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On October 24 2013 14:22 TheYango wrote:
It's trying to address a symptom of the problem, not the cause. That's what's wrong with it, and what's wrong with Riot's entire mindset toward addressing the issue of farm on the lower positions.
Giving junglers cost-efficient fighting items doesn't change their role. So long as multiplicative scaling on both offensive and defensive stats is as extreme as it is in LoL, there's not much incentive to have dispersed farm over concentrated farm. As I've mentioned before, laning phase farm is only half the picture when it comes to having a farmed jungler. It has to be appropriate for you to give him time to split-push, farm pushed lanes, etc. and that only changes based on the relative farm priority of the 5 heroes in the game, which is, again, in turn a product of multiplicative scaling.
If you want to favor dispersed farm, then the way to do it is to drastically reduce the amount of Crit, Armor Pen, MPen, CDR, MR, and Armor available on items. Make scaling only somewhat multiplicative over a few stats (e.g. mostly only ADxAS on AD carries with some crit or armor pen splashed from specific items if it suits the game) and almost linear in most cases (AP scaling and defensive item scaling), and you favor dispersed farm because the value of the AD carry's 4th item doesn't vastly outstrip everyone else's next item because his damage isn't a fourth-order function of his net worth.
I would disagree that multiplicative scaling is the root cause, at least as far as jungling is concerned. A jungler can potentially benefit from multiplicative scaling as well as anyone else. The problem is that the current jungle is predisposed against this.
In short, a jungler trying to farm: - Gives up early map pressure.
- Doesn't get as much farm as a lane unless they tax.
- Hurts lanes further by preventing them from taking jungle camps.
These three faults together make it prohibitive for junglers to take farm priority. If they farm early their lanes are hurt, but they can't farm later because they're too far behind for it to matter (unless they were wildly successful with their ganks).
That's not to say that dampening the effects of multiplicative scaling wouldn't help, but that the root problem is "farming the jungle generally hurts the team more than it helps".
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On October 24 2013 15:21 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2013 15:08 Ryuu314 wrote:
To be completely honest, I'm always apprehensive whenever I see a Morello post because even after three, relatively successful seasons, I'm still apprehensive about the fact that the head of live balance is only a Silver level player. On top of that, Riot has had moments in its balancing history where they've definitely fucked up big time and only created new issues. On one level it kinda makes sense to have your head of live balance in the skill level of the majority of players. Not to mention the best Coach/manager is not the best player or the best engineer/salesperson whatever. But truly I believe that being a silver player doesn't make him better at balancing necessarily I'm just saying it doesn't necessarily make him worse either.
I disagree. It may be good to have a few silver players on staff, but not your head of live balance. Its similar to asking the community for advice. One of the major characteristics of a poor player is a lack of understanding of the game. This poor understanding makes them very unqualified to propose solutions to problems. A bad player will often propose changes that would make the problem infinitely worse or completely destroy the game, but it sounds good to them. The best coach may not have been a world champion but silver league is like JV high school level play. Also pretty much all the great managers and coaches were very good at their field.
I'm very wary of any high up in a company who has been there from the very beginning. It could be ok if he kept an incredibly humble attitude but that certainly doesn't seem to be the case. I've been very unimpressed at some of the things I've heard come out of Morello's mouth, but generally the balance team has done a solid job.
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On October 24 2013 15:18 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2013 14:55 TheYango wrote:On October 24 2013 13:54 LaM wrote:On October 24 2013 13:49 GhandiEAGLE wrote:
Lets get off our high horse here, GD. I know we normally assume we have a pedigree as a whole above other communities, but we have to remember that we're not all geniuses, and that they do get paid. Just because we suggested it doesn't mean it was a good idea. I usually don't mind the elitism we tend to have here, but tone it down guys, it's getting pretty crazy these last few days. My number one pet peeve about TL is the godlike status everybody has because this is such an elite, intellectual, SC pro forum. Lol. Mine is that people whine about blind pessimism when blind optimism is just as bad. I disagree, 3 reasons. Reason 1: pessimism is far far far more common. So there is farm more times when it is wrong. Not % based but in total times wrong. Reason 2: being wrong in a negative sense causes more harm and rarely does anything good. For example some one sends you a text if you read as a insult. You are mad, or hurt, whether it was a insult or not. If you don't read it as a insult, so without sarcasm, you are not mad and if the person didn't mean it great, if they did mean it as a insult, it didn't work, since you were not sad or mad. Either way a good out come. Most of the time (obviously not to crazy extremes) positive thinking leads to positive out comes. There has been many studies proving this. Reason 3: For some annoying reason 95% (made up number meaning most) pessimists claim they are "simply realists" and no matter how many times they are wrong they continue to think of themselves as realists. Realists, understand there is a chance at both positive and negative outcomes. These people tend to not realize how much negativity they bring to there own situation, and in the lol world are those that believe they are in elo hell and are way better then there elo. When in fact they are probably being negative in game bringing all there team down, or just to themselves bringing there own play down.
So you're saying we should be optimistic after being constantly disappointed? okay.
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On October 24 2013 15:21 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2013 15:08 Ryuu314 wrote:
To be completely honest, I'm always apprehensive whenever I see a Morello post because even after three, relatively successful seasons, I'm still apprehensive about the fact that the head of live balance is only a Silver level player. On top of that, Riot has had moments in its balancing history where they've definitely fucked up big time and only created new issues. On one level it kinda makes sense to have your head of live balance in the skill level of the majority of players. Not to mention the best Coach/manager is not the best player or the best engineer/salesperson whatever. But truly I believe that being a silver player doesn't make him better at balancing necessarily I'm just saying it doesn't necessarily make him worse either.
Head of live balance having never played the game at a high level is really, really questionable for me. For him, hearing the issues from some of his balance team(some of which are quite high on soloq ladder, no doubt about that), is different than experiencing the issues first hand, and being able to discuss why X happens with another designer.
Yes I know he's undoubtedly the most senior balance designer by far, but that doesn't mean he's the best.
You know what I heard from my silver friend?
"You guys don't ban amumu? He's so fucking broken I don't know why you wouldn't ban him"
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Constantly disappointed?
What's disappointed you?
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On October 24 2013 15:35 Ketara wrote:
Constantly disappointed?
What's disappointed you?
"Sustain is broken" - right before release rengar
"AP nid is a bit strong" nerfs bruiser nid
"Jayce is too strong" layer nerf after nerf after nerf without waiting for repercussions to occur.
Urgot - Because having one champion who is good at dumping on the meta(glass cannon ADC's) is bad
Targeted nerfing of pocket strats, because LoL can't be a dynamic game.
Generally speaking, they haven't been too good at targeting nerfs at core issues of imbalance, tending towards the sledgehammer rather than the wrench.
Oh, and they've basically given up on trying to control mana cost creep. Now every ultimate needs to top out at 100 mana because you can't be bothered to have to save mana for more than that. I mean why should a skill cost more than 100 mana, that's like 10% of a zero mana item champs pool lategame.
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Go to watch doublelift stream and azubu just keeps looping a 11 minute vod of him streaming earlier. Now I wouldn't care IF IT DIDN'T INSIST HE WAS LIVE
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You guys taking issue with Morello being a silver player just sound kind of ignorant. I don't mean that as insulting as it likely comes off, I just can't think of another way to word it without losing meaning (or possibly suggesting something I don't mean). I'm not an apologist of the guy, he is definitely not an all-star at presenting himself sometimes - and that's an automatic way to generate endless critics regardless of how good you are behind closed doors.
But the head of anything the size of a department like that is largely responsible for managing a process, not being some type of omnipotent presence in said process. It's not like most of the ideas that even come from create are Morello's ideas. He's simply the guy in charge of integrating those ideas. I don't have any particular insight into how the Riot balance team works, but in many other situations, Morello wouldn't even be making a single decision about balance; he would be the guy managing all the other guys making those decisions and then interfacing all that information with other departments/the public. Some of the most prestigious or accomplished teams/projects/etc at major companies are headed by a person with virtually no working/intimate knowledge of the actual work, they are simply a great person at managing and organizing all the moving parts.
In this case, given how the game grew, I'm sure Morello still has some input into actual decisions/suggestions/balance - but you guys need to realize that as far as public interfacing goes, he's simply a figurehead for something much more substantial.
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Morello is the George Lucas of lol ATM. Created a great universe, but didn't understand why it was great, so his proposals only touch the surface (light sabers, boba fett's armor, mini wookies, etc), instead of exploring the richness of the world (Characters, adventure, adversity).
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If ranking was really all that relevant no one would listen to that Gold V scrub with the red hammer.
Edit: I'm not saying that Morello is fantastic, but worrying about his balancing because he's Silver I is only one step above worrying about his balancing because he wears glasses.
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On October 24 2013 15:53 asymptotech wrote:
You guys taking issue with Morello being a silver player just sound kind of ignorant. I don't mean that as insulting as it likely comes off, I just can't think of another way to word it without losing meaning (or possibly suggesting something I don't mean). I'm not an apologist of the guy, he is definitely not an all-star at presenting himself sometimes - and that's an automatic way to generate endless critics regardless of how good you are behind closed doors.
But the head of anything the size of a department like that is largely responsible for managing a process, not being some type of omnipotent presence in said process. It's not like most of the ideas that even come from create are Morello's ideas. He's simply the guy in charge of integrating those ideas. I don't have any particular insight into how the Riot balance team works, but in many other situations, Morello wouldn't even be making a single decision about balance; he would be the guy managing all the other guys making those decisions and then interfacing all that information with other departments/the public. Some of the most prestigious or accomplished teams/projects/etc at major companies are headed by a person with virtually no working/intimate knowledge of the actual work, they are simply a great person at managing and organizing all the moving parts.
In this case, given how the game grew, I'm sure Morello still has some input into actual decisions/suggestions/balance - but you guys need to realize that as far as public interfacing goes, he's simply a figurehead for something much more substantial.
I don't think we have the knowledge to say that. For all we know Morello does shoot down lots of ideas from his teams and manages game balance with an iron fist. Companies do have heads that do that.
That said, every time the Riot balance team does something stupid, something you don't agree with, they're not insulting your mother and not necessarily making the game boring to play.
Steve Jobs was known for how he ran his company. The calculator app was something he rejected so many times that the developers made him a gui to let him design the calculator himself.
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On October 24 2013 15:42 Amui wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2013 15:35 Ketara wrote:
Constantly disappointed?
What's disappointed you? "Sustain is broken" - right before release rengar "AP nid is a bit strong" nerfs bruiser nid "Jayce is too strong" layer nerf after nerf after nerf without waiting for repercussions to occur. Targeted nerfing of pocket strats, because LoL can't be a dynamic game. Generally speaking, they haven't been too good at targeting nerfs at core issues of imbalance, tending towards the sledgehammer rather than the wrench. Oh, and they've basically given up on trying to control mana cost creep. Now every ultimate needs to top out at 100 mana because you can't be bothered to have to save mana for more than that. I mean why should a skill cost more than 100 mana, that's like 10% of a zero mana item champs pool lategame.
I'm hoping it will mean a nerf/significant change to mana items (cough *tear*) one day.
Also I thought Morello was just the design/vision. Don't other people deal with the hard numbers? Not trying to defend , just thought saying he's in charge of balance was different to what I've heard. Could be making it up though.
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Removing the symptom is easy to do, will have the direct effect you want (although also extra unintended but who cares about that), and gives the community something to respond to.
This works well for things like champion balance because most champions are considered OU in the timeframe of the current playstyle of the game, whether that is a phase, or because the optimal way to play the game is in fact that style. But waiting for players to adapt to the style or fixing underlying game issues is very difficult, does not produce immediate results, and may not make the symptom go away. So thus its easier to nerf MF's ult when everyone is crying OP, even though a MF based comp wouldn't do that great in the current lane swapping push oriented game.
This doesn't work well for game style though, because most of the time that is the optimal way to play the game. So trying to stop 3v1 and tower dives by nerfing tower dives doesn't really work. (Although they could've discouraged 2v1 by reverting the XP sharing buffs and minion aggro buffs zzzzz).
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On October 24 2013 16:01 Seuss wrote:
If ranking was really all that relevant no one would listen to that Gold V scrub with the red hammer.
Edit: I'm not saying that Morello is fantastic, but worrying about his balancing because he's Silver I is only one step above worrying about his balancing because he wears glasses.
Dunno, when I was silver I don't feel like I really understood anything about the game in retrospect. I thought I did, but I was pretty sorely mistaken on a few counts. I guess there may be some extreme cases of people who have poor mechanics but decent game understanding?
I feel like with gold you at least have to sort of understand the game. Not talking basement dweller gold 5's either, but someone who is consistently that level.
I guess it doesn't take a genius to realize when something is super out of line. But finer balance points? I think so. For example- the random as hell Triforce buff at the end of the season that had a massive effect on the champion pool at worlds. Wouldn't someone with enough experience go "Hey guys, this is probably going to elevate Jax quite a bit out of nowhere, not to mention every ADC that likes Triforce... do we really want to do that?"
Although I feel even someone who is silver should have caught that.. but I guess my perception of how the game operates and where it should be going is quite different from Riot's, so beats me.
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Note, the triforce change was not to the item specifically, but to the change made to Phage, and Phage being a build-up to Triforce and having the new passive on triforce being collateral damage, so to speak.
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That's not true, they increased the Triforce proc to 200% from 150%. That was not at all related to phage. If they had just changed phage, that probably would have been a much more understandable change.
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Hey Gangplankers, is there any reason not to build GP AP? (OP?)
In theory it ought to be about the same but tankier, and dealing ap instead of ad which would be terribly convenient if the other solo laner went ad (delete zed riot plz).
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And how do you deal damage with ap gp before lichbane ?
Let's be serious, tried it, doesn't work. Squishy as fuck, scurvy too long cd. When ult is down you're a freekill.
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EPT
