EPT[Patch 3.12] (j/k) Jinx General Discussion - Page 312
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UnKooL
Korea (South)1667 Posts
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On October 24 2013 13:09 upperbound wrote: Well clearly they don't share one iota of TL GD perspective on game improvement, but given how radically different it is it seems hard to have any opinion at all other than "well, that's not how I would have done it" Are you surprised? Even the "smash" rework of Olaf is basically the opposite of everything we suggested. | ||
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GhandiEAGLE
United States20754 Posts
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
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LaM
United States1321 Posts
On October 24 2013 13:49 GhandiEAGLE wrote: Lets get off our high horse here, GD. I know we normally assume we have a pedigree as a whole above other communities, but we have to remember that we're not all geniuses, and that they do get paid. Just because we suggested it doesn't mean it was a good idea. I usually don't mind the elitism we tend to have here, but tone it down guys, it's getting pretty crazy these last few days. My number one pet peeve about TL is the godlike status everybody has because this is such an elite, intellectual, SC pro forum. Lol. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
Exceptions like the League system. Clamping needs to die in a fucking fire. | ||
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Cedstick
Canada3336 Posts
On October 24 2013 13:54 LaM wrote: My number one pet peeve about TL is the godlike status everybody has because this is such an elite, intellectual, SC pro forum. Lol. Someone's gotta be the Elitist Jerks of a game. | ||
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thenexusp
United States3721 Posts
On October 24 2013 13:51 Seuss wrote: I'm fairly certain that adding more jungle camps has been suggested in this forum before, but no one thought Riot would ever do it. I'm pretty sure it was obvious they were going to do it when Morello repeatedly said things to the tune of "We want to change the geometry of the jungle but we can't do it until s4" such as this: http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=39933646#post39933646 | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
the mindset/meta of having a poor as fuck ward bitch support and a second support in the jungler is more or less a holdover/natural progression of the game from dota and league being based off of dota at its core. if they can change the paradigm there's not necessarily anything wrong with it assuming Riot doesn't fuck up overall balance. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
Giving junglers cost-efficient fighting items doesn't change their role. So long as multiplicative scaling on both offensive and defensive stats is as extreme as it is in LoL, there's not much incentive to have dispersed farm over concentrated farm. As I've mentioned before, laning phase farm is only half the picture when it comes to having a farmed jungler. It has to be appropriate for you to give him time to split-push, farm pushed lanes, etc. and that only changes based on the relative farm priority of the 5 heroes in the game, which is, again, in turn a product of multiplicative scaling. If you want to favor dispersed farm, then the way to do it is to drastically reduce the amount of Crit, Armor Pen, MPen, CDR, MR, and Armor available on items. Make scaling only somewhat multiplicative over a few stats (e.g. mostly only ADxAS on AD carries with some crit or armor pen splashed from specific items if it suits the game) and almost linear in most cases (AP scaling and defensive item scaling), and you favor dispersed farm because the value of the AD carry's 4th item doesn't vastly outstrip everyone else's next item because his damage isn't a fourth-order function of his net worth. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35174 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/WC33jNf.jpg) According to Mancloud, this is where the new spawn is. | ||
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obesechicken13
United States10467 Posts
On October 24 2013 14:34 Gahlo wrote: According to Mancloud, this is where the new spawn is. That's not a part of the map people walk through anyways. It's also possible to place wards so you can see if someone is going for their blue buff or that camp, no? | ||
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Kinie
United States3106 Posts
On October 24 2013 14:34 Gahlo wrote: According to Mancloud, this is where the new spawn is. Uhh... That's the only place it could fit without doing a major jungle graphics change (like moving walls around), but that doesn't seem to make jungle farming any easier unless they also move the buffs around as well. Like what would the farm path be at start: buff 1 > buff 2 > gank lane > doing a south to north or north to south sweep of the enemy camps? On October 24 2013 14:38 obesechicken13 wrote: Jinx is free this week. I just tried her, and, doesn't she get hard countered by someone like Ezreal who can just dodge her WE with his blink? Maybe it's not that simple. Any high mobility ADC with a good poke is able to "hard counter" her. That basically means Ezreal, Corki (post 6) and Caitlyn, IN THEORY, are able to beat/survive against her in lane. In practice + my experience, anyone with good poke skills and keeps moving in lane should survive, so Varus (along with the 3 above ADCs) can survive in lane vs. her and be fine in terms of farm. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On October 24 2013 13:51 Seuss wrote: I'm fairly certain that adding more jungle camps has been suggested in this forum before, but no one thought Riot would ever do it. I've said it could be a decent idea, but... On October 24 2013 14:34 Gahlo wrote: According to Mancloud, this is where the new spawn is. That spawn point really just makes it so duo lanes can tax the jungle equally no matter where they set up/later on solo laners can't get a cs advantage based solely on blue/purple. It doesn't serve to drag the jungler away from the lanes, which should be the purpose of putting more farm in the jungle. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On October 24 2013 13:54 LaM wrote: My number one pet peeve about TL is the godlike status everybody has because this is such an elite, intellectual, SC pro forum. Lol. Mine is that people whine about blind pessimism when blind optimism is just as bad. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On October 24 2013 14:22 TheYango wrote: It's trying to address a symptom of the problem, not the cause. That's what's wrong with it, and what's wrong with Riot's entire mindset toward addressing the issue of farm on the lower positions. Giving junglers cost-efficient fighting items doesn't change their role. So long as multiplicative scaling on both offensive and defensive stats is as extreme as it is in LoL, there's not much incentive to have dispersed farm over concentrated farm. As I've mentioned before, laning phase farm is only half the picture when it comes to having a farmed jungler. It has to be appropriate for you to give him time to split-push, farm pushed lanes, etc. and that only changes based on the relative farm priority of the 5 heroes in the game, which is, again, in turn a product of multiplicative scaling. If you want to favor dispersed farm, then the way to do it is to drastically reduce the amount of Crit, Armor Pen, MPen, CDR, MR, and Armor available on items. Make scaling only somewhat multiplicative over a few stats (e.g. mostly only ADxAS on AD carries with some crit or armor pen splashed from specific items if it suits the game) and almost linear in most cases (AP scaling and defensive item scaling), and you favor dispersed farm because the value of the AD carry's 4th item doesn't vastly outstrip everyone else's next item because his damage isn't a fourth-order function of his net worth. Dunno if I completely agree with that. Multiplicative stats is not the entire reason why teams favor concentrating farm; it certainly exacerbates the problem but it's not the entire cause. Take Dota as an example. Multiplicative stats are virtually non-existent in Dota and while heroes double dip offense and defense via stats, you don't really see item scaling the way you do in League yet Dota also favors concentrated farm. Concentrated farm is more an issue of efficiency more than anything. If you have one person farming, you can get that big item twice as fast than if you have two people splitting the farm equally, giving your team an overall power spike earlier to take advantage of. I agree that the Bloodrazer's supposed change isn't going to solve the problem of carry jungling unless the scaling on it is absolutely ridiculous since laning is only half the picture. However, giving junglers/supports alternate ways to gain scaling whether it's via artificial means like the supposed Bloodrazer or gold generation items or what have you, allows Riot to get around the farm efficiency issue. Even if multiplicative scaling was non-existent, teams would still favor concentrating their farm since they can get big items going faster. So long as there is a finite number of minions to be killed on the map at a time, it's always going to be more efficient to concentrate minion kills. In other words, I think the cause of concentrated farm is a fundamental part of the moba design that can't really be changed, meaning Riot's only solution is to address the issues caused by moba design. | ||
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GhandiEAGLE
United States20754 Posts
Also, that TL movie section... lol you'd think there hasn't been a piece of quality cinema in forty years, the amount of depression they infuse into those conversations xD | ||
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
also teams tend to let the nonscaling heroes get items that do not contribute to this exponential damage curve that adc's are locked into. items that give team wide buffs is an existing example. potential utility items can better diversify this pool of items that can make supports and junglers feel useful without changing the economic balance of the game too much. | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
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