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But that requires math.. -_-"
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On September 11 2013 02:55 onlywonderboy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2013 02:52 MattBarry wrote:On September 11 2013 02:49 onlywonderboy wrote: Nothing sounds less appealing than a Trynd coming out of the Jungle after 30 minutes with enough farm to murder your entire team. Making counter jungling required to shut down a champ in soloq sounds terrible Why. It'll just force people to approach the game differently, that sounds fine to me I think you're giving the general player base far too much credit. I lack faith in the community's ability to adapt to this different play style specifically. It requires more coordination than most soloq teams have. Riot would never allow it. I don't buy it. There's a lot of situations in solo queue that are impossible without coordination (like shutting down fucking Kass).
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I do believe Riot hinted at geometry changes to the jungle in S4, so the whole fix to not being able to fix the jungle without turning it inside out might just be to turn it inside out.
On September 11 2013 02:56 MattBarry wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2013 02:55 onlywonderboy wrote:On September 11 2013 02:52 MattBarry wrote:On September 11 2013 02:49 onlywonderboy wrote: Nothing sounds less appealing than a Trynd coming out of the Jungle after 30 minutes with enough farm to murder your entire team. Making counter jungling required to shut down a champ in soloq sounds terrible Why. It'll just force people to approach the game differently, that sounds fine to me I think you're giving the general player base far too much credit. I lack faith in the community's ability to adapt to this different play style specifically. It requires more coordination than most soloq teams have. Riot would never allow it. I don't buy it. There's a lot of situations in solo queue that are impossible without coordination (like shutting down fucking Kass). And Kass was permaban status for the longest time in S2.
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United States23745 Posts
On September 11 2013 02:56 MattBarry wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2013 02:55 onlywonderboy wrote:On September 11 2013 02:52 MattBarry wrote:On September 11 2013 02:49 onlywonderboy wrote: Nothing sounds less appealing than a Trynd coming out of the Jungle after 30 minutes with enough farm to murder your entire team. Making counter jungling required to shut down a champ in soloq sounds terrible Why. It'll just force people to approach the game differently, that sounds fine to me I think you're giving the general player base far too much credit. I lack faith in the community's ability to adapt to this different play style specifically. It requires more coordination than most soloq teams have. Riot would never allow it. I don't buy it. There's a lot of situations in solo queue that are impossible without coordination (like shutting down fucking Kass). Well Morello did just mention in a post that he thinks Kass is too strong...
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On September 11 2013 02:58 onlywonderboy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2013 02:56 MattBarry wrote:On September 11 2013 02:55 onlywonderboy wrote:On September 11 2013 02:52 MattBarry wrote:On September 11 2013 02:49 onlywonderboy wrote: Nothing sounds less appealing than a Trynd coming out of the Jungle after 30 minutes with enough farm to murder your entire team. Making counter jungling required to shut down a champ in soloq sounds terrible Why. It'll just force people to approach the game differently, that sounds fine to me I think you're giving the general player base far too much credit. I lack faith in the community's ability to adapt to this different play style specifically. It requires more coordination than most soloq teams have. Riot would never allow it. I don't buy it. There's a lot of situations in solo queue that are impossible without coordination (like shutting down fucking Kass). Well Morello did just mention in a post that he thinks Kass is too strong... I mean even if jungling becomes a carry role in solo queue, does it really outmatch early jungle pressure?
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United States23745 Posts
On September 11 2013 03:02 MattBarry wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2013 02:58 onlywonderboy wrote:On September 11 2013 02:56 MattBarry wrote:On September 11 2013 02:55 onlywonderboy wrote:On September 11 2013 02:52 MattBarry wrote:On September 11 2013 02:49 onlywonderboy wrote: Nothing sounds less appealing than a Trynd coming out of the Jungle after 30 minutes with enough farm to murder your entire team. Making counter jungling required to shut down a champ in soloq sounds terrible Why. It'll just force people to approach the game differently, that sounds fine to me I think you're giving the general player base far too much credit. I lack faith in the community's ability to adapt to this different play style specifically. It requires more coordination than most soloq teams have. Riot would never allow it. I don't buy it. There's a lot of situations in solo queue that are impossible without coordination (like shutting down fucking Kass). Well Morello did just mention in a post that he thinks Kass is too strong... I mean even if jungling becomes a carry role in solo queue, does it really outmatch early jungle pressure? Impossible to say without the actual scenario becoming a reality. Depends on how hard the carry Jungler scales and if your lanes would play safe if they knew you were on a carry Jungler and the enemy is on a ganking Jungler. So I guess it's kind of a moot point in the end. But I'll been very outspoken about how I'm alright with the Jungler acting as a second support, so that's just something a lot of people disagree with.
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On September 11 2013 03:05 onlywonderboy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2013 03:02 MattBarry wrote:On September 11 2013 02:58 onlywonderboy wrote:On September 11 2013 02:56 MattBarry wrote:On September 11 2013 02:55 onlywonderboy wrote:On September 11 2013 02:52 MattBarry wrote:On September 11 2013 02:49 onlywonderboy wrote: Nothing sounds less appealing than a Trynd coming out of the Jungle after 30 minutes with enough farm to murder your entire team. Making counter jungling required to shut down a champ in soloq sounds terrible Why. It'll just force people to approach the game differently, that sounds fine to me I think you're giving the general player base far too much credit. I lack faith in the community's ability to adapt to this different play style specifically. It requires more coordination than most soloq teams have. Riot would never allow it. I don't buy it. There's a lot of situations in solo queue that are impossible without coordination (like shutting down fucking Kass). Well Morello did just mention in a post that he thinks Kass is too strong... I mean even if jungling becomes a carry role in solo queue, does it really outmatch early jungle pressure? Impossible to say without the actual scenario becoming a reality. Depends on how hard the carry Jungler scales and if your lanes would play safe if they knew you were on a carry Jungler and the enemy is on a ganking Jungler. So I guess it's kind of a moot point in the end. But I'll been very outspoken about how I'm alright with the Jungler acting as a second support, so that's just something a lot of people disagree with. I like playing the current jungle, but that doesn't mean the option shouldn't exist to play a farming monster carry jungler
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On September 11 2013 02:26 kainzero wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2013 02:21 Clinic wrote: [Patch 3.11] Worlds Trash Talk and Discussion
it'd be so much more fun if there weren't a clearly dominant region by which i mean na North Asia is very dominant But gambit gaming isn't even that strong
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On September 11 2013 03:05 onlywonderboy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2013 03:02 MattBarry wrote:On September 11 2013 02:58 onlywonderboy wrote:On September 11 2013 02:56 MattBarry wrote:On September 11 2013 02:55 onlywonderboy wrote:On September 11 2013 02:52 MattBarry wrote:On September 11 2013 02:49 onlywonderboy wrote: Nothing sounds less appealing than a Trynd coming out of the Jungle after 30 minutes with enough farm to murder your entire team. Making counter jungling required to shut down a champ in soloq sounds terrible Why. It'll just force people to approach the game differently, that sounds fine to me I think you're giving the general player base far too much credit. I lack faith in the community's ability to adapt to this different play style specifically. It requires more coordination than most soloq teams have. Riot would never allow it. I don't buy it. There's a lot of situations in solo queue that are impossible without coordination (like shutting down fucking Kass). Well Morello did just mention in a post that he thinks Kass is too strong... I mean even if jungling becomes a carry role in solo queue, does it really outmatch early jungle pressure? Impossible to say without the actual scenario becoming a reality. Depends on how hard the carry Jungler scales and if your lanes would play safe if they knew you were on a carry Jungler and the enemy is on a ganking Jungler. So I guess it's kind of a moot point in the end. But I'll been very outspoken about how I'm alright with the Jungler acting as a second support, so that's just something a lot of people disagree with.
I disagree with it because I think the current jungle (also S2 Jungle) is really boring to play against. All they really did in the new jungle is replace Maokai with Jarvan. This just makes the Melle-Ranged dynamic all the more favored to ranged. And the current jungle makes dedicating yourself to shut down the other teams biggest hypercarry, a no brainer. There is really no punishment for camping a lane (as long as you are not sitting on a ward).
And vision is the other problem. Riot either needs to make vision free (like giving everyone a ward slot where you can buy a ward at any time, anywhere on the map for 25 Gold), or make vision expensive, and make farming the jungle good.
The half-in-half-out version we have of vision right now, on top of the fact that each bush is basically a Schrodinger's Cat for the jungler after the 3:30 mark, and that is really what is unhealthy about the jungle role right now.
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United States47024 Posts
"Melee-ranged" dynamic is also really a product of itemization as well.
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On September 11 2013 02:52 kainzero wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2013 02:33 overt wrote:On September 11 2013 01:53 kainzero wrote: I am tired of logic and who "should" win.
Where are the fanboys?!
I don't care if China looks weak or if they said they went 50-50 in scrims against Korea. I like OMG. Gogoing's manliness reminds me of Reach, and then he proxies with Mundo at the tier 2 bottom tower even when it's 5v5 so even his playstyle is manly as hell.
And then in NA you have Regi / Dyrus having girlfriend fights and reddit drama and a fat guy who finished 3rd to barely qualify for regionals and trash talks 4th place while fanboys cry out "shots fired lolol."
Gogoing doesn't fire shots. He punches you in the face while eating raw meat. Fuck OMG. I want to see Royal Club body people with Fizz+Annie until the finals. Assuming C9 loses in quarters the team I want to win the most is Royal. SKT is team #3 because I legitimately feel they're the most 'deserving' team. But the coolest story would be Royal winning with Wh1t3z and Tabe considering they've been in the pro scene for so long. I respect that. I respect the Fizz, the Kass, the Annie, Uzi's stellar ADC play, etc. But look at Lucky. I mean, that guy looks like a wreck. We all joke about pdd_520kg, but he looks pretty jolly and a happy guy. And then you look at Lucky and it's just... whoa, geez. I feel tired just looking at you.
I don't care about Lucky or Godlike as much as I fanboy over Wh1t3z and Tabe. IEM Guangzhou 2012 never forget.
(Uzi really is stellar though).
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I'm not a fan of how everyone refers to the S3 jungle as one singular thing. The S3 jungle has been multiple things, and I feel lumping them together is silly.
I like the most current version of the jungle, it's the closest I have ever seen (I never played S1 jungle) that allows powerfarming or gank heavy styles. I can play Shyv and rack up 200+ CS at 30 mins~ or I can play Maokai and farm champs and buff camps only, both work.
While there needs to be some work done (ex: something to stop bot/top lane from taking my damn golems), but this version is pretty badass.
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Seriously though. Bears to win worlds. Cuz taiwanese pride.
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On September 11 2013 02:34 phyvo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2013 01:02 Seuss wrote:I agree with TheYango on the jungle/support gold issue, but I'm going to illuminate the problem from a different angle. + Show Spoiler [Jungle/Support Income] +You may recall that in past I predicted farming junglers would become viable. In fact, I made this prediction twice. The first time I thought the ubiquitous vision from Sightstones and the apparent farm-centric focus of the new jungle would be prohibitive for ganking. The second time Riot increased the jungle's value, enough that I thought it would be the final push to make farming junglers competitive. When Riot changed the jungle in a way which might have benefited farming junglers again, I kept my mouth shut.
There were two basic problems I overlooked when I made my errant predictions. First, the threat of a jungler's gank is extremely valuable. The worth of a gank can't be readily measured in gold, but simply the threat of it has a huge impact on the game. Second, Riot cannot make jungle camps unclearable by laners without making them unclearable by junglers. Unless every jungle camp becomes as difficult as Dragon/Baron, laners can and will take them for themselves. My predictions failed because simple gold changes will never allow farming to match or supersede ganking so long as laners can take camps themselves (at least not without causing other, larger balance issues).
That's not a problem Riot can solve without tearing the jungle apart and flipping it inside out, and it's arguably not even the root cause. It's ironic that Morello talks about problems vs symptoms, because that's exactly the case here. Riot wants to increase jungler/support income because they can't afford cool items, but being unable to afford something is as much a function of price as it is income. The actual problem is that junglers and supports can't buy cool items because they're too expensive. So my conclusion is the same as TheYango's. If Riot wants to make junglers and supports feel richer, they need cheap, slot-inefficient items with cool powers. Shurelia's/Shard/Ohmwrecker et al. need to have prices similar to a Sightstone. I don't think Riot considers that an acceptable solution. Riot is trying to fix income, Morello outright stated it. Maybe they think cheap items designate supports and junglers as second class citizens and would be too hard to fit into the game without other champs buying them. But I don't see how they're going to fix it without vastly changing the game. The only way to equalize income is to remove the team's ability to unequalize it and I don't see how you're going to do that short of demolishing last hitting somehow.
Exactly. Nothing short of humongous changes will "fix" income inequality, and Riot will turn everything upside down while ultimately targeting the symptom. This is akin to a doctor prescribing throat surgery in order to deal with a cough, it's probably going to do more harm than good and won't solve the problem either.
They might be able to "fix" jungling without completely destroying it, but supporting is just going to be a nightmare. Nothing less drastic than a "Last-Hit Assist" mechanic is going to cut it, and any such measure is going to have implications and consequences that no one sees coming (in addition to all the obvious problems).
On September 11 2013 02:34 phyvo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2013 01:02 Seuss wrote:+ Show Spoiler [Mobility Creep] +Before I begin, I'm focused primarily on gap closers/creators. Movement speed boosts are a form of mobility, but are generally far, far less problematic due to the mechanics of slows.
I don't really like Morello's perspective on the issue, for a few reasons.
First, I don't think he appreciates how mobility changes the game. He cites True Damage and %HP Damage as sister mechanics which require Riot to make sure "some cost is paid", but because you can itemize around them True Damage and %HP Damage don't dramatically alter the viability of champions. Mobility does, and numerous champions have suffered at one time or another due to mobility creep.
As a result, mobility creep leads to power creep. The more mobility becomes the norm, the more you have to give a champion who lacks it. Kog'maw has been MIA for practically all of Season 3 because he lacks both mobility and anything special to make up for it. Draven and Twitch (post-remake) became popular due to the sheer damage they were given in compensation for their lack of mobility.
In short, there's a reason that 9 out of the last 10 champions had mobility, with the sole excludee being a support.
Second, Morello glosses over the issues with mobility. When LoL launched only 14 out of the original 40 champions had gap closers. Today roughly 56 champions have gap closers, an increase from 32% of champions to 49%. Even if the ratio had remained the same, having a greater and greater available pool of gap-closing champions alters the landscape, especially when most of those champions are bruisers/assassins/initiators.
I don't think Morello is out and out wrong, but I'm disappointed because it sounds like we won't be reversing the current trends. Look forward to 70%+ of all new champions having gap closers. I agree with Morello that mobility is interesting and fun. While champs like singed are pretty neat there's nothing like going zoom zoom across the battlefield and mobility *can* allow you to make lots of difficult positioning decisions from moment to moment (see-> mad Lee Sin plays, epic Zed duels, and wavedashing in SSBM vs... tripping in Brawl). Flash is the poster child here: it's obviously OP but we keep it around because the game is more fun as a result. At the same time as mobility increases Riot continues to underestimate the impact that it has, very similar to how they underestimate range nerfs on skills and AAs. Case in point, Zac and his ridiculous catapult range on a low CD skill when maxed given league of spirit visage.
Right. The problem I have with every champion and their twin brother having mobility isn't that mobility is inherently bad, it's that Riot has a bad track record when it comes to power creep. I can understand that more mobility is fun, but I don't have faith that it will stop there.
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United States23745 Posts
On September 11 2013 03:17 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2013 03:05 onlywonderboy wrote:On September 11 2013 03:02 MattBarry wrote:On September 11 2013 02:58 onlywonderboy wrote:On September 11 2013 02:56 MattBarry wrote:On September 11 2013 02:55 onlywonderboy wrote:On September 11 2013 02:52 MattBarry wrote:On September 11 2013 02:49 onlywonderboy wrote: Nothing sounds less appealing than a Trynd coming out of the Jungle after 30 minutes with enough farm to murder your entire team. Making counter jungling required to shut down a champ in soloq sounds terrible Why. It'll just force people to approach the game differently, that sounds fine to me I think you're giving the general player base far too much credit. I lack faith in the community's ability to adapt to this different play style specifically. It requires more coordination than most soloq teams have. Riot would never allow it. I don't buy it. There's a lot of situations in solo queue that are impossible without coordination (like shutting down fucking Kass). Well Morello did just mention in a post that he thinks Kass is too strong... I mean even if jungling becomes a carry role in solo queue, does it really outmatch early jungle pressure? Impossible to say without the actual scenario becoming a reality. Depends on how hard the carry Jungler scales and if your lanes would play safe if they knew you were on a carry Jungler and the enemy is on a ganking Jungler. So I guess it's kind of a moot point in the end. But I'll been very outspoken about how I'm alright with the Jungler acting as a second support, so that's just something a lot of people disagree with. I disagree with it because I think the current jungle (also S2 Jungle) is really boring to play against. All they really did in the new jungle is replace Maokai with Jarvan. This just makes the Melle-Ranged dynamic all the more favored to ranged. And the current jungle makes dedicating yourself to shut down the other teams biggest hypercarry, a no brainer. There is really no punishment for camping a lane (as long as you are not sitting on a ward). And vision is the other problem. Riot either needs to make vision free (like giving everyone a ward slot where you can buy a ward at any time, anywhere on the map for 25 Gold), or make vision expensive, and make farming the jungle good. The half-in-half-out version we have of vision right now, on top of the fact that each bush is basically a Schrodinger's Cat for the jungler after the 3:30 mark, and that is really what is unhealthy about the jungle role right now. I agree vision is an issue.
I just don't see what's fun about playing PvE for most of the game and coming out of the Jungle to murder everyone (or playing against it). I guess people want options, but I can't imagine Riot ever finding a way to proberly balance the Jungle so both farming and ganking are viable options depending on the champ/situation, I feel like they will always lean one way or the other.
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On September 11 2013 03:25 Diamond wrote: I like how everyone refers to the S3 jungle as one singular thing. The S3 jungle has been multiple things, and I feel lumping them together is silly.
I like the most current version of the jungle, it's the closest I have ever seen (I never played S1 jungle) that allows powerfarming or gank heavy styles. I can play Shyv and rack up 200+ CS at 30 mins~ or I can play Maokai and farm champs and buff camps only, both work.
While there needs to be some work done (ex: something to stop bot/top lane from taking my damn golems), but this version is pretty badass. Make camps nearly unkillable without the spirit items. It would work but I wouldn't like it, feels like a band-aid fix
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United Kingdom50293 Posts
On September 11 2013 03:41 MattBarry wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2013 03:25 Diamond wrote: I like how everyone refers to the S3 jungle as one singular thing. The S3 jungle has been multiple things, and I feel lumping them together is silly.
I like the most current version of the jungle, it's the closest I have ever seen (I never played S1 jungle) that allows powerfarming or gank heavy styles. I can play Shyv and rack up 200+ CS at 30 mins~ or I can play Maokai and farm champs and buff camps only, both work.
While there needs to be some work done (ex: something to stop bot/top lane from taking my damn golems), but this version is pretty badass. Make camps nearly unkillable without the spirit items. It would work but I wouldn't like it, feels like a band-aid fix That'd give an unfair advantage to laners that make use of spirit items though (See Vladimir)
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spirit items now make all skill do 200% damage to jungle camps, jungle camps all now get 200% more hp problem solved riot hire this man
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On September 11 2013 03:47 gtrsrs wrote: spirit items now make all skill do 200% damage to jungle camps, jungle camps all now get 200% more hp problem solved riot hire this man
That just creates more problems and doesn't solve anything.
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