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On September 29 2013 15:29 silencefc wrote:
It meant I started using combat runes instead of the shitty GP10's that everyone ran for Season 2.
I don't usually buy anything past Ruby Sightstone, Mobo Boots, Wards + Oracles but those runes changed how supports can play in lane early.
Gp10's were necessary in S2, because no such thing as sightstone, and lower passive gold gain.
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On September 29 2013 14:59 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2013 14:36 Shikyo wrote:
It doesn't need to be good in general. Just good on the certain champs. Even Jax doesn't use it. I think Jax should use it. In fact, I think Jax should use it over Bork. copy/pasted my post in jax thread Show nested quote +On September 29 2013 14:09 Ryuu314 wrote:
Someone else can do that math, but I honestly think Gunblade would do more damage than Bork. Bork's effectiveness damage-wise is heavily impacted by armor and Jax is honestly never going to get any armor pen. Gunblade gives both AD and AP, two stats Jax scales off of. By boosting both Jax's autos and W/R, it makes it even harder than it already is to itemize defensively against him; indirectly giving him more damage potential.
On top of that, Gunblade also indirectly boosts Jax's survivability by giving him more sustain than Bork (20% spellvamp is pretty darn huge when you're W and R'ing on low cd) and also pumps his ult.
The biggest draw to Bork over Gunblade is the speed boost Bork gives. Gunblade, however, gives 40% slow (compared to Bork's 30%) and has 250 more range on Bork, which is arguably neglible since Jax's jump is 700 range. But given that Triforce is core on Jax, plus diminishing returns on movespeed boosts, I think Gunblade gives better chasing and sticking power.
EDIT: I think I can safely say that the reason why pros haven't/aren't building Gunblade on Jax (or anyone) is because Gunblade (and Jax for that matter) is basically completely unproven on the pro level so they're avoiding it due to unfamiliarity. I do think it's a good alternative to Bork, especially after all the Bork nerfs. Gunblade isn't good on most champions, but on a select few I think it's arguably better than Bork.
Bork vs. Gunblade math on Jax I don't think would be too hard to do. Gunblade might win out. It would depend on your other items.
A big part of the problem is the actives though. You're talking like a 200 damage active on Gunblade vs. likely a 400+ damage active on BotRK late game. The slow on BotRK is better too, 30% movespeed steal for 3 seconds as opposed to a 40% movespeed slow for 2 seconds. And the BotRK active gives you a burst heal.
I wouldn't be surprised if math showed that the DPS on Gunblade was better for Jax, but I would be surprised if they weren't fairly close, and the BotRK active is just leagues better.
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On September 29 2013 15:31 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2013 15:29 silencefc wrote:
It meant I started using combat runes instead of the shitty GP10's that everyone ran for Season 2.
I don't usually buy anything past Ruby Sightstone, Mobo Boots, Wards + Oracles but those runes changed how supports can play in lane early. Gp10's were necessary in S2, because no such thing as sightstone, and lower passive gold gain.
WHICH IS WHY I SAID I LOVED THAT PASSIVE GOLD GAIN BUFF PATCH BUT PPL ARE LIKE LOL SUPPORT ITEMS.
Sightstone is just a better Heart of Gold. That upgrades into a bigger Heart of Gold.
Running HP, Movespeed, or offensive quints over GP10 quints is a big difference. +78 HP with Sona's base HP is huge.
Not running GP10 yellows means Armor Yellows, which means Armor Reds optional, which means Hybrid Pen reds.
Big, big deal for laning.
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On September 29 2013 15:40 silencefc wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2013 15:31 wei2coolman wrote:On September 29 2013 15:29 silencefc wrote:
It meant I started using combat runes instead of the shitty GP10's that everyone ran for Season 2.
I don't usually buy anything past Ruby Sightstone, Mobo Boots, Wards + Oracles but those runes changed how supports can play in lane early. Gp10's were necessary in S2, because no such thing as sightstone, and lower passive gold gain. WHICH IS WHY I SAID I LOVED THAT PASSIVE GOLD GAIN BUFF PATCH BUT PPL ARE LIKE LOL SUPPORT ITEMS. Sightstone is just a better Heart of Gold. That upgrades into a bigger Heart of Gold. Running HP, Movespeed, or offensive quints over GP10 quints is a big difference. +78 HP with Sona's base HP is huge. Not running GP10 yellows means Armor Yellows, which means Armor Reds optional, which means Hybrid Pen reds. Big, big deal for laning.
Difference, S2 support still bought Shurelyas.
S3 supports are lucky to even get sight stone.
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Honestly, if you think Gunblade is better than BotRK, you haven't played enough Jax. The attack speed of BotRK is the huge thing (building passive stacks more quickly is a big deal), as well as the passive and active. Saying he doesn't benefit much from it because he doesn't get armor pen is stupid- gunblade has the same problem and he never gets magic pen either (he may have a small amount from masteries/runes, but does he get any more from items? no). This also ignores the fact his primary targets usually have minimal amounts of armor, because they're the squishes.
Having something that chews up 5% of the targets current health (before armor) when Jax's attack speed is so fast, is way more valuable than making more of his damage magic.
The reason the pros don't build gunblade is because even the crappy early season BotRK was arguably better than Gunblade, and even after all the nerfs the "new" BotRK offers way more than gunblade could ever hope to. And gunblade's buildup sucks, because spending 1200 gold on revolver when you could be getting... practically any other stat and be doing better in lane for it is a complete joke.
The reason no one feels the need to argue this is because the topic is a dead horse.
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On September 29 2013 15:24 wei2coolman wrote:
S3 jungler almost just as sad as S2 Jungler, except this time, they get one decent item (bluefist golem spirit item), then they just buy wards and oracles all day.
Stop saying S3 jungle. This is like the 5th version of the S3 jungle, and right now you can powerfarm like a monster and carry with stuff like Aatrox or MPen Elise (you can still non-stop gank low farm too). I don't think I have ever been able to maintain such a consistent cs (5 cs/min is my benchmark) ever until the most recent version. In fact it's so different that it threw me WAYYYY off as I started in S2 so had never played hard farm jungling style. It's really fun.
This jungle is badass, just needs some small changes to keep laners away from your camps and have more interesting items.
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On September 29 2013 15:49 Diamond wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2013 15:24 wei2coolman wrote:
S3 jungler almost just as sad as S2 Jungler, except this time, they get one decent item (bluefist golem spirit item), then they just buy wards and oracles all day. Stop saying S3 jungle. This is like the 5th version of the S3 jungle, and right now you can powerfarm like a monster and carry with stuff like Aatrox or MPen Elise (you can still non-stop gank low farm too). I don't think I have ever been able to maintain such a consistent cs (5 cs/min is my benchmark) ever until the most recent version. In fact it's so different that it threw me WAYYYY off as I started in S2 so had never played hard farm jungling style. It's really fun. This jungle is badass, just needs some small changes to keep laners away from your camps and have more interesting items.
Only one person plays powerfarm like that at the highest level of play, is Meteos. Solo queue is a very different game compared to pro play, and the game should be balanced at the top.
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On September 29 2013 15:41 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2013 15:40 silencefc wrote:On September 29 2013 15:31 wei2coolman wrote:On September 29 2013 15:29 silencefc wrote:
It meant I started using combat runes instead of the shitty GP10's that everyone ran for Season 2.
I don't usually buy anything past Ruby Sightstone, Mobo Boots, Wards + Oracles but those runes changed how supports can play in lane early. Gp10's were necessary in S2, because no such thing as sightstone, and lower passive gold gain. WHICH IS WHY I SAID I LOVED THAT PASSIVE GOLD GAIN BUFF PATCH BUT PPL ARE LIKE LOL SUPPORT ITEMS. Sightstone is just a better Heart of Gold. That upgrades into a bigger Heart of Gold. Running HP, Movespeed, or offensive quints over GP10 quints is a big difference. +78 HP with Sona's base HP is huge. Not running GP10 yellows means Armor Yellows, which means Armor Reds optional, which means Hybrid Pen reds. Big, big deal for laning. Difference, S2 support still bought Shurelyas. S3 supports are lucky to even get sight stone.
Supports aren't actually making more gold after that patch because they dropped their GP10 runes and Philo + Ruby Sightstone actually costs more than Shurelya's.
People are dropping 1550g on a Ruby Sightstone that doesn't build into the 2100g Shurelya's when people used to go 700g Philostone with 825g HoG or straight into Shurelya.
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On September 29 2013 15:50 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2013 15:49 Diamond wrote:On September 29 2013 15:24 wei2coolman wrote:
S3 jungler almost just as sad as S2 Jungler, except this time, they get one decent item (bluefist golem spirit item), then they just buy wards and oracles all day. Stop saying S3 jungle. This is like the 5th version of the S3 jungle, and right now you can powerfarm like a monster and carry with stuff like Aatrox or MPen Elise (you can still non-stop gank low farm too). I don't think I have ever been able to maintain such a consistent cs (5 cs/min is my benchmark) ever until the most recent version. In fact it's so different that it threw me WAYYYY off as I started in S2 so had never played hard farm jungling style. It's really fun. This jungle is badass, just needs some small changes to keep laners away from your camps and have more interesting items. Only one person plays powerfarm like that at the highest level of play, is Meteos. Solo queue is a very different game compared to pro play, and the game should be balanced at the top.
Almost every jungler aside for SKT T1's jungler is staying very close to that 5 cs/min mark all Worlds long.
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On September 29 2013 15:56 silencefc wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2013 15:41 wei2coolman wrote:On September 29 2013 15:40 silencefc wrote:On September 29 2013 15:31 wei2coolman wrote:On September 29 2013 15:29 silencefc wrote:
It meant I started using combat runes instead of the shitty GP10's that everyone ran for Season 2.
I don't usually buy anything past Ruby Sightstone, Mobo Boots, Wards + Oracles but those runes changed how supports can play in lane early. Gp10's were necessary in S2, because no such thing as sightstone, and lower passive gold gain. WHICH IS WHY I SAID I LOVED THAT PASSIVE GOLD GAIN BUFF PATCH BUT PPL ARE LIKE LOL SUPPORT ITEMS. Sightstone is just a better Heart of Gold. That upgrades into a bigger Heart of Gold. Running HP, Movespeed, or offensive quints over GP10 quints is a big difference. +78 HP with Sona's base HP is huge. Not running GP10 yellows means Armor Yellows, which means Armor Reds optional, which means Hybrid Pen reds. Big, big deal for laning. Difference, S2 support still bought Shurelyas. S3 supports are lucky to even get sight stone. Supports aren't actually making more gold after that patch because they dropped their GP10 runes and Philo + Ruby Sightstone actually costs more than Shurelya's. People are dropping 1550g on a Ruby Sightstone that doesn't build into the 2100g Shurelya's when people used to go 700g Philostone with 825g HoG or straight into Shurelya.
True, that S3 supports end up with equivalent gold value, but it being spent on only wards and oralces, is just as depressing as S2. which the "passive gold gain buff" was suppose to change.
On September 29 2013 15:57 Diamond wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2013 15:50 wei2coolman wrote:On September 29 2013 15:49 Diamond wrote:On September 29 2013 15:24 wei2coolman wrote:
S3 jungler almost just as sad as S2 Jungler, except this time, they get one decent item (bluefist golem spirit item), then they just buy wards and oracles all day. Stop saying S3 jungle. This is like the 5th version of the S3 jungle, and right now you can powerfarm like a monster and carry with stuff like Aatrox or MPen Elise (you can still non-stop gank low farm too). I don't think I have ever been able to maintain such a consistent cs (5 cs/min is my benchmark) ever until the most recent version. In fact it's so different that it threw me WAYYYY off as I started in S2 so had never played hard farm jungling style. It's really fun. This jungle is badass, just needs some small changes to keep laners away from your camps and have more interesting items. Only one person plays powerfarm like that at the highest level of play, is Meteos. Solo queue is a very different game compared to pro play, and the game should be balanced at the top. Almost every jungler aside for SKT T1's jungler is staying very close to that 5 cs/min mark all Worlds long.
I don't know what why your definition of "powerfarm" is 5/cs a min, but that's more like natural farm amount of farm if everyone is doing it >.>
Anyone got data on champ choice variety throughout worlds per lane/role/position?
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5 cs/min is HUGE farm compared to what it was not long ago. Before this most recent change I almost never (that I remember, and I usually pay attention to this kind of stuff) saw junglers with 150+ cs at 30~ mins (Meteos excluded).
I define it right now as anything 5cs/min or over, it's REALLY hard to get that much farm consistently while still ganking and without just over-taxing lanes.
I was averaging a little under 3 cs/min and I think most pros were at about that too in the last jungle version, this one is where it has picked up heavily. Hell in S2 you ended up most games with 50 or less cs total regardless of game length. It's been improving every version.
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On September 29 2013 16:06 Diamond wrote:
5 cs/min is HUGE farm compared to what it was not long ago. Before this most recent change I almost never (that I remember, and I usually pay attention to this kind of stuff) saw junglers with 150+ cs at 30~ mins (Meteos excluded).
I define it right now as anything 5cs/min or over, it's REALLY hard to get that much farm consistently while still ganking and without just over-taxing lanes.
I was averaging a little under 3 cs/min and I think most pros were at about that too in the last jungle version, this one is where it has picked up heavily. Hell in S2 you ended up most games with 50 or less cs total regardless of game length. It's been improving every version.
Farm doesn't mean anything, if the end result still ends up with. 1 decent item (golem), a 2ndry shit item (locket), and oracles + wards the rest of the game, and this is for "high farmers", low farmers get like golem, and wards + oracles.
Then end result hasn't changed too much in S3.
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Just grabbing some stuff from LoLesports.com.
Winning junglers end game builds in the quarterfinals:
SKT T1 vs Gamma:
Game 1 (106 CS): Locket, Ancient Golem, Mobility Boots, Cloth Armor
Game 2 (99 CS): Locket, Ancient Golem, Sightstone, Mobility Boots
GG vs Najin Black
Game 1 (180 cs): Ancient Golem, Banshees, Locket, Glacial Shroud, Cloth Armor, Sorc Boots
Game 2 (76 cs): Locket, Ancient Golem, Negatron, Chain Vest, Ancient Golem, Sorc Boots
Game 3 (81 cs): Locket, Sightstone, Ancient Golem, Mobility Boots
Royal vs OMG:
Game 1 (61 cs): Locket, Ancient Golem, Boots 1, Cloth Armor
Game 2 (40 cs): Locket, Ancient Golem, Ward, Boots 1
C9 vs Fnatic:
Game 1 (97 cs): Ancient Golem, Locket, Tabi, Ward, Negatron
Game 2 (201 cs): Randuins, Locket, Ancient GOlem, Cowl, Ruby Crystal, Tabi + Homeguard
Game 3 (85 cs): Locket, Madred's, Merc's, Sightstone, Hexdrinker, Chain Vest
So what does this all mean? You mentioned that junglers "still ends up with. 1 decent item (golem), a 2ndry shit item (locket), and oracles + wards the rest of the game".
In the 10 games played in the quarters, 5 4 of games played featured junglers that ended up with more than Locket + Ancient Golem + Wards/Oracles + Boots (only one game is Meteos too).
There is now two different styles of jungling and both seem to work very well, with the slight edge appearing to favor the lower farm, but both do work and have been used in pro play as little as a week ago.
More than ever (maybe sans S1 as I did not jungle then) farm CAN be important. Just matters on your teams and your playstyle. I never up until this jungle kept track of my cs vs the enemy jungle, now I do. There is often times in the new jungle I find myself with even gold to a solo lane for the 1st time ever (still end up 3rd/4th overall gold most of the time).
Are junglers rolling in gold all game long? Well no, that has not changed. But there is now a 2nd viable option of high farm/low gank as an alternative to low farm/high gank. Both have ups and downs, but they are both there for the 1st time in my time as a jungler.
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I think the best way to think of Jax with gunblade or botrk is to think of what BT vs IE for an AD carry like ashe is.
BT lets an AD sustain a retarded amount in lane and never die, to take short trades and come out ahead in the long run while IE dishes out substantially more damage in a prolonged fight with autoattacks.
Gunblade is much the same as a BT, sure, gunblade lets you sit in lane forever with retarded amounts of sustain but in a teamfight, you're gimping yourself by not going botrk.
Depending on the jungler, I've seen ~4cs a minute be pretty average for WCS junglers. With the meta favouring mid-laners that can take wraiths often (Orianna especially), the jungler generally gets either wolves or doubles prior to ganking and pretty much doesn't touch their own wraiths after the 7-8 min mark when the midlaners get blue.
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I just played against a guy named Tdot, I wonder if it was THE tdot
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
On September 29 2013 17:42 MattBarry wrote:
I just played against a guy named Tdot, I wonder if it was THE tdot
tdot, what a god.
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So funny how yellowstar went from [supposedly] being the reason SK couldn't practice at all for S2 worlds to Fnatics MVP of the tournament (imo) within one year on a role he just started learning 3 months ago.
Great Tournament!
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On September 28 2013 22:51 Chexx wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2013 22:19 Masq wrote:
For my past ~50 games or so, I'm getting 5-12pts per win, but im losing 19-26 per loss. Why? I'm diamond5, I can win 3-4 games in a row, and lose all the points by losing 1 game. ;f probably because your mmr is not diamond 5 level otherwise you wouldnt lose so much points. just play for a while and you will fit into your category
On September 28 2013 23:59 Schnake wrote:You can also check http://op.gg/mmr for an assessment of your mmr and whether you are currently where the systems thinks you should be. No idea how reliable that website is though, so take it with a grain of salt. 
I've tried using that op.gg/mmr site to track individual game progress.
My last few games:
1,863 (Dia 5, 30LP) - WIN
1,847 (Dia 5, 23LP) - WIN
1,859 (Dia 5, 11LP) - WIN
1,868 (Dia5, 0LP) - WIN
1,874 (Dia5, 0LP) - LOSE
My MMR is going down, even after winning? je ne sais pa
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I have a question for people knowledgeable about internet, ping and people just plain smarter than me when it comes to this stuff:
For like the last couple of months, my ping in League has been 20-25 higher than it once was. This is consistent every game. I have a good connection and it doesn't fluctuate, it is just higher than it used to be. I used to be able to get 170 to NA, nowadays it is 190. When OCE came online, I could get sub 20, now I get over 30.
Does anyone have any advice/explanation for this? Does anyone have a similar case? I'm curios, because literally nothing has changed on my end, but it has just gone up.
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On September 29 2013 21:05 Masq wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2013 22:51 Chexx wrote:On September 28 2013 22:19 Masq wrote:
For my past ~50 games or so, I'm getting 5-12pts per win, but im losing 19-26 per loss. Why? I'm diamond5, I can win 3-4 games in a row, and lose all the points by losing 1 game. ;f probably because your mmr is not diamond 5 level otherwise you wouldnt lose so much points. just play for a while and you will fit into your category Show nested quote +On September 28 2013 23:59 Schnake wrote:You can also check http://op.gg/mmr for an assessment of your mmr and whether you are currently where the systems thinks you should be. No idea how reliable that website is though, so take it with a grain of salt. I've tried using that op.gg/mmr site to track individual game progress. My last three games: 1,847 (Dia 5, 23LP) - WIN 1,859 (Dia 5, 11LP) - WIN 1,868 (Dia5, 0LP) - WIN 1,874 (Dia5, 0LP) - LOSE My MMR is going down, even after winning? je ne sais pa
Yeah I'm starting to doubt op.gg a bit, both in terms of the absolute number and the progress over time. I think the culprit is that it doesn't properly model duo queues. I think the important information is whether, in the algorithm's opinion, your mmr is too high, reasonable, or too low for the division you're in. Too high means you'll gain way more LP than you lose, too low means the opposite, and otherwise it will be +/- 5. This feature I have found to be reliable
@jazzvortical did you ever run a tracert to Riot servers before? It's possible your ISP changed its routing algorithm in a way that's worse for your League connection.
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EPT
