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On September 24 2013 16:40 Kinie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 16:36 Amui wrote:
Ultimate goal with resist/pen changes I think would be to decrease the effectiveness of rushed eHP items(how many times have you seen a renekton with sunfire at like 15 minutes just dive 1v3/4/5 and just burn down the whole team before flashing out at a hundred HP), and keep a moderate powerlevel, while increasing the efficacy of resists against lategame penetration(think cleaver shred+skill shred+LW, turns a 300 armor bruiser into a sponge).
Definitely would require some creative math, and definitely numbers changes.
I still think jungle changes are going to have more impact on the game going into season 4 though. Have they said what the changes will be though for season 4, or is this just all speculation of what we (as fans/experienced LoL players) would like to see in s4. Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 16:40 wei2coolman wrote:
Also, aside from the bonkers triforce Corki, I'd like to see some damage increases for ADCs across the board, if LW is going to be nerfed. The best way to nerf the new Triforce is to make it that the move speed gained from new Phage is cut in half for ranged attacks, so it's 10 on hit instead of 20, and 30 on kill instead of 60.
That makes the build up to it less op'd, but the timing for it is still going to be beyond bonkers in terms of damage.
Also, I don't mind the movespeed from phage being a bit "op'd", just need better movespeed alternatives for other ADC's. Shiv and PD don't offer a fraction of the movespeed they use to, and with the mobility creep from assassins, it's rather silly for Riot to nerf buyable mobility for the squishiest of champions.
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On September 24 2013 15:51 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 15:35 zodde wrote:Did some quick math on Dcap (3300g) vs Void Staff + Blasting Wand (3155g) for Nidalee spears. Both builds had AP quints, scaling AP blues, standard masteries, a Dring, Grail, Sorcs and a blue pot (might be inspired from a worlds game, who knows ^^). Level 15 for the scaling masteries/runes and bluepot calcs. To my surprise, the Voidstaff + Blasting Wand build does more damage to anyone with 37 or more MR. Next scenario: Dcap + Blasting Wand + Amp tome (4595g) vs Voidstaff + Blasting Wand + NLR (4755g) Dring sold, blue pot ran out, baron buff picked up. Now level 17. Voidstaff wins if targets have 43 or more MR. Pretty interesting since pretty much anyone has way more MR than that except ADCs and supports. Add in a aegis/locket and everyone should have atleast 50+ MR. Lux for example is WAY more skewed towards void staff than Nidalee since so much of Lux's burst is from base damage + Show Spoiler +A level 13 Lux needs 510~ AP for her scaling damage to match her base damage on her combo, a lvl 18 Lux needs 580~. Nidalee spears only need 355~ AP for the scaling part to match her base damage , even with just one passive proc (from ult), her Q-E-R combo will pretty much always do more damage with a Grail -> Voidstaff build instead of a Grail -> Dcap build. Conclusion: Anyone who might want to go Grail -> Dcap -> Voidstaff should consider Grail -> Voidstaff ->Dcap instead, depending on the champions ratios and base damage (and ofcourse how much MR the enemy team has). Nidalee has a heal and other AP ratios in cat form. Lux has a shield that scales with AP but not mpen. AP still lets you clear. Builds do different things. Long ago most Lux builds were designed to one shot creep waves while doing decent burst damage to champions. Now it's more about sustained and liberal usage of mana. Take all variables into consideration.
Yeah I should have wrote something about that. On Nidalee, I do think that spear damage pretty much trumps everything though. I agree with Lux, she wants waveclear and a stronger shield is always nice, but she also loves to blow people up in the mid/late game, and voidstaff seems to do that better.
Versus people who have 100+ MR, for example a Diana with mr runes, abyssal and her damn passive mr/l (why riot?), Lux does 20-25% more damage in the two scenarios i posted in my first post.
Void staff is not built a lot as a first damage item (after your mana item), atleast from what I've seen. Gonna stop theorycrafting though, maybe waveclear and the other stuff you mentioned makes Void Staff non-viable, but I'm gonna try it out for sure.
On September 24 2013 16:07 Lord Tolkien wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 15:46 zodde wrote:On September 24 2013 15:39 cLutZ wrote:On September 24 2013 15:35 zodde wrote:Did some quick math on Dcap (3300g) vs Void Staff + Blasting Wand (3155g) for Nidalee spears. Both builds had AP quints, scaling AP blues, standard masteries, a Dring, Grail, Sorcs and a blue pot (might be inspired from a worlds game, who knows ^^). Level 15 for the scaling masteries/runes and bluepot calcs. To my surprise, the Voidstaff + Blasting Wand build does more damage to anyone with 37 or more MR. Next scenario: Dcap + Blasting Wand + Amp tome (4595g) vs Voidstaff + Blasting Wand + NLR (4755g) Dring sold, blue pot ran out, baron buff picked up. Now level 17. Voidstaff wins if targets have 43 or more MR. Pretty interesting since pretty much anyone has way more MR than that except ADCs and supports. Add in a aegis/locket and everyone should have atleast 50+ MR. Lux for example is WAY more skewed towards void staff than Nidalee since so much of Lux's burst is from base damage + Show Spoiler +A level 13 Lux needs 510~ AP for her scaling damage to match her base damage on her combo, a lvl 18 Lux needs 580~. Nidalee spears only need 355~ AP for the scaling part to match her base damage , even with just one passive proc (from ult), her Q-E-R combo will pretty much always do more damage with a Grail -> Voidstaff build instead of a Grail -> Dcap build. Conclusion: Anyone who might want to go Grail -> Dcap -> Voidstaff should consider Grail -> Voidstaff ->Dcap instead, depending on the champions ratios and base damage (and ofcourse how much MR the enemy team has). Been like this for some time. Dcap has better scaling for heals/shields though. I understand why Riot want to nerf LW/Voidstaff though. They should find some way to make them just as strong versus armor/mr stacking, and at the same time take away some of the power they provide vs low resist targets. If that's the case, revert the arpen/mpen formula so that %pen is calculated after flat pen. HOWEVER, that significantly nerfs flat pen.
Yeah I dont think that just reverting it is the right move. It will put flat pen back to s2 status, and I think flat pen is in a pretty good place right now.
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Yeah I should have wrote something about that. On Nidalee, I do think that spear damage pretty much trumps everything though. I agree with Lux, she wants waveclear and a stronger shield is always nice, but she also loves to blow people up in the mid/late game, and voidstaff seems to do that better.
Versus people who have 100+ MR, for example a Diana with mr runes, abyssal and her damn passive mr/l (why riot?), Lux does 20-25% more damage in the two scenarios i posted in my first post.
Void staff is not built a lot as a first damage item (after your mana item), atleast from what I've seen. Gonna stop theorycrafting though, maybe waveclear and the other stuff you mentioned makes Void Staff non-viable, but I'm gonna try it out for sure.
It would be interesting to test it out on very high ratio champs. The champ that comes to mind immediately is Malzahar. He has .8 on his Q, extra 1% Max HP per 100 AP on his W, .8 on his E and 1.3 on his ult. A lot is Damage over time of course, but it would interesting on a champ like him, who obviously benefits from having a lot of AP.
Malz also has really high base damage to further complicate things as well.
I'm terrible at maths. Should have paid more attention.
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On September 24 2013 17:00 JazzVortical wrote:Show nested quote +Yeah I should have wrote something about that. On Nidalee, I do think that spear damage pretty much trumps everything though. I agree with Lux, she wants waveclear and a stronger shield is always nice, but she also loves to blow people up in the mid/late game, and voidstaff seems to do that better.
Versus people who have 100+ MR, for example a Diana with mr runes, abyssal and her damn passive mr/l (why riot?), Lux does 20-25% more damage in the two scenarios i posted in my first post.
Void staff is not built a lot as a first damage item (after your mana item), atleast from what I've seen. Gonna stop theorycrafting though, maybe waveclear and the other stuff you mentioned makes Void Staff non-viable, but I'm gonna try it out for sure. It would be interesting to test it out on very high ratio champs. The champ that comes to mind immediately is Malzahar. He has .8 on his Q, extra 1% Max HP per 100 AP on his W, .8 on his E and 1.3 on his ult. A lot is Damage over time of course, but it would interesting on a champ like him, who obviously benefits from having a lot of AP. Malz also has really high base damage to further complicate things as well. I'm terrible at maths. Should have paid more attention.
Void staff builds are better for champions with high base damages, not ratios. 
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On September 24 2013 17:00 JazzVortical wrote:Show nested quote +Yeah I should have wrote something about that. On Nidalee, I do think that spear damage pretty much trumps everything though. I agree with Lux, she wants waveclear and a stronger shield is always nice, but she also loves to blow people up in the mid/late game, and voidstaff seems to do that better.
Versus people who have 100+ MR, for example a Diana with mr runes, abyssal and her damn passive mr/l (why riot?), Lux does 20-25% more damage in the two scenarios i posted in my first post.
Void staff is not built a lot as a first damage item (after your mana item), atleast from what I've seen. Gonna stop theorycrafting though, maybe waveclear and the other stuff you mentioned makes Void Staff non-viable, but I'm gonna try it out for sure. It would be interesting to test it out on very high ratio champs. The champ that comes to mind immediately is Malzahar. He has .8 on his Q, extra 1% Max HP per 100 AP on his W, .8 on his E and 1.3 on his ult. A lot is Damage over time of course, but it would interesting on a champ like him, who obviously benefits from having a lot of AP. Malz also has really high base damage to further complicate things as well. I'm terrible at maths. Should have paid more attention.
You build Liandry's. Take all the dot damage to the bank
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On September 24 2013 16:51 zodde wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 16:07 Lord Tolkien wrote:On September 24 2013 15:46 zodde wrote:On September 24 2013 15:39 cLutZ wrote:On September 24 2013 15:35 zodde wrote:Did some quick math on Dcap (3300g) vs Void Staff + Blasting Wand (3155g) for Nidalee spears. Both builds had AP quints, scaling AP blues, standard masteries, a Dring, Grail, Sorcs and a blue pot (might be inspired from a worlds game, who knows ^^). Level 15 for the scaling masteries/runes and bluepot calcs. To my surprise, the Voidstaff + Blasting Wand build does more damage to anyone with 37 or more MR. Next scenario: Dcap + Blasting Wand + Amp tome (4595g) vs Voidstaff + Blasting Wand + NLR (4755g) Dring sold, blue pot ran out, baron buff picked up. Now level 17. Voidstaff wins if targets have 43 or more MR. Pretty interesting since pretty much anyone has way more MR than that except ADCs and supports. Add in a aegis/locket and everyone should have atleast 50+ MR. Lux for example is WAY more skewed towards void staff than Nidalee since so much of Lux's burst is from base damage + Show Spoiler +A level 13 Lux needs 510~ AP for her scaling damage to match her base damage on her combo, a lvl 18 Lux needs 580~. Nidalee spears only need 355~ AP for the scaling part to match her base damage , even with just one passive proc (from ult), her Q-E-R combo will pretty much always do more damage with a Grail -> Voidstaff build instead of a Grail -> Dcap build. Conclusion: Anyone who might want to go Grail -> Dcap -> Voidstaff should consider Grail -> Voidstaff ->Dcap instead, depending on the champions ratios and base damage (and ofcourse how much MR the enemy team has). Been like this for some time. Dcap has better scaling for heals/shields though. I understand why Riot want to nerf LW/Voidstaff though. They should find some way to make them just as strong versus armor/mr stacking, and at the same time take away some of the power they provide vs low resist targets. If that's the case, revert the arpen/mpen formula so that %pen is calculated after flat pen. HOWEVER, that significantly nerfs flat pen. Yeah I dont think that just reverting it is the right move. It will put flat pen back to s2 status, and I think flat pen is in a pretty good place right now.
In which case, the only way to balance it is to nerf LW and Void Staff, straight up. There's no other way to cut it. It's impossible to make them more effective vs high resist targets and weaker vs low resist targets because of the dualistic synergy of flat pen and %pen, because having low resists makes flat pen better (which is made even better by the %pen bringing it closer to the true damage breakpoint). It's why flat pen+%pen builds are so strong, particularly on assassins like Zed.
The other option to hitting %pen is to rework the values of everything else (Resist/Health balance in items and champion base stats/runes, ratios, AD/AP costing, etc), or a combination of the two, without significant changes to Void and LW.
The other option is to reduce the AD and AP the two items give, which reduces their cost effectiveness and damage breakpoints except against higher resist targets. Given for LW, you're roughly paying 980ish for the %pen (assuming BF level AD efficiency), it's still too cheap. Meanwhile, Void Staff is only 895 for the passive (against a Needless).
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If they were to nerf LW and Void staff, they should buff the %pen you can obtain from masteries back to what it was in season 2. Otherwise, it'll be season 3 start all over again >_>
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On September 24 2013 17:17 Sponkz wrote:
If they were to nerf LW and Void staff, they should buff the %pen you can obtain from masteries back to what it was in season 2. Otherwise, it'll be season 3 start all over again >_>
Season 3 start? AKA League of Warmogs?
S3 start was plagued by undervaluation of HP vs MR/Armor due to super-efficiency of HP items like Warmogs as defensive choices. Resists are comparably weaker now than it was at the end of S2.
Nerfing LW/Void doesn't necessarily entail nerfing the %pen they offer, but the miscellaneous damage stats (AD/AP) on the item to significantly weaken the cost effectiveness of the items, meaning you're paying more for the passive. AKA, instead of 900-950 gold for the passive, bumping it up to 1000-1100 for the passive (by shaving, say, 5 AP off Void and 5 AD off LW) is significant in and of itself.
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On September 24 2013 07:06 sylverfyre wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 06:32 Alaric wrote:On September 24 2013 06:15 sylverfyre wrote:On September 24 2013 05:47 Alaric wrote:
E first Varus rushes BotRK and has very good dueling, chasing and self-peeling, teams switched between Q first -> BT and E first -> BotRK depending on the comp and gameplan. What? No they dont @ q first build. They go BT LW IE (maybe mix in a zeal there) BORK is trash when you have 300+ AD. Trash. You want arPen and Crit at that point, especially with Varus's kit - when you go Q>E>W, you have a ton of physical damage with excellent AD ratios, so your priority is AD/ArPen > Crit > AS. You'll get some AS off your passive pretty much any time you fire a Q or E because it WILL kill a minion somewhere in its path. Your assist/kill-resets will give you more AS for cleanup power later in a fight. Yeah, so I mentioned that they go BotRK first when they skill R>E>Q>W... Note how i specified that I was only talking about the Q first build. A late BORK when you have 300 AD and a BT already is silly. (E first also got nerfed pretty hard but Q first was buffed because they transferred quite a bit of damage from E to Q.)
E first was still decent after the transfer, but is probably garbage after the Bork nerfs. It's something I intend to examine and possibly edit in the Varus thread.
But saying I'm getting poor sleep atm would be an understatement.
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On September 24 2013 17:05 zodde wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 17:00 JazzVortical wrote:Yeah I should have wrote something about that. On Nidalee, I do think that spear damage pretty much trumps everything though. I agree with Lux, she wants waveclear and a stronger shield is always nice, but she also loves to blow people up in the mid/late game, and voidstaff seems to do that better.
Versus people who have 100+ MR, for example a Diana with mr runes, abyssal and her damn passive mr/l (why riot?), Lux does 20-25% more damage in the two scenarios i posted in my first post.
Void staff is not built a lot as a first damage item (after your mana item), atleast from what I've seen. Gonna stop theorycrafting though, maybe waveclear and the other stuff you mentioned makes Void Staff non-viable, but I'm gonna try it out for sure. It would be interesting to test it out on very high ratio champs. The champ that comes to mind immediately is Malzahar. He has .8 on his Q, extra 1% Max HP per 100 AP on his W, .8 on his E and 1.3 on his ult. A lot is Damage over time of course, but it would interesting on a champ like him, who obviously benefits from having a lot of AP. Malz also has really high base damage to further complicate things as well. I'm terrible at maths. Should have paid more attention. Void staff builds are better for champions with high base damages, not ratios.
That's what I mean, he has both. That's why I think he'd be an interesting test case for Dcap vs Void staff.
As someone said, Liandrys is probably the best item on him, but it would be interesting none the less.
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Malzahar benefits greatly from pen (both flat and %pen) due to his base damages.
Outside of pure mathcraft though, Liandrys/Rylais are crucial on him for non-damage purposes.
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On September 24 2013 17:26 Lord Tolkien wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 17:17 Sponkz wrote:
If they were to nerf LW and Void staff, they should buff the %pen you can obtain from masteries back to what it was in season 2. Otherwise, it'll be season 3 start all over again >_> Season 3 start? AKA League of Warmogs? S3 start was plagued by undervaluation of HP vs MR/Armor due to super-efficiency of HP items like Warmogs as defensive choices. Resists are comparably weaker now than it was at the end of S2. Nerfing LW/Void doesn't necessarily entail nerfing the %pen they offer, but the miscellaneous damage stats (AD/AP) on the item to significantly weaken the cost effectiveness of the items, meaning you're paying more for the passive. AKA, instead of 900-950 gold for the passive, bumping it up to 1000-1100 for the passive (by shaving, say, 5 AP off Void and 5 AD off LW) is significant in and of itself.
Oh, i read that wrong it seems Thanks for clarifying!
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Freeze just reached Plat V on his smurf with a 24/0 reccord lol.. And apparently he only plays League for a year oO Some people are disgustingly talented :/
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On September 24 2013 15:01 Itsmedudeman wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 14:21 obesechicken13 wrote:
Dyrus Faker Turtle Zion and Aphro on stream... was an interesting game just now.
Elise (w/ a weird no AP penetration tank build), Karma mid, Riven top, Support thresh, Wildturtle as Sivir.
Some challenger players don't even care lol. Dyrus didn't have a build set up before he played Elise. And I'm pretty sure Faker is just picking what he feels like at this point. Watching dyrus play ad carry is hilarious. ADC and top players just don't overlap well at all.
Funny you would say that, I've been trying to main only those 2 pos lately and found them to have a lot in common in the laning mindset, even though it's hard to explain. I might be just weird
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I want to finish my placement matches before ranked ends but I am literally too scared to do so. halp!
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Upon actually learning the champion, I have determined that Lissandra is batshit op.
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United States15536 Posts
On September 24 2013 22:00 jcarlsoniv wrote:
Upon actually learning the champion, I have determined that Lissandra is batshit op.
Write guide pls.
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United States37500 Posts
On September 24 2013 22:00 jcarlsoniv wrote:
Upon actually learning the champion, I have determined that Lissandra is batshit op.
Play IHs today as Liss. tyvm
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Baa?21248 Posts
I think Liss is another one of those heroes that look and feel really good when you're winning and is pretty bad when you're losing. See: Xerath, for example
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There's already a Liss thread iirc.
On September 24 2013 21:59 phyvo wrote:
I want to finish my placement matches before ranked ends but I am literally too scared to do so. halp!
yolo it up, doesn't matter where you end as long as you just finish the placements o/
Fizz and Diana have MR/level, which doesn't bother me since they're melee. However, I'm left wondering why Maokai doesn't. >_>
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EPT
