EPT[Patch 3.10: Yimake Patch] General Discussion - Page 324
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mordek
United States12705 Posts
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
Plus Vi is 100% reliant on bush control (even more than Blitz or Leona) for example and has a very limited "lockdown" (1.5s suppression and short knock-back on Q, all single-target) so to convince me I'd have to give very solid information as to which kind of lanes he'd pick it with/against and how he expects it to play out so that Vi gives him stuff that another champ wouldn't (unless you use Q to stop stuff like Zac jumping in, even Taric is a better bodyguard than Vi for example). On August 22 2013 00:12 PrinceXizor wrote: Then, when i actually play things and they work, and i explain them here, everyone tries to tell me i don't understand anything. :/ Thing is, when you only say: If you want to play a character as support, the main things you need to look at are: What do i gain from playing this character, What is unique about this character, What impact do i have on laning, And finally, what can i do mid-late game with mostly health stacking. Tryndamere, Amumu, Vi, Urgot, Ezreal, Galio, fiddle, lissandra, warwick all pass these four questions pretty damn well. But some of them require unusual play from your partner to be strong, similar to how Leona does. Making it difficult to use them in solo queue in addition to general trolling that you will receive for trying. you actually don't explain much, you say "they're good at these very vague criterion", it's like if I say "jungle Karma has map presence", it's super vague so people shouldn't take my word for it, however I can develop a bit and explain that, especially with blue or another source of mp5, she can zoom really fast with E and that it couples well with her strong countergank kit and how hard it is to 1v1 her in either your or her jungle. | ||
onlywonderboy
United States23745 Posts
On August 22 2013 00:14 Ketara wrote: I feel like Yango was very insistant that Locket was like the best item ever at the start of season 3, and turned out to be so correct that they ended up nerfing the crap out of Locket. I don't remember PX saying anything about this. Yango gave him credit for realizing the power of Locket really early. If there's an influx of Support Trynd at Worlds I guess then we'd have to eat some crow. | ||
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SagaZ
France3460 Posts
On August 21 2013 23:32 PrinceXizor wrote: So you are saying that removing 50% of the DPS of a carry for 4 seconds in the mid game is useless? -80 AD wins fights. or you can, you know, cc them with any non retarded support And even thought people on this forum give yango credit for saying locket was bonkers op, I'm pretty sure anyone that read the stats it gave at the time could see it. At least everyone I play with was on the locket train from day one. | ||
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freelander
Hungary4707 Posts
constantly slowing the enemy team, good initiation, clairvoyance on short cd.. aim for the 40% cdr | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On August 22 2013 00:16 onlywonderboy wrote: Yango gave him credit for realizing the power of Locket really early. If there's an influx of Support Trynd at Worlds I guess then we'd have to eat some crow. I don't think tryn support will be popular outside of cheese picks. It just doesn't fit how teams play right now. of the champs i'd expect if any of them are played it'd be fiddle/galio, but as far as what i think would be stronger than those two? Warwick support. He's exceptional in the proper matchup. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
And how would Nunu support not be better? | ||
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SagaZ
France3460 Posts
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
It seemed like Yango was going unheard despite posting a whole lot here about Locket (then there was that time when he advocated warmogs as the marksmen's defensive item and most of the posters here tried to ridicule him, turned out he was right again and people turned to Randuin's because by that time Warmog's had already been nerfed  ). | ||
NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
On August 22 2013 00:12 PrinceXizor wrote: Depends. when locket came out but wasn't live on the servers i explained how strong of an item it was and how cost efficient it was, everyone ignored me. Then, when i actually play things and they work, and i explain them here, everyone tries to tell me i don't understand anything. :/ In retrospect, we give you plenty of credit for the S3 Locket. TheYango consistently brings it up as one of your redeeming points. But for every Locket idea, you have an Eve Top idea. The thing about item theorycraft is that its largely based on math. There need to be a practicality level if you're going to talk about champions. Sometimes I wonder (and several of staff agree with me) if you take a heretical stance on things because you just like to be different. But it boils down to your presentation, there's several thing you could easily do differently to theorycraft without drawing the ire of many. | ||
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
These answers and these questions are not static. They change as balance and the meta change. However, I don't think PX is adequately answering these questions. For example, how does Tryndamere approach the laning phase as a support? Tryndamere won't have many opportunities to build Fury, and won't be leveling his Q first. Similarly his E won't bring anything to the table other than a personal escape/gap closer, and his Ult is just more personal survivability. On a support with a lot of CC the extra effective Hp5, gap closing, and survival would be great, but Tryndamere doesn't have the CC to give all of those abilities purpose. Some other champions answer these questions better and have far more convincing proponents, but still fall short (e.g. Lux, LeBlanc, Galio). PX will really need a much more thorough and convincing argument to make me reconsider most of his listed "support" champions (particularly Tryndamere, Warwick, Ezreal, Urgot, Vi, and Amumu, which is most of them). | ||
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Capped
United Kingdom7236 Posts
Her R is just godlike nobody can deny that :-D | ||
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thenexusp
United States3721 Posts
And PX still needs to duel req, I thought we weren't going to let him dodge this one? | ||
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onlywonderboy
United States23745 Posts
On August 22 2013 00:20 PrinceXizor wrote: I don't think tryn support will be popular outside of cheese picks. It just doesn't fit how teams play right now. of the champs i'd expect if any of them are played it'd be fiddle/galio, but as far as what i think would be stronger than those two? Warwick support. He's exceptional in the proper matchup. Support Fiddle gets seen in OGN a decent amount so I wouldn't even classify that as a cheese pick anymore. I just don't see the strengths of Warwick. I know you said it's comp specific but I just can't see a realistic scenario where he just doesn't get abused in lane so hard to the point of having little/no impact. | ||
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mordek
United States12705 Posts
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On August 22 2013 00:21 Ketara wrote: What is the proper matchup for Warwick support? And how would Nunu support not be better? Put warwick with someone like Varus/Caitlyn/ezreal against a support like thresh taric or nami, but not lulu or sona. nunu support gives 5% more attack speed to the carry and movespeed, but does not have any way of actually CCing anyone, and his healing while a greater amount, does require creeps to be in melee range, he also does significantly less damage in a drawn out fight in lane. nunu is just overall far better as a jungler right now than support. Warwick has significantly better offensive stats on the champ itself, and while that may not seem important for a support, it can often make a big different in how effective a character is. Take them both at level 4, with two points in Hunter's call warwick can give his jungler, his carry 25% attack speed, and himself 50%. for warwick 50% attack speed is an extra .34 attacks a second, putting him at around 1.07 attacks per second at level 4, he also deals 64 damage + 4.5 magic damage up to 13.5 magic damage a hit. in this scenerio it can't really be said that warwick is lacking compared to nunu, at worst they are roughly even, with nunus level 1 snowball slowing for 20% making up for nunus significantly worse offensive potential. at level 6 in lane it should be obvious that warwick is just better overall. and late game Hunter's call affecting 2-3 of the important targets instead of only 1-2, is greater preferential. the Blood scent also granting a significant edge both during ganks and elsewhere Warwick outranges nunu on his key abilities 700 range on infinite duress compared to 550 for Ice blast, 1250 AND aoe on hunter's call compared to blood boils 700, 400 on hungering strike which also does % health damage to champions, instead of 125 on consume. On August 22 2013 00:24 NeoIllusions wrote: Sometimes I wonder (and several of staff agree with me) if you take a heretical stance on things because you just like to be different. But it boils down to your presentation, there's several thing you could easily do differently to theorycraft without drawing the ire of many. When the section immediately attempts to put me on a defensive whenever i post anything at all, its not really possible to handle things better than i am. On August 22 2013 00:35 onlywonderboy wrote: Support Fiddle gets seen in OGN a decent amount so I wouldn't even classify that as a cheese pick anymore. I just don't see the strengths of Warwick. I know you said it's comp specific but I just can't see a realistic scenario where he just doesn't get abused in lane so hard to the point of having little/no impact. Warwick is actually really hard to abuse in lane except as lulu or sona. he heals quite a bit and if you ever give him bush control he's impossible to control, not that he really needs it. | ||
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Capped
United Kingdom7236 Posts
Ur making sense not. WW support is just bad because of this, every. single. other. support. can just CC his ult and then he's screwed. He is literally a terrible support after level 5, just like most of the other suggestions in this thread (Viktor) i mean maybe not a TERRIBLE support because of the AS buff, but his damage falls off HARD after 5 and his ability to gapclose is alot worse then most, if not all supports. | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On August 22 2013 00:45 Capped wrote: Put warwick against supports that can outright CC his long-CD ult. Ur making sense not. Thresh does not want to be using pull and flay on warwick, he wants to be preventing the carry from fighting with them, Taric isn't one to save his stun or he'll never get to use shatter effectively, and without his stun he's just worse than warwick in straight up fights, Nami is a blend of both, she doesn't want to be using bubble on warwick and shes not exactly very strong in fights without it. Regardless of what you are up against though, just running in and using infinite duress or ANY channeling spell without any thought is bad. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
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