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On August 21 2013 23:19 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2013 22:50 Ketara wrote:
I feel like PX is not "wrong" here in that a lot of champions CAN support if you really want to support them.
Rather the issue is they're not as good at supporting as established support champions.
Galio for an example is an okay support champion. He has a shield, a ranged harass tool, a movespeed engage/disengage tool, and a hard CC ult that isn't bad. Bulwark lets him be reasonably tanky with just health from items.
But compare Galio to "real" support champions. Lulu also has a shield, better ranged harass tools, a more reliable movespeed disengage tool, can flash ult herself just like Galio can, and also has ranged CC. Leona has more CC, is not reliant on flash to engage, is tankier, and does more damage without items. Sona has more reliable CC, sustain, poke, etc. None of them have Galios mana problems.
A lot of playing support is just playing support properly and knowing what you're supposed to be doing. You can buy wards and exhaust the right target and peel in a fight on anybody. Some champions are just way better at it than others.
tl;dr don't say that unconventional support champions can't support, ask why you wouldn't play a conventional support champion. if you try to distill picks down like that you end up saying, why play any support but lulu or nami. If you aren't finding ways to use the specialties of certain champs then you aren't using them to their fullest, period.
That's a good question, why NOT play any support but lulu or nami? I'm just playing support lulu every game because I haven't answered it yet.
More seriously though, what does support Vi offer that Leona doesn't do better? Leona's engage is better, her damage is comparable, her tankiness is better*, and she has significantly more CC.
What does Support Galio offer that Sona or Lulu doesn't? They can protect a target, ally speedbuff, significant poke, aoe CC ultimate. Lulu also has an arguably better AOE slow. They also have some baller autoattack harass which leaves galio in the dust because of how good supports with ranged autos are.
Why would you pick support Ezreal (or Nidalee) over Lulu? Yeah, they can poke and have mobility. Lulu poke is also pretty damn good, also has a slow component (allowing you to muck up enemy engagements) Lulu also has mobility (zoom zoom im on a broom) and also has HARD CC INSTEAD OF NO CC. The only problem? Lulu's poke doesn't scale as well with items. But this is the support role... what are items?
* especially when you consider that supports generally only get to buy ruby crystals, and Leona's tankiness scales better off that itemization.
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On August 21 2013 23:24 sylverfyre wrote:
That's a good question, why NOT play any support but lulu or nami? I'm just playing support lulu every game because I haven't answered it yet.
In solo queue? probably best just playing those two, or thresh if you can get him. AD players in solo queue can't work with supports they aren't familiar with, and will drastically fail if you try to play anything they aren't used to. so playing the standard catch all supports will end up better for you than playing what might be best for the situation. Every character in the game has specific strengths and weaknesses, and except top lane and ADs, these are mostly not homogeneous. so if you play your position perfectly you will be able to play the ideal pick for any scenario and play it as well as your best champ.
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No, it's -80 ad only for 4 secs, it doesn't scale very well or at all.
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On August 21 2013 23:30 SagaZ wrote:
No, it's -80 ad only for 4 secs, it doesn't scale very well or at all.
So you are saying that removing 50% of the DPS of a carry for 4 seconds in the mid game is useless? -80 AD wins fights.
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On August 21 2013 23:32 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2013 23:30 SagaZ wrote:
No, it's -80 ad only for 4 secs, it doesn't scale very well or at all. So you are saying that removing 50% of the DPS of a carry for 4 seconds in the mid game is useless? -80 AD wins fights.
being 5v4 also wins fights I hear
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On August 21 2013 23:32 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2013 23:30 SagaZ wrote:
No, it's -80 ad only for 4 secs, it doesn't scale very well or at all. So you are saying that removing 50% of the DPS of a carry for 4 seconds in the mid game is useless? -80 AD wins fights.
You know what else can nullify 50% of the DPS of a carry for 4 seconds? using CC on them for two seconds.
Only one of these options continues nullifying 50% of the DPS of a carry when they have 4 major items compared to your 0 major items.
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I'm having no trouble at all while playing on EUW for anyone who is interested
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On August 21 2013 23:32 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2013 23:30 SagaZ wrote:
No, it's -80 ad only for 4 secs, it doesn't scale very well or at all. So you are saying that removing 50% of the DPS of a carry for 4 seconds in the mid game is useless? -80 AD wins fights.
Yes, Tryndamere is known for his amazing teamfight presence. I don't know why any top Tryndamere's waste so much time split pushing.
It's possible to have good support abilities and be a shitty support (See Lux.) and it's possible to have few support abilities and be a good support (See Zyra.) Mocking Shout is a good supportive ability, but nothing else about Tryndamere's kit allows him to play support. Further, it's 400 range. So good luck reducing any carries DPS as 0 item Tryndamere.
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On August 21 2013 23:29 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2013 23:24 sylverfyre wrote:
That's a good question, why NOT play any support but lulu or nami? I'm just playing support lulu every game because I haven't answered it yet. In solo queue? probably best just playing those two, or thresh if you can get him. AD players in solo queue can't work with supports they aren't familiar with, and will drastically fail if you try to play anything they aren't used to. so playing the standard catch all supports will end up better for you than playing what might be best for the situation. Every character in the game has specific strengths and weaknesses, and except top lane and ADs, these are mostly not homogeneous. so if you play your position perfectly you will be able to play the ideal pick for any scenario and play it as well as your best champ.
In arranged play too. In arranged play I'm even LESS LIKELY to have anything resembling a major item (does a kindlegem count?!) and I need to be even MORE versatile and able to help my team make plays. I'm not going to pick vi, or tryndamere, or Galio. I'm pretty unlikely to even pick Leona.
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On August 21 2013 23:39 Lounge wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2013 23:32 PrinceXizor wrote:On August 21 2013 23:30 SagaZ wrote:
No, it's -80 ad only for 4 secs, it doesn't scale very well or at all. So you are saying that removing 50% of the DPS of a carry for 4 seconds in the mid game is useless? -80 AD wins fights. Yes, Tryndamere is known for his amazing teamfight presence. I don't know why any top Tryndamere's waste so much time split pushing. It's possible to have good support abilities and be a shitty support (See Lux.) and it's possible to have few support abilities and be a good support (See Zyra.) Mocking Shout is a good supportive ability, but nothing else about Tryndamere's kit allows him to play support. Further, it's 400 range. So good luck reducing any carries DPS as 0 item Tryndamere.
You can probably do it. Once. Then you die. Very good teamfight presence here when compared to, for example, sona (who should also destroy trynd supp in lane to a degree that isn't even funny)
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Speaking of non-traditional champs in certain roles, had an amumu top my last ranked game. Mummy gets pretty scary with lane farm.
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On August 21 2013 23:46 mordek wrote:
Speaking of non-traditional champs in certain roles, had an amumu top my last ranked game. Mummy gets pretty scary with lane farm.
I tried Mumu top once in a TL inhouse, it was pretty fun. Against Pre-Nerf Jayce though, one could say that it had flaws.
;_;
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Amumu has good base damage, his E's passive is good against minion aggro and his passive is actually pretty strong early game (especially against opponents who won't expect it—I'm pretty sure most of the player base ignores what it does). He's got no escapes, relatively high mana costs and mild to weak pushing power, but if you somehow let him farm the combo of good ratios+very high base damage lets him hurt people really hard.
Amumu's very strong if played with AP items (they actually wrecked his ratios because of this, they were assassin-level high before in combination with his base damage) but his laning is kinda shaky in most match-ups and you can't really ask him to initiate fights 1v5 if he doesn't build tanky, which works against him (people won't use an initiator or build tanky if they see Amumu because they expect him to take care of it).
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I was playing Leona so it was all good (excited for skin). I didn't get a chance to see the laning very much but it looked like he would just sit in the minions without a care vs. nasus.
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Who wants to 2v2 PX so he'll stop theorycrafting?
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If he fails to understand why most of his ideas don't work I don't think beating him in a 2v2 would change much.
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
PX won't even 1v1 Req. What makes you think he'll agree to a 2v2 with anyone? You could give him Doublelift as his AD carry and he'd probably still dodge.
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United States37500 Posts
On August 22 2013 00:07 Roffles wrote:
PX won't even 1v1 Req. What makes you think he'll agree to a 2v2 with anyone? You could give him Doublelift as his AD carry and he'd probably still dodge.
My biggest issue with PX theorycraft is the basis of his ideas. Does he actually test stuff out firsthand or are these just ideas he comes up with during the course of the day.
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On August 22 2013 00:10 NeoIllusions wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2013 00:07 Roffles wrote:
PX won't even 1v1 Req. What makes you think he'll agree to a 2v2 with anyone? You could give him Doublelift as his AD carry and he'd probably still dodge. My biggest issue with PX theorycraft is the basis of his ideas. Does he actually test stuff out firsthand or are these just ideas he comes up with during the course of the day.
Depends. when locket came out but wasn't live on the servers i explained how strong of an item it was and how cost efficient it was, everyone ignored me. Then, when i actually play things and they work, and i explain them here, everyone tries to tell me i don't understand anything. :/
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I feel like Yango was very insistant that Locket was like the best item ever at the start of season 3, and turned out to be so correct that they ended up nerfing the crap out of Locket.
I don't remember PX saying anything about this.
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EPT
