|
|
On August 01 2013 04:21 XilDarkz wrote:
I remember reading something about how you should focus on winning lanes, and that outside of the professional level that is the best way to win. I call bullshit. If winning lanes meant winning the game, I wouldn't have a measly 55% winrate as Syndra. I've played games with Gtsrs where lanes are completely and utterly lost, and we easily win the game, despite a huge laning deficit.
I say lanes are not nearly as important in this game as in Dota because of the apparent impossibility of shutting someone down--you don't lose gold or nearly as much time when you die.
yes, teamcomps allow for a certain amount of comeback potential, especially the press R aoe ones.
But if your whole team smashes the opponent's in lane you're going to have a very easy game.
dota comparison is pointless
|
On August 01 2013 04:17 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 04:02 Slayer91 wrote:On August 01 2013 03:58 wei2coolman wrote:On August 01 2013 03:55 Slayer91 wrote:On August 01 2013 03:32 wei2coolman wrote:Looking into master yi's kit a bit more; is there a point in building LW? his on hit true damage seems so good already that LW seems like a very luxury buy. Yi is almost required to build at least 2 big defensive items; just due to his melee nature. Leaving 3 core offensive items for him. Is BT (or hydra)/LW/Shiv(or PD) really the best choice for him? Or perhaps he's got more of the 3 hybrid offensive/defensive item build going for him; with 1 massive offensive and defensive item? hexdrinker/atma's/fmallet; On August 01 2013 03:04 Slayer91 wrote:
dunno why people are bitching about support items being bad, if you dont like em get deathcap or randuins or something Not sure if serious... serious the problem with support items isn't that they're bad; they're too expensive. That's like saying "if you don't like lambo's go buy a ferrari", to a crack addict who's living on foodstamps. an item thats too expensive is the same thing as an item thats bad or if supports dont have enough gold thats not really an item problem its more that every support is buying a billino wards and pinks and oracles in baron baits supopotrs dont get much less gold than a jungler honestly Not really; those items are solid items for solo laners, problem is there's no strategies that are based on support solo laners (any more). The reason junglers don't grab these items (as in regards to the whole support makes equivalent money to junglers); is junglers are forced into a 2k gold jungling item.
what items are we talking about
twin shadows - sees some play on mids especially tf, rarely on supports
shard of true ice --> some play on supports just an AoE CC item
shurelyas --> some play on supports out of philo but really cost ineffective these days
mikaels --> sees a lot of play on supports because of the strong active
zekes-->sees some play on supports in certain comps maybe
only twin shadows is a good solo laner item and no jungler would want any of these
|
On August 01 2013 04:23 TheYango wrote:
A lot of people asked "how is a weaker Locket/Aegis worse for the game?", "didn't Locket/Aegis have to be nerfed because they were so strong that we were seeing them every game?"
The whole idea that Aegis/Locket had to be nerfed because they were "too strong" is just ludicrous. There is no such thing as an item being overpowered. Both teams have equal access to all items. A particular item being strong does not actually influence balance in the strictest sense. It is entirely a question of gameplay--what gameplay options does an item promote?
To that question, there are a couple ways an item can create gameplay:
- It can create interesting strategic decisions for a player when considering his item purchasing choices (e.g. immediate effectiveness vs. long-term gain stat tradeoffs)
- It can directly be a gameplay tool (e.g. active items)
- It creates particular timings that interact with champion kits to create points of strength/weakness for teams to play around
Conversely, this means that an item which is "too strong" removes gameplay by removing strategic decisions. The natural belief from this point, then, is that Locket/Aegis were bad for the game because by being must-buys they removed options for other items to be purchased.
This view is flawed however, because it is predicated on 2 points: a) that the items were only good as one-ofs, and b) only one person would buy them. This was categorically not true for Locket. The short duration of the active's "half-effect" debuff meant that the item was very good in multiples, and the item, despite being cheap, was also very slot-efficient, meaning that it could be bought by higher position champions, and not just the jungler/support. If we consider the number of strategic gameplay options arising from item decisions to be related to the number of viable permutations of items which could be bought, Locket being must-buy but buyable in multiples and reasonable on any of the 5 champions on a team results in more gameplay permutations than Locket not being must-buy but only worth buying on a single champion.
Several support items in DotA are actually balanced based on this type of gameplay. For example, Mekansm is virtually considered to be must-buy, but the number of heroes that can reasonably buy it means that there are a vast number of ways to assign the burden of buying it on a particular team. Force Staff is similarly important to have as a one-of, but the item is fantastic in multiples and is a legitimate item choice for even many carry heroes.
An item can be overpowered in comparison to other items, which will lead to those other items not being purchased.
If there was a 1 gold item that gave 10k HP, I think I know what everybodies starting items would be. Anybody who didn't buy it would simply lose the game.
I feel like your entire argument is pretty silly, here.
|
United States47024 Posts
Mikael's would be a better solo laner item if Tear didn't outperform every other regen item on solo laners, and if people sat down and got good at self-using it.
On August 01 2013 04:23 Ketara wrote:
When (and why) did supports ever stop building Philo anyway?
I'm not sure I ever understood that.
It stopped being good in late S2 when proper games dictated earlier teamfights that meant Philo wouldn't pay off quickly enough to be worth getting a 0-combat-stat item. Of course, people still got it because a lot of NA/EU pro games were sufficiently slow-paced to allow for the item.
Nowadays, the pace of the game is simply too fast. You need combat stats too soon to be able to afford a Philo--regen stats have no value in fights so the item simply doesn't do anything at the point where fights start happening. By the time it pays out, the game can already be decided.
|
On August 01 2013 04:25 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 04:21 XilDarkz wrote:
I remember reading something about how you should focus on winning lanes, and that outside of the professional level that is the best way to win. I call bullshit. If winning lanes meant winning the game, I wouldn't have a measly 55% winrate as Syndra. I've played games with Gtsrs where lanes are completely and utterly lost, and we easily win the game, despite a huge laning deficit.
I say lanes are not nearly as important in this game as in Dota because of the apparent impossibility of shutting someone down--you don't lose gold or nearly as much time when you die. Maybe that just means your game outside of laning phase is so bad that its hurting your winrate, despite stomping lane? It's like the reverse silsol.
There's a reason Janna has one of the highest winrates in solo Q. Janna/X is not exactly a "win lane" set up regardless of who you pair her with. One bad team fight can easily mean the game is over in Solo Q because of the way people behave even when they are ahead.
|
vayne is still same bullshit as ever i see no difference after the nerfs
|
On August 01 2013 04:28 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 04:17 wei2coolman wrote:On August 01 2013 04:02 Slayer91 wrote:On August 01 2013 03:58 wei2coolman wrote:On August 01 2013 03:55 Slayer91 wrote:On August 01 2013 03:32 wei2coolman wrote:Looking into master yi's kit a bit more; is there a point in building LW? his on hit true damage seems so good already that LW seems like a very luxury buy. Yi is almost required to build at least 2 big defensive items; just due to his melee nature. Leaving 3 core offensive items for him. Is BT (or hydra)/LW/Shiv(or PD) really the best choice for him? Or perhaps he's got more of the 3 hybrid offensive/defensive item build going for him; with 1 massive offensive and defensive item? hexdrinker/atma's/fmallet; On August 01 2013 03:04 Slayer91 wrote:
dunno why people are bitching about support items being bad, if you dont like em get deathcap or randuins or something Not sure if serious... serious the problem with support items isn't that they're bad; they're too expensive. That's like saying "if you don't like lambo's go buy a ferrari", to a crack addict who's living on foodstamps. an item thats too expensive is the same thing as an item thats bad or if supports dont have enough gold thats not really an item problem its more that every support is buying a billino wards and pinks and oracles in baron baits supopotrs dont get much less gold than a jungler honestly Not really; those items are solid items for solo laners, problem is there's no strategies that are based on support solo laners (any more). The reason junglers don't grab these items (as in regards to the whole support makes equivalent money to junglers); is junglers are forced into a 2k gold jungling item. what items are we talking about twin shadows - sees some play on mids especially tf, rarely on supports shard of true ice --> some play on supports just an AoE CC item shurelyas --> some play on supports out of philo but really cost ineffective these days mikaels --> sees a lot of play on supports because of the strong active zekes-->sees some play on supports in certain comps maybe only twin shadows is a good solo laner item and no jungler would want any of these
Zeke's is pretty good on certain top laners; and a lot of the top laners thats its good on is out of flavor.
shard of true ice would be pretty good on something like lulu/raka mid.
shurelyas got gutted; the only reason it's even been built by supports is because you already have the obligatory philostone in your build; and it's the next cheapest item to follow up on your currently starved african child build.
mikaels, actually doesn't see that much support play at all; simply because it's too expensive. I think I've seen it in NA lcs like once. It's actually much more suited for a solo laner; something like nunu-top (before the changes) would've put it to good use.
On August 01 2013 04:30 TheYango wrote:Mikael's would be a better solo laner item if Tear didn't outperform every other regen item on solo laners, and if people sat down and got good at self-using it. Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 04:23 Ketara wrote:
When (and why) did supports ever stop building Philo anyway?
I'm not sure I ever understood that. It stopped being good in late S2 when proper games dictated earlier teamfights that meant Philo wouldn't pay off quickly enough to be worth getting a 0-combat-stat item. Of course, people still got it because a lot of NA/EU pro games were sufficiently slow-paced to allow for the item. Nowadays, the pace of the game is simply too fast. You need combat stats too soon to be able to afford a Philo--regen stats have no value in fights so the item simply doesn't do anything at the point where fights start happening. By the time it pays out, the game can already be decided.
So what your saying is HoG needs to be reintroduced.
|
United States47024 Posts
On August 01 2013 04:30 Ketara wrote:
An item can be overpowered in comparison to other items, which will lead to those other items not being purchased.
If there was a 1 gold item that gave 10k HP, I think I know what everybodies starting items would be.
I feel like your entire argument is pretty silly, here.
Your counter-argument is absurd. It's true that it's degenerate if an item outshines the alternatives all the time on everyone. But seeing as between 1 and 3 Lockets was good on some combination of varying champions on a team, that leaves a LOT of room for variation.
Locket would be degenerate if it was edging out every other item as your first major item on jungler or support every game. But that's not the case. If someone else gets a locket, you immediately can fall back to other options. You get more permutations out of being able to juggle/reassign Locket buying to any of the various champions in the game because the number of alternatives even if Locket weren't there is not that high. That's my point. The number of gameplay options you gain by having some variations in who gets locket when is more than the permutations you gain from not having to always get Locket, because the number of alternative purchases is pretty low.
EDIT: Not to mention, there isn't even fundamentally anything wrong with an item being must-buy on all 5 champions every game. Boots?
|
On August 01 2013 04:30 TheYango wrote:Mikael's would be a better solo laner item if Tear didn't outperform every other regen item on solo laners, and if people sat down and got good at self-using it. Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 04:23 Ketara wrote:
When (and why) did supports ever stop building Philo anyway?
I'm not sure I ever understood that. It stopped being good in late S2 when proper games dictated earlier teamfights that meant Philo wouldn't pay off quickly enough to be worth getting a 0-combat-stat item. Of course, people still got it because a lot of NA/EU pro games were sufficiently slow-paced to allow for the item. Nowadays, the pace of the game is simply too fast. You need combat stats too soon to be able to afford a Philo--regen stats have no value in fights so the item simply doesn't do anything at the point where fights start happening. By the time it pays out, the game can already be decided.
I suppose I can see that on like Leona and Thresh and such, but supports like Sona and Nami really need the MP regen from Philo in lane. Were people just getting a couple faerie charms and building Chalice when they could afford it?
|
United States47024 Posts
They got better at managing their mana.
Also, you don't need mana regen in lane when you're in a 2v1 lane.
|
United States23745 Posts
On August 01 2013 04:36 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 04:30 TheYango wrote:Mikael's would be a better solo laner item if Tear didn't outperform every other regen item on solo laners, and if people sat down and got good at self-using it. On August 01 2013 04:23 Ketara wrote:
When (and why) did supports ever stop building Philo anyway?
I'm not sure I ever understood that. It stopped being good in late S2 when proper games dictated earlier teamfights that meant Philo wouldn't pay off quickly enough to be worth getting a 0-combat-stat item. Of course, people still got it because a lot of NA/EU pro games were sufficiently slow-paced to allow for the item. Nowadays, the pace of the game is simply too fast. You need combat stats too soon to be able to afford a Philo--regen stats have no value in fights so the item simply doesn't do anything at the point where fights start happening. By the time it pays out, the game can already be decided. I suppose I can see that on like Leona and Thresh and such, but supports like Sona and Nami really need the MP regen from Philo in lane. Were people just getting a couple faerie charms and building Chalice when they could afford it?
Q max Nami doesn't have a lot of mana problems :3
I open Faerie charm and find that's usually enough mana regen to get through laning phase (where it is most important)
|
On August 01 2013 04:37 TheYango wrote:
They got better at managing their mana.
Also, you don't need mana regen in lane when you're in a 2v1 lane.
I think that's a lot of the problem with support items. All of them have regen stats... expensive expensive regen stats.
|
United States47024 Posts
For some reason, Riot thinks regen stats are useful for supports, when they're probably the role that uses them the least.
|
On August 01 2013 04:41 TheYango wrote:
For some reason, Riot thinks regen stats are useful for supports, when they're probably the role that uses them the least.
Sona maybe only support I can think of that runs into a little bit of mana issue.
I think the reason regen stats are so popular on the items is because the support items only allow for either all ward openings; or 1 regen item + wards opening.
|
Is:
gp/10 ; armor ; armor ; magic res
still a good all around support rune page?
|
Need that ruby shard 
|
On August 01 2013 04:33 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 04:28 Slayer91 wrote:On August 01 2013 04:17 wei2coolman wrote:On August 01 2013 04:02 Slayer91 wrote:On August 01 2013 03:58 wei2coolman wrote:On August 01 2013 03:55 Slayer91 wrote:On August 01 2013 03:32 wei2coolman wrote:Looking into master yi's kit a bit more; is there a point in building LW? his on hit true damage seems so good already that LW seems like a very luxury buy. Yi is almost required to build at least 2 big defensive items; just due to his melee nature. Leaving 3 core offensive items for him. Is BT (or hydra)/LW/Shiv(or PD) really the best choice for him? Or perhaps he's got more of the 3 hybrid offensive/defensive item build going for him; with 1 massive offensive and defensive item? hexdrinker/atma's/fmallet; On August 01 2013 03:04 Slayer91 wrote:
dunno why people are bitching about support items being bad, if you dont like em get deathcap or randuins or something Not sure if serious... serious the problem with support items isn't that they're bad; they're too expensive. That's like saying "if you don't like lambo's go buy a ferrari", to a crack addict who's living on foodstamps. an item thats too expensive is the same thing as an item thats bad or if supports dont have enough gold thats not really an item problem its more that every support is buying a billino wards and pinks and oracles in baron baits supopotrs dont get much less gold than a jungler honestly Not really; those items are solid items for solo laners, problem is there's no strategies that are based on support solo laners (any more). The reason junglers don't grab these items (as in regards to the whole support makes equivalent money to junglers); is junglers are forced into a 2k gold jungling item. what items are we talking about twin shadows - sees some play on mids especially tf, rarely on supports shard of true ice --> some play on supports just an AoE CC item shurelyas --> some play on supports out of philo but really cost ineffective these days mikaels --> sees a lot of play on supports because of the strong active zekes-->sees some play on supports in certain comps maybe only twin shadows is a good solo laner item and no jungler would want any of these Zeke's is pretty good on certain top laners; and a lot of the top laners thats its good on is out of flavor. shard of true ice would be pretty good on something like lulu/raka mid. shurelyas got gutted; the only reason it's even been built by supports is because you already have the obligatory philostone in your build; and it's the next cheapest item to follow up on your currently starved african child build. mikaels, actually doesn't see that much support play at all; simply because it's too expensive. I think I've seen it in NA lcs like once. It's actually much more suited for a solo laner; something like nunu-top (before the changes) would've put it to good use. Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 04:30 TheYango wrote:Mikael's would be a better solo laner item if Tear didn't outperform every other regen item on solo laners, and if people sat down and got good at self-using it. On August 01 2013 04:23 Ketara wrote:
When (and why) did supports ever stop building Philo anyway?
I'm not sure I ever understood that. It stopped being good in late S2 when proper games dictated earlier teamfights that meant Philo wouldn't pay off quickly enough to be worth getting a 0-combat-stat item. Of course, people still got it because a lot of NA/EU pro games were sufficiently slow-paced to allow for the item. Nowadays, the pace of the game is simply too fast. You need combat stats too soon to be able to afford a Philo--regen stats have no value in fights so the item simply doesn't do anything at the point where fights start happening. By the time it pays out, the game can already be decided. So what your saying is HoG needs to be reintroduced.
Dude.... Sighstone is a HoG that shits out ward, instead of giving gp10. If you did some math, it would be REALLY close to the income gained from shitting out 75g compared to gp10.
On August 01 2013 04:45 ComaDose wrote:
Is:
gp/10 ; armor ; armor ; magic res
still a good all around support rune page?
Yes. It obsoletes alot of pages with mp5, ad etc.
|
Lulu can easily get oom super fast too. :<
Also EUW having lag problems atm.
The new icons are pretty ugly. I mean, they already weren't good or anything in full res, but with the size of the ingame icons they're just a bunch of pixels at the seams.
|
On August 01 2013 04:47 Alaric wrote:
Lulu can easily get oom super fast too. :<
Also EUW having lag problems atm.
Anyone can get oom super fast, though.
|
Really happy about the Ryze changes, midlaning vs him was really frustrating. Master Yi seemed a bit strong too, it seemed he just couldn't have a bad early game and just got stronger with time.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
