[Patch 3.10: Yimake Patch] General Discussion - Page 22

On August 01 2013 04:21 XilDarkz wrote:
I remember reading something about how you should focus on winning lanes, and that outside of the professional level that is the best way to win. I call bullshit. If winning lanes meant winning the game, I wouldn't have a measly 55% winrate as Syndra. I've played games with Gtsrs where lanes are completely and utterly lost, and we easily win the game, despite a huge laning deficit.

I say lanes are not nearly as important in this game as in Dota because of the apparent impossibility of shutting someone down--you don't lose gold or nearly as much time when you die.

On August 01 2013 04:17 wei2coolman wrote:

Not really; those items are solid items for solo laners, problem is there's no strategies that are based on support solo laners (any more).
The reason junglers don't grab these items (as in regards to the whole support makes equivalent money to junglers); is junglers are forced into a 2k gold jungling item.

On August 01 2013 04:23 TheYango wrote:
A lot of people asked "how is a weaker Locket/Aegis worse for the game?", "didn't Locket/Aegis have to be nerfed because they were so strong that we were seeing them every game?"

The whole idea that Aegis/Locket had to be nerfed because they were "too strong" is just ludicrous. There is no such thing as an item being overpowered. Both teams have equal access to all items. A particular item being strong does not actually influence balance in the strictest sense. It is entirely a question of gameplay--what gameplay options does an item promote?

To that question, there are a couple ways an item can create gameplay:
- It can create interesting strategic decisions for a player when considering his item purchasing choices (e.g. immediate effectiveness vs. long-term gain stat tradeoffs)
- It can directly be a gameplay tool (e.g. active items)
- It creates particular timings that interact with champion kits to create points of strength/weakness for teams to play around

Conversely, this means that an item which is "too strong" removes gameplay by removing strategic decisions. The natural belief from this point, then, is that Locket/Aegis were bad for the game because by being must-buys they removed options for other items to be purchased.

This view is flawed however, because it is predicated on 2 points: a) that the items were only good as one-ofs, and b) only one person would buy them. This was categorically not true for Locket. The short duration of the active's "half-effect" debuff meant that the item was very good in multiples, and the item, despite being cheap, was also very slot-efficient, meaning that it could be bought by higher position champions, and not just the jungler/support. If we consider the number of strategic gameplay options arising from item decisions to be related to the number of viable permutations of items which could be bought, Locket being must-buy but buyable in multiples and reasonable on any of the 5 champions on a team results in more gameplay permutations than Locket not being must-buy but only worth buying on a single champion.

Several support items in DotA are actually balanced based on this type of gameplay. For example, Mekansm is virtually considered to be must-buy, but the number of heroes that can reasonably buy it means that there are a vast number of ways to assign the burden of buying it on a particular team. Force Staff is similarly important to have as a one-of, but the item is fantastic in multiples and is a legitimate item choice for even many carry heroes.

On August 01 2013 04:23 Ketara wrote:
When (and why) did supports ever stop building Philo anyway?

I'm not sure I ever understood that.

On August 01 2013 04:25 wei2coolman wrote:

Maybe that just means your game outside of laning phase is so bad that its hurting your winrate, despite stomping lane?
It's like the reverse silsol.

On August 01 2013 04:28 Slayer91 wrote:

what items are we talking about
twin shadows - sees some play on mids especially tf, rarely on supports
shard of true ice --> some play on supports just an AoE CC item
shurelyas --> some play on supports out of philo but really cost ineffective these days
mikaels --> sees a lot of play on supports because of the strong active
zekes-->sees some play on supports in certain comps maybe
only twin shadows is a good solo laner item and no jungler would want any of these

On August 01 2013 04:30 TheYango wrote:
Mikael's would be a better solo laner item if Tear didn't outperform every other regen item on solo laners, and if people sat down and got good at self-using it.


It stopped being good in late S2 when proper games dictated earlier teamfights that meant Philo wouldn't pay off quickly enough to be worth getting a 0-combat-stat item. Of course, people still got it because a lot of NA/EU pro games were sufficiently slow-paced to allow for the item.

Nowadays, the pace of the game is simply too fast. You need combat stats too soon to be able to afford a Philo--regen stats have no value in fights so the item simply doesn't do anything at the point where fights start happening. By the time it pays out, the game can already be decided.

On August 01 2013 04:30 Ketara wrote:
An item can be overpowered in comparison to other items, which will lead to those other items not being purchased.

If there was a 1 gold item that gave 10k HP, I think I know what everybodies starting items would be.

I feel like your entire argument is pretty silly, here.

On August 01 2013 04:30 TheYango wrote:
Mikael's would be a better solo laner item if Tear didn't outperform every other regen item on solo laners, and if people sat down and got good at self-using it.


It stopped being good in late S2 when proper games dictated earlier teamfights that meant Philo wouldn't pay off quickly enough to be worth getting a 0-combat-stat item. Of course, people still got it because a lot of NA/EU pro games were sufficiently slow-paced to allow for the item.

Nowadays, the pace of the game is simply too fast. You need combat stats too soon to be able to afford a Philo--regen stats have no value in fights so the item simply doesn't do anything at the point where fights start happening. By the time it pays out, the game can already be decided.

On August 01 2013 04:36 Ketara wrote:


I suppose I can see that on like Leona and Thresh and such, but supports like Sona and Nami really need the MP regen from Philo in lane. Were people just getting a couple faerie charms and building Chalice when they could afford it?

On August 01 2013 04:37 TheYango wrote:
They got better at managing their mana.

Also, you don't need mana regen in lane when you're in a 2v1 lane.

On August 01 2013 04:41 TheYango wrote:
For some reason, Riot thinks regen stats are useful for supports, when they're probably the role that uses them the least.

On August 01 2013 04:33 wei2coolman wrote:

Zeke's is pretty good on certain top laners; and a lot of the top laners thats its good on is out of flavor.
shard of true ice would be pretty good on something like lulu/raka mid.
shurelyas got gutted; the only reason it's even been built by supports is because you already have the obligatory philostone in your build; and it's the next cheapest item to follow up on your currently starved african child build.
mikaels, actually doesn't see that much support play at all; simply because it's too expensive. I think I've seen it in NA lcs like once. It's actually much more suited for a solo laner; something like nunu-top (before the changes) would've put it to good use.

So what your saying is HoG needs to be reintroduced.

On August 01 2013 04:45 ComaDose wrote:
Is:
gp/10 ; armor ; armor ; magic res
still a good all around support rune page?

On August 01 2013 04:47 Alaric wrote:
Lulu can easily get oom super fast too. :<

Also EUW having lag problems atm.