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537 Posts
Imagine if you could choose between Starks, Aegis, Locket, Shurelya, or Soul Shroud, all when they were at their peak power, depending on what kind of team you were running/playing against. Now you get your sight stone, some boots, and wards are more valuable than anything else you can reasonable afford. If you're rolling in money maybe you get Shurelya's because it's the second cheapest item that builds out of Kindlegem, and it's slightly less selfish than Ancient Golem. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On August 01 2013 03:41 Requizen wrote: Sure you have true damage, but the rest is physical. Maybe LW is too much, but against multiple armor stackers, you might want it. Obviously when it gets to the point of where they have like 300 armor; because your entire team is AD (I'm look at you Vulcun, and CLG). Then LW becomes an efficient buy. But, pure attackspeed + AD seems like such a good buy with it now. I'd like to see some maths done on some 3 item combo's at different armor values. As far as support items go; currently most of them fit more for those who require solo farm utility based solo laners. Something that doesn't exist because ADC's no longer carry as hard; so going multiple supports is a shitty strategy because it's outclassed by multi-threats. | ||
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UniversalSnip
9871 Posts
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
On August 01 2013 03:32 wei2coolman wrote: Looking into master yi's kit a bit more; is there a point in building LW? his on hit true damage seems so good already that LW seems like a very luxury buy. Yi is almost required to build at least 2 big defensive items; just due to his melee nature. Leaving 3 core offensive items for him. Is BT (or hydra)/LW/Shiv(or PD) really the best choice for him? Or perhaps he's got more of the 3 hybrid offensive/defensive item build going for him; with 1 massive offensive and defensive item? hexdrinker/atma's/fmallet; Not sure if serious... serious | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
the problem with support items isn't that they're bad; they're too expensive. That's like saying "if you don't like lambo's go buy a ferrari", to a crack addict who's living on foodstamps. | ||
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Haiq343
United States2548 Posts
On August 01 2013 03:53 UniversalSnip wrote: I don't think the problem with support items is that they're bad (although they're not all stars to say the least, clearly), it's more that none of them except sightstone have the combination of low low cost and a dominating percentage of the gold value coming from utility. There's also no way you can compete with buying wards in value, which is really a separate problem, but even if you solved that you have the issue that support items don't even push in the right direction. Support items should be utility focused, fairly cheap and stupidly slot inefficient. People have tossed ideas for scaled down versions of the actives of some of the existing and underwhelming support items. As a support I want enough HP to not die incidentally, cdd and maybe a tiny splash of regen. Everything else I'd even consider needs some effect that benefits the teammates I'm pooling farm towards, that's the whole idea of a support. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
On August 01 2013 03:58 wei2coolman wrote: the problem with support items isn't that they're bad; they're too expensive. That's like saying "if you don't like lambo's go buy a ferrari", to a crack addict who's living on foodstamps. an item thats too expensive is the same thing as an item thats bad or if supports dont have enough gold thats not really an item problem its more that every support is buying a billino wards and pinks and oracles in baron baits supopotrs dont get much less gold than a jungler honestly | ||
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UniversalSnip
9871 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On August 01 2013 04:04 UniversalSnip wrote: Another thing is that support items always have fucking huge cooldowns, so you'd better REALLY want that effect if you buy it. There's no reason these cds can't be more like... tiamat's. I hate the stupid three minute cd on crucible especially. At this point we're looking at a fun issue rather than balance but it really irks me. Fundamentally it's only ever a "fun" issue. Balance in the context of items doesn't make any sense because every champion has access to the same item pool. So the only question ever relevant to an item is "does it create fun and meaningful gameplay". | ||
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Zdrastochye
Ivory Coast6262 Posts
On August 01 2013 04:07 TheYango wrote: Fundamentally it's only ever a "fun" issue. Balance in the context of items doesn't make any sense because every champion has access to the same item pool. So the only question ever relevant to an item is "does it create fun and meaningful gameplay". Yes and no. Certain items interact with different champions because of their kits. Blue build exists for every single person, but you're gonna be noticing it's different on Ezreal than it is on Zed. Everyone has the same items, but different items behave differently for each champion, and what can be "fun" for one, can be "unfun" for another. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
Balance in a MOBA isn't conceptually the same as balance in an RTS. The only issues of balance in the RTS fairness sense are blue/purple imbalance and first pick/second pick imbalance. Everything else is a matter of "is this fun to play/play against". | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On August 01 2013 04:02 Slayer91 wrote: an item thats too expensive is the same thing as an item thats bad or if supports dont have enough gold thats not really an item problem its more that every support is buying a billino wards and pinks and oracles in baron baits supopotrs dont get much less gold than a jungler honestly Not really; those items are solid items for solo laners, problem is there's no strategies that are based on support solo laners (any more). The reason junglers don't grab these items (as in regards to the whole support makes equivalent money to junglers); is junglers are forced into a 2k gold jungling item. | ||
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Thetan
240 Posts
Am I being silly in thinking that Sightstone might actually be an early game buy for Junglers now? | ||
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XilDarkz
United States563 Posts
I say lanes are not nearly as important in this game as in Dota because of the apparent impossibility of shutting someone down--you don't lose gold or nearly as much time when you die. | ||
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IMoperator
4476 Posts
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
I'm not sure I ever understood that. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
The whole idea that Aegis/Locket had to be nerfed because they were "too strong" is just ludicrous. There is no such thing as an item being overpowered. Both teams have equal access to all items. A particular item being strong does not actually influence balance in the strictest sense. It is entirely a question of gameplay--what gameplay options does an item promote? To that question, there are a couple ways an item can create gameplay: - It can create interesting strategic decisions for a player when considering his item purchasing choices (e.g. immediate effectiveness vs. long-term gain stat tradeoffs) - It can directly be a gameplay tool (e.g. active items) - It creates particular timings that interact with champion kits to create points of strength/weakness for teams to play around Conversely, this means that an item which is "too strong" removes gameplay by removing strategic decisions. The natural belief from this point, then, is that Locket/Aegis were bad for the game because by being must-buys they removed options for other items to be purchased. This view is flawed however, because it is predicated on 2 points: a) that the items were only good as one-ofs, and b) only one person would buy them. This was categorically not true for Locket. The short duration of the active's "half-effect" debuff meant that the item was very good in multiples, and the item, despite being cheap, was also very slot-efficient, meaning that it could be bought by higher position champions, and not just the jungler/support. If we consider the number of strategic gameplay options arising from item decisions to be related to the number of viable permutations of items which could be bought, Locket being must-buy but buyable in multiples and reasonable on any of the 5 champions on a team results in more gameplay permutations than Locket not being must-buy but only worth buying on a single champion. Several support items in DotA are actually balanced based on this type of gameplay. For example, Mekansm is virtually considered to be must-buy, but the number of heroes that can reasonably buy it means that there are a vast number of ways to assign the burden of buying it on a particular team. Force Staff is similarly important to have as a one-of, but the item is fantastic in multiples and is a legitimate item choice for even many carry heroes. | ||
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SnK-Arcbound
United States4423 Posts
On August 01 2013 04:21 Thetan wrote: What do I buy on junglers now, especially if the other team doesn't have much Magic damage threat? The build-up to locket vs a mostly AD team seems really awkward now... Am I being silly in thinking that Sightstone might actually be an early game buy for Junglers now? Randuins/FH. Sunfire dps is wasted on a jungler especially since you'll be delayed in finishing it. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On August 01 2013 04:21 XilDarkz wrote: I remember reading something about how you should focus on winning lanes, and that outside of the professional level that is the best way to win. I call bullshit. If winning lanes meant winning the game, I wouldn't have a measly 55% winrate as Syndra. I've played games with Gtsrs where lanes are completely and utterly lost, and we easily win the game, despite a huge laning deficit. I say lanes are not nearly as important in this game as in Dota because of the apparent impossibility of shutting someone down--you don't lose gold or nearly as much time when you die. Maybe that just means your game outside of laning phase is so bad that its hurting your winrate, despite stomping lane? It's like the reverse silsol. | ||
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TheLink
Australia2725 Posts
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