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On August 01 2013 04:30 TheYango wrote:Mikael's would be a better solo laner item if Tear didn't outperform every other regen item on solo laners, and if people sat down and got good at self-using it. Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 04:23 Ketara wrote:
When (and why) did supports ever stop building Philo anyway?
I'm not sure I ever understood that. It stopped being good in late S2 when proper games dictated earlier teamfights that meant Philo wouldn't pay off quickly enough to be worth getting a 0-combat-stat item. Of course, people still got it because a lot of NA/EU pro games were sufficiently slow-paced to allow for the item. Nowadays, the pace of the game is simply too fast. You need combat stats too soon to be able to afford a Philo--regen stats have no value in fights so the item simply doesn't do anything at the point where fights start happening. By the time it pays out, the game can already be decided.
Shurelias got nerfed from being a staple utility item. Recent changes to Mikaels increase the popularity of Philo some, but the active is not as ubiquitously useful as the aura items.
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I think support items having some mana regen is fine, but it does seem awkward the amount of HP regen that Philo, Shurelya and Ohmwrecker have.
Ohmwreckers statistics in particular are just super awkward and make no sense.
Here's a challenge for Yango. Show us some rebalanced stats / build paths / prices for Shurelya, Ohmwrecker and Mikaels that have them still build out of Philo and make them more in line with your idea for support items.
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United States47024 Posts
Why do you want them to build out of Philo, Philo is a garbage item for supports.
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On August 01 2013 04:47 Sponkz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 04:33 wei2coolman wrote:On August 01 2013 04:28 Slayer91 wrote:On August 01 2013 04:17 wei2coolman wrote:On August 01 2013 04:02 Slayer91 wrote:On August 01 2013 03:58 wei2coolman wrote:On August 01 2013 03:55 Slayer91 wrote:On August 01 2013 03:32 wei2coolman wrote:Looking into master yi's kit a bit more; is there a point in building LW? his on hit true damage seems so good already that LW seems like a very luxury buy. Yi is almost required to build at least 2 big defensive items; just due to his melee nature. Leaving 3 core offensive items for him. Is BT (or hydra)/LW/Shiv(or PD) really the best choice for him? Or perhaps he's got more of the 3 hybrid offensive/defensive item build going for him; with 1 massive offensive and defensive item? hexdrinker/atma's/fmallet; On August 01 2013 03:04 Slayer91 wrote:
dunno why people are bitching about support items being bad, if you dont like em get deathcap or randuins or something Not sure if serious... serious the problem with support items isn't that they're bad; they're too expensive. That's like saying "if you don't like lambo's go buy a ferrari", to a crack addict who's living on foodstamps. an item thats too expensive is the same thing as an item thats bad or if supports dont have enough gold thats not really an item problem its more that every support is buying a billino wards and pinks and oracles in baron baits supopotrs dont get much less gold than a jungler honestly Not really; those items are solid items for solo laners, problem is there's no strategies that are based on support solo laners (any more). The reason junglers don't grab these items (as in regards to the whole support makes equivalent money to junglers); is junglers are forced into a 2k gold jungling item. what items are we talking about twin shadows - sees some play on mids especially tf, rarely on supports shard of true ice --> some play on supports just an AoE CC item shurelyas --> some play on supports out of philo but really cost ineffective these days mikaels --> sees a lot of play on supports because of the strong active zekes-->sees some play on supports in certain comps maybe only twin shadows is a good solo laner item and no jungler would want any of these Zeke's is pretty good on certain top laners; and a lot of the top laners thats its good on is out of flavor. shard of true ice would be pretty good on something like lulu/raka mid. shurelyas got gutted; the only reason it's even been built by supports is because you already have the obligatory philostone in your build; and it's the next cheapest item to follow up on your currently starved african child build. mikaels, actually doesn't see that much support play at all; simply because it's too expensive. I think I've seen it in NA lcs like once. It's actually much more suited for a solo laner; something like nunu-top (before the changes) would've put it to good use. On August 01 2013 04:30 TheYango wrote:Mikael's would be a better solo laner item if Tear didn't outperform every other regen item on solo laners, and if people sat down and got good at self-using it. On August 01 2013 04:23 Ketara wrote:
When (and why) did supports ever stop building Philo anyway?
I'm not sure I ever understood that. It stopped being good in late S2 when proper games dictated earlier teamfights that meant Philo wouldn't pay off quickly enough to be worth getting a 0-combat-stat item. Of course, people still got it because a lot of NA/EU pro games were sufficiently slow-paced to allow for the item. Nowadays, the pace of the game is simply too fast. You need combat stats too soon to be able to afford a Philo--regen stats have no value in fights so the item simply doesn't do anything at the point where fights start happening. By the time it pays out, the game can already be decided. So what your saying is HoG needs to be reintroduced. Dude.... Sighstone is a HoG that shits out ward, instead of giving gp10. If you did some math, it would be REALLY close to the income gained from shitting out 75g compared to gp10.
I was joking... I've made that comparison before.
On August 01 2013 05:00 TheYango wrote:
Why do you want them to build out of Philo, Philo is a garbage item for supports.
I still think philo is alright; I really dislike the no-item opening from supports; and the only realistic item that you can really open up with is either faerie charm, or rejuv bead. Though recently I've liked opening rejuv bead into early emblem of valor; into sight stone.
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On August 01 2013 05:00 TheYango wrote:
Why do you want them to build out of Philo, Philo is a garbage item for supports.
Then screw with Philo's stats too. I want them to build out of Philo because I don't think Riot will ever change that. I want to see if you can rebalance the items consistent with how you think support items should be, while staying consistent to what Riot is probably likely to do.
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@wei2coolman
I feel like such a retard, for not getting it right away. I see it clearly now :<
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On August 01 2013 04:45 ComaDose wrote:
Is:
gp/10 ; armor ; armor ; magic res
still a good all around support rune page?
I think this is the standard support rune setup
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On August 01 2013 05:00 TheYango wrote:
Why do you want them to build out of Philo, Philo is a garbage item for supports.
There are worse items for supports.
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On August 01 2013 05:02 Ketara wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 05:00 TheYango wrote:
Why do you want them to build out of Philo, Philo is a garbage item for supports. Then screw with Philo's stats too. I want them to build out of Philo because I don't think Riot will ever change that. I want to see if you can rebalance the items consistent with how you think support items should be, while staying consistent to what Riot is probably likely to do.
What if it built out of boots+philostone? would be an awesome tier 2 boots.
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On August 01 2013 05:08 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 05:02 Ketara wrote:On August 01 2013 05:00 TheYango wrote:
Why do you want them to build out of Philo, Philo is a garbage item for supports. Then screw with Philo's stats too. I want them to build out of Philo because I don't think Riot will ever change that. I want to see if you can rebalance the items consistent with how you think support items should be, while staying consistent to what Riot is probably likely to do. What if it built out of boots+philostone? would be an awesome tier 2 boots.
Midas Boot meta inc
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On August 01 2013 04:23 Ketara wrote:
When (and why) did supports ever stop building Philo anyway?
I'm not sure I ever understood that.
It gradually became the case since Sightstone came out. It's better now due to SS being easier to complete, but the trend had been started. The boost that SS gives you is so important that it is worth rushing before Philo. Philo was skipped because locket was the next best thing to rush after SS. You will probably see more Philo now since Shurelia's is the best option after SS.
Philo first is still viable. It's not a bad start. It's really good. It's just inferior to SS. However, if you get an early lead and are confident in your vision it's rather snowbally to go Philo first due to the early gold/5.
And there you have it. SS->~Boots1-2ish->Shurelia's on every support pretty much. Spend the remaining gold on vision wards and oracles.
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Need a boots upgrade that gives you a jump or dash as an active. No gap closer, no problem.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 01 2013 05:00 wei2coolman wrote:
I still think philo is alright; I really dislike the no-item opening from supports; and the only realistic item that you can really open up with is either faerie charm, or rejuv bead. Though recently I've liked opening rejuv bead into early emblem of valor; into sight stone.
No-item opening is the logical extension of how HP/mana pots outperform the initial regen items, and having extra wards at the start is simply just better than the support having an item.
It really just goes back to the same old issue of "why should a support have items when they can get more wards?"
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On August 01 2013 05:11 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 05:00 wei2coolman wrote:
I still think philo is alright; I really dislike the no-item opening from supports; and the only realistic item that you can really open up with is either faerie charm, or rejuv bead. Though recently I've liked opening rejuv bead into early emblem of valor; into sight stone. No-item opening is the logical extension of how HP/mana pots outperform the initial regen items, and having extra wards at the start is simply just better than the support having an item. It really just goes back to the same old issue of "why should a support have items when they can get more wards?"
Well then, isn't the obvious solution something like: Make an item/a couple items that are cheap enough for everyone (like 800g max) that gives (useful) a team active or aura that doesn't stack and does not have personal stats. That way, you make an item that supports can afford alongside wards, and although other laners might want the stats, they wouldn't get it themselves.
Like, what if there was a ~400g (just estimating) item that was a mini Heal/Clarity, that is, a mini heal/mana heal in a radius around the user which scaled with how many people it hit and 0 stats otherwise, aside from maybe some health or a small amount of MS. Anyone affected by it could not be affected by it again until it came off CD, so you can't stack them across teammates. The heal/regen would be miniscule alone, noticeably better on 2, and very good on a full team. This makes it an item that gets better as the game goes on, gives the support something to buy/use aside from wards, but disincentives it from solo laners/junglers.
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On August 01 2013 04:58 Ketara wrote:
I think support items having some mana regen is fine, but it does seem awkward the amount of HP regen that Philo, Shurelya and Ohmwrecker have.
Ohmwreckers statistics in particular are just super awkward and make no sense.
Here's a challenge for Yango. Show us some rebalanced stats / build paths / prices for Shurelya, Ohmwrecker and Mikaels that have them still build out of Philo and make them more in line with your idea for support items.
Shurelya - just the active
Ohmwrecker - Target allied unit gains Turret Priority until it dies/leaves turret range
Mikaels - Target champion gets +X Tenacity for X seconds
~1000g each. No build paths, just a single item. No stats besides the active.
I think those items would be interesting. If you're basically buying items for their actives, why do you need to actually have stats on them?
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United States37500 Posts
I am just going to play even more Support Fiddle this patch. Thanks Riot.
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On August 01 2013 05:27 NeoIllusions wrote:
I am just going to play even more Support Fiddle this patch. Thanks Riot.
Why not support Noct?
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I'd rather useful items build out of Kindlegems than Philos, personally. Though, this still goes back to Shurelia's being a pile of shit as far as cost-gains go. Can't I just buy two kindlegems? 
(This is also why I think Twin Shadows and Shard are garbage. Where's the Kindlegem?)
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On August 01 2013 05:27 NeoIllusions wrote:
I am just going to play even more Support Fiddle this patch. Thanks Riot.
but he got nerfed D:
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EPT
