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On July 11 2013 12:16 Badboyrune wrote:
I wonder if riot is ever going to come to the conclusion that unlimited wards is not a good idea.
As a support I would love it if spending all gold on wards and oracles was not the best way to assist the team. As long as you can buy infinite wards I don't see that happening though.
I think it was a major problem for a spectator sport when people were so bored of the endless posturing that they cheered for ward kills. But now the game is in a good spot and wards are our only line of defence against ganks in the lower tiers. I do however feel that they're a bit too strong and that limits my selection of junglers.
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On July 11 2013 12:26 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 12:16 Badboyrune wrote:
I wonder if riot is ever going to come to the conclusion that unlimited wards is not a good idea.
As a support I would love it if spending all gold on wards and oracles was not the best way to assist the team. As long as you can buy infinite wards I don't see that happening though. I think it was a major problem for a spectator sport when people were so bored of the endless posturing that they cheered for ward kills. But now the game is in a good spot and wards are our only line of defence against ganks in the lower tiers. I do however feel that they're a bit too strong and that limits my selection of junglers.
the whole cheering for ward kills was 100% due to that legendary WE v. CLG.eu game. If it wasn't for that game, no one would ever have cheered for ward kills ever.
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On July 11 2013 12:34 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 12:26 obesechicken13 wrote:On July 11 2013 12:16 Badboyrune wrote:
I wonder if riot is ever going to come to the conclusion that unlimited wards is not a good idea.
As a support I would love it if spending all gold on wards and oracles was not the best way to assist the team. As long as you can buy infinite wards I don't see that happening though. I think it was a major problem for a spectator sport when people were so bored of the endless posturing that they cheered for ward kills. But now the game is in a good spot and wards are our only line of defence against ganks in the lower tiers. I do however feel that they're a bit too strong and that limits my selection of junglers. the whole cheering for ward kills was 100% due to that legendary WE v. CLG.eu game. If it wasn't for that game, no one would ever have cheered for ward kills ever.
I was LOLing during that game. So funny.
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Oh my God that game.... was a mix of hilarious and just plain silly.
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I'm starting to realize that Aegis is a toxic item.
It is, hands down, the best item in the game. Provides the most stats to a team per gold, to the point where unless you're against an all AD team basically every team has to have one as fast as possible.
It is so gold efficient that if you want a tank item and the team doesn't have an Aegis yet you want to build an Aegis in basically every situation possible.
This is toxic for a couple reasons.
#1, it severely limits item choices for junglers and supports. Whichever role is getting the Aegis, they basically HAVE to have it as their first big item, no matter what character they're playing. But a lot of characters don't want to do this because Aegis is not a "fun" item, it just provides a lump of defensive stats. It has nothing in it that is neat or interesting, it's just super good.
#2, at lower ELO games, there are games where a team just doesn't buy an Aegis because their characters don't understand how ridiculously good it is, and end up straight up losing the game because of it. One item should not have that big an impact on the game. This is probably most visible in ARAM actually, which is luls.
Plz discuss.
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On July 11 2013 12:23 Hyren wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 12:19 onlywonderboy wrote:On July 11 2013 12:17 wei2coolman wrote:On July 11 2013 12:16 Badboyrune wrote:
I wonder if riot is ever going to come to the conclusion that unlimited wards is not a good idea.
As a support I would love it if spending all gold on wards and oracles was not the best way to assist the team. As long as you can buy infinite wards I don't see that happening though. Hmm; I like how it is now as support; I don't see them removing sightstone without adding something like HoG; cuz essentially sightstone is the new HoG. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/postmessage.php?quote=535&topic_id=420729It's kind of starting to become a problem in OGN, supports buying nothing but Ruby Sightstone and extra wards. Just seems like a lame way to play. Need better actives for Supports. Been noticing the same thing in LCS =/
That's because it's been proven in the Asian leagues to be all you need as a support. They make plays on the support's power(utility) rather than anything else. It's a bit crazy to think about, but considering the type of supports that Riot have been releasing. It's not that surprising is it? Just look at how much Thresh does himself!
Most supports rush ruby sightstone -> mobility boots, then buy oracles,wards, and vision wards as needed. By that time, the game is generally over.
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well, to be fair, it's totally viable on thresh because he gets so many free self-stats
free ap, free armor, free auto damage, all that on top of a plethora of strong skills
but yeah it's a lame situation. shows the strength of support heroes i guess though
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On July 11 2013 12:02 Phunkapotamus wrote:
Some pro team needs to base an entire teamcomp around Rengar(Rango)s QQ tower killing. I don't see why this hasn't happened yet.
Because jayce did it just as hard, from range!
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On July 11 2013 12:34 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 12:26 obesechicken13 wrote:On July 11 2013 12:16 Badboyrune wrote:
I wonder if riot is ever going to come to the conclusion that unlimited wards is not a good idea.
As a support I would love it if spending all gold on wards and oracles was not the best way to assist the team. As long as you can buy infinite wards I don't see that happening though. I think it was a major problem for a spectator sport when people were so bored of the endless posturing that they cheered for ward kills. But now the game is in a good spot and wards are our only line of defence against ganks in the lower tiers. I do however feel that they're a bit too strong and that limits my selection of junglers. the whole cheering for ward kills was 100% due to that legendary WE v. CLG.eu game. If it wasn't for that game, no one would ever have cheered for ward kills ever.
I'd say it was at least 50% due to Oracle's lasting forever. There were quite a few games that were just standoffs at baron significantly longer than what we see today.
WE vs CLGeu was just the straw.
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United States23745 Posts
On July 11 2013 12:39 Ketara wrote:
I'm starting to realize that Aegis is a toxic item.
It is, hands down, the best item in the game. Provides the most stats to a team per gold, to the point where unless you're against an all AD team basically every team has to have one as fast as possible.
It is so gold efficient that if you want a tank item and the team doesn't have an Aegis yet you want to build an Aegis in basically every situation possible.
This is toxic for a couple reasons.
#1, it severely limits item choices for junglers and supports. Whichever role is getting the Aegis, they basically HAVE to have it as their first big item, no matter what character they're playing. But a lot of characters don't want to do this because Aegis is not a "fun" item, it just provides a lump of defensive stats. It has nothing in it that is neat or interesting, it's just super good.
#2, at lower ELO games, there are games where a team just doesn't buy an Aegis because their characters don't understand how ridiculously good it is, and end up straight up losing the game because of it. One item should not have that big an impact on the game. This is probably most visible in ARAM actually, which is luls.
Plz discuss.
Not much to discuss, your points are pretty true. Idk if I'd classify it as "toxic" but it's really strong but boring. I mean I prefer Junglers rushing Aegis instead of 2 GP10s, Moba boots, and Oracles (I guess that's pretty much what supports do these days though.)
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On July 11 2013 12:50 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 12:34 Ryuu314 wrote:On July 11 2013 12:26 obesechicken13 wrote:On July 11 2013 12:16 Badboyrune wrote:
I wonder if riot is ever going to come to the conclusion that unlimited wards is not a good idea.
As a support I would love it if spending all gold on wards and oracles was not the best way to assist the team. As long as you can buy infinite wards I don't see that happening though. I think it was a major problem for a spectator sport when people were so bored of the endless posturing that they cheered for ward kills. But now the game is in a good spot and wards are our only line of defence against ganks in the lower tiers. I do however feel that they're a bit too strong and that limits my selection of junglers. the whole cheering for ward kills was 100% due to that legendary WE v. CLG.eu game. If it wasn't for that game, no one would ever have cheered for ward kills ever. I'd say it was at least 50% due to Oracle's lasting forever. There were quite a few games that were just standoffs at baron significantly longer than what we see today.
I disagree. We had games that were long baron standoffs with unlimited duration oracles way before then and yet no one cheered for ward kills.
People cheered for ward kills because it was literally the only thing happening that game and the circumstances around it were ridiculous. Every ward kill cheer thereafter was a reference to that game.On July 11 2013 12:39 Ketara wrote:Aegis is teh sux0rs
Aegis is very strong, sure, but that doesn't make it toxic.
I mean, just because an item is forced to be bought like 90% of the games doesn't make it toxic.
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On July 11 2013 12:44 gtrsrs wrote:
well, to be fair, it's totally viable on thresh because he gets so many free self-stats
free ap, free armor, free auto damage, all that on top of a plethora of strong skills
but yeah it's a lame situation. shows the strength of support heroes i guess though
Probably more the strength of vision. Its not like supports are taking over everywhere.
The argument cuts both ways from the same situation. Data: Supports are only buying vision items.
Hypothesis 1: Support heros are strong. They can impact fights without farm.
Hypothesis 2: Support heros are weak. They are not worth giving farm to.
Reality ??
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On July 11 2013 12:39 Ketara wrote:#2, at lower ELO games, there are games where a team just doesn't buy an Aegis because their characters don't understand how ridiculously good it is, and end up straight up losing the game because of it. One item should not have that big an impact on the game. This is probably most visible in ARAM actually, which is luls.
If bulwark causes people to realize that sometimes you have to suck things up and take one for the team, then that is a good thing. Screw one bulwark, two is even better. Stack dem auras til the cows come home.
Your argument would have made a lot more sense in season 2 when it aegis was a mid-tier dead end item someone (or two someones for aura stacking) had to get because the aura was so good, but your own power suffered significantly for getting it (after a point). You could argue locket is just as bad, but its even cheaper. I don't really see the problem with having items that are extremely strong in teamfights while sacrificing personal strength.
Also people itemizing poorly is hardly limited to bulwark. For every team I've seen skip bulwark when it matters, I've seen at least 20 ADCs hold off on getting a vamp scepter until 40 minutes into the game against high burst teams. Both can easily cost a winnable game.
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On July 11 2013 12:50 onlywonderboy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 12:39 Ketara wrote:
I'm starting to realize that Aegis is a toxic item.
It is, hands down, the best item in the game. Provides the most stats to a team per gold, to the point where unless you're against an all AD team basically every team has to have one as fast as possible.
It is so gold efficient that if you want a tank item and the team doesn't have an Aegis yet you want to build an Aegis in basically every situation possible.
This is toxic for a couple reasons.
#1, it severely limits item choices for junglers and supports. Whichever role is getting the Aegis, they basically HAVE to have it as their first big item, no matter what character they're playing. But a lot of characters don't want to do this because Aegis is not a "fun" item, it just provides a lump of defensive stats. It has nothing in it that is neat or interesting, it's just super good.
#2, at lower ELO games, there are games where a team just doesn't buy an Aegis because their characters don't understand how ridiculously good it is, and end up straight up losing the game because of it. One item should not have that big an impact on the game. This is probably most visible in ARAM actually, which is luls.
Plz discuss. Not much to discuss, your points are pretty true. Idk if I'd classify it as "toxic" but it's really strong but boring. I mean I prefer Junglers rushing Aegis instead of 2 GP10s, Moba boots, and Oracles (I guess that's pretty much what supports do these days though.)
Toxic because as an item it limits gameplay options.
The entire point of having items in the game is that there is a choice between what items you want to build. The goal should be that for any given game, the items you build and almost more importantly the order in which you build them is open to choice and strategic thinking.
Aegis invalidates this by being SO good that you MUST get it as your first item for whichever role is going to get it. This is exacerbated by it usually going to the roles with the least gold, giving them even less room for choice in item builds than they had before.
Aegis doesn't add anything to the game. It doesn't make the game more interesting. It is an incredibly boring item that not only doesn't add to gameplay options, it limits them. It's just way too good.
Deathcap and Infinity Edge are similar imo, but typically go to the characters with the most gold rather than the least, so they aren't as big of a deal.
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On July 11 2013 12:48 sylverfyre wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 12:02 Phunkapotamus wrote:
Some pro team needs to base an entire teamcomp around Rengar(Rango)s QQ tower killing. I don't see why this hasn't happened yet. Because jayce did it just as hard, from range!
People already did that before they nerfed AP rengar. He was basically a split pushing monster that destroyed minion waves AND towers.
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On July 11 2013 12:59 zer0das wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 12:39 Ketara wrote:#2, at lower ELO games, there are games where a team just doesn't buy an Aegis because their characters don't understand how ridiculously good it is, and end up straight up losing the game because of it. One item should not have that big an impact on the game. This is probably most visible in ARAM actually, which is luls. If bulwark causes people to realize that sometimes you have to suck things up and take one for the team, then that is a good thing. Screw one bulwark, two is even better. Stack dem auras til the cows come home. Your argument would have made a lot more sense in season 2 when it aegis was a mid-tier dead end item someone (or two someones for aura stacking) had to get because the aura was so good, but your own power suffered significantly for getting it (after a point). You could argue locket is just as bad, but its even cheaper. I don't really see the problem with having items that are extremely strong in teamfights while sacrificing personal strength. Also people itemizing poorly is hardly limited to bulwark. For every team I've seen skip bulwark when it matters, I've seen at least 20 ADCs hold off on getting a vamp scepter until 40 minutes into the game against high burst teams. Both can easily cost a winnable game.
Well, to be fair, a vamp scepter isn't gonna save an AD against a high burst team. You gonna die anyway if they get on you.
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High burst doesn't mean you die outright. If you're not dying and continuously getting away with a few bars of health, the vamp scepter will help you stay in a fight and kill people once all their stuff is on cooldown. If you have 0 vamp you walk away from the fight while everyone else on your team dies. Also makes you super vulnerable to any sort of poke.
Example: AP Yi casts alpha strike once. Now you have to considering backing because you can't vamp back off of wolves or wraithes and one more alpha strike and you're dangerously low.
Sell your stupid doran's blade and dump 610 gold on something useful. It's that simple. Vamp scepter should not be your 6th item. -_-
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On July 11 2013 12:59 zer0das wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 12:39 Ketara wrote:#2, at lower ELO games, there are games where a team just doesn't buy an Aegis because their characters don't understand how ridiculously good it is, and end up straight up losing the game because of it. One item should not have that big an impact on the game. This is probably most visible in ARAM actually, which is luls. If bulwark causes people to realize that sometimes you have to suck things up and take one for the team, then that is a good thing. Screw one bulwark, two is even better. Stack dem auras til the cows come home. Your argument would have made a lot more sense in season 2 when it aegis was a mid-tier dead end item someone (or two someones for aura stacking) had to get because the aura was so good, but your own power suffered significantly for getting it (after a point). You could argue locket is just as bad, but its even cheaper. I don't really see the problem with having items that are extremely strong in teamfights while sacrificing personal strength. Also people itemizing poorly is hardly limited to bulwark. For every team I've seen skip bulwark when it matters, I've seen at least 20 ADCs hold off on getting a vamp scepter until 40 minutes into the game against high burst teams. Both can easily cost a winnable game.
I didn't know this was even a thing. Is the idea to almost die to one assasin, then lifesteal enough so that you are safe against another round of burst?
I don't think any junglers I've played with get aegis first. They all get at least a madreds razor first and more likely at least a spirit stone. It can be argued that sprit items don't give much itemization choice either and just made a jungle tax. "get this item or else you will have a hard time clearing the jungle or making use of your starting items."
It can also be argued that making LoL a 5 player game instead of a 4 player one led to the gold starved support role. But that's the hole we're in now and some (not me) people like supporting. We should just make the best of it. Aegis isn't toxic, we just need other alternatives.
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Dear god running a team is hard.
Anybody want to sub for a ranked 5's team(top lane), message me here or ingame on NA server. Preferably plat+, although high gold should be alright.
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On July 11 2013 13:19 Amui wrote:
Dear god running a team is hard.
Anybody want to sub for a ranked 5's team(top lane), message me here or ingame on NA server. Preferably plat+, although high gold should be alright.
Y U kick me off ur team bro
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EPT
