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[Patch 3.09: Spirit Guard Udyr Patch] General Discussion -…

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Numy
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
South Africa35471 Posts
July 23 2013 21:13 GMT
#4561
It goes both ways. Some people might be more defensive with people they know and some might be less. Can't really claim either case as the only way people behave.
red_
Profile Joined May 2010
United States8474 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-07-23 21:18:17
July 23 2013 21:13 GMT
#4562
On July 24 2013 06:11 Requizen wrote:
I know plenty of people who rage and bitch when they play with folks they know, there's no precedent saying you play better with friends/teammates.


I don't think Yango is trying to say any 1 way is best for n=1. He's basically saying right now the only real avenue is soloQ though, so if that doesn't work for you you're fucked if you are the group that does really function best playing with people you know.

FWIW I abhor soloQ and it's not because I have a 'can't improve' mindset, I just hate playing a multiplayer game alone. I pretty much accept every duoQ offer, but for the most part that means I spam normals with people(although in the case of League I really don't care about improving right now because I 100% am just playing for funsies, but people who don't post on this forum anymore can attest to the idea that I am capable of giving a shit in a serious 5s/ranked 5s scenario beyond what my soloQ rating shows).
How did the experience of working at Mr Burns' Nuclear Plant influence Homer's composition of the Iliad and Odyssey?
wei2coolman
Profile Joined November 2010
United States60033 Posts
July 23 2013 21:14 GMT
#4563
On July 24 2013 06:12 PrinceXizor wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 24 2013 06:11 Requizen wrote:
I know plenty of people who rage and bitch when they play with folks they know, there's no precedent saying you play better with friends/teammates.

but you are held accountable for what you say to your friends/teammates. not so randoms.

Not really; friends give a lot of leeway because you can leverage friendship. Terribly skeptical way to look at it; but that's generally why you're far more blunt with close friends than you are with strangers.
liftlift > tsm
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
July 23 2013 21:15 GMT
#4564
On July 24 2013 06:08 wei2coolman wrote:
No, but the player isn't going to improve either way. Remember this whole argument/debate originated from the idea 'oh solo queue ain't helping me'. Which is wrong. Once you've accepted that solo queue can improve you as a player, then that's when you can improve in a 5's setting as well. No point in dragging 4 other people down with you if you can't prove to be a player with right mentality.

The argument is that there's no alternative avenue for someone who doesn't enjoy the stress/rage/frustration of solo queue to really play the game with a mind toward improving because the community as a whole is so obsessed with solo queue.

Obviously it won't necessarily be the *best* way to improve. But this is a game, ffs. We're not looking for the *best* way to improve because we're not aiming to be a pro player--we're aiming for the one that's the most fun, and for a lot of people, solo queue is pretty clearly not the most fun.
Moderator
PrinceXizor
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States17713 Posts
July 23 2013 21:15 GMT
#4565
On July 24 2013 06:14 wei2coolman wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 24 2013 06:12 PrinceXizor wrote:
On July 24 2013 06:11 Requizen wrote:
I know plenty of people who rage and bitch when they play with folks they know, there's no precedent saying you play better with friends/teammates.

but you are held accountable for what you say to your friends/teammates. not so randoms.

Not really; friends give a lot of leeway because you can leverage friendship. Terribly skeptical way to look at it; but that's generally why you're far more blunt with close friends than you are with strangers.

so if your friend calls you out on being a dick, you rage harder at him? or you apologize and move on? or you walk away and take a break and come back being fine? because solo queue ONLY fosters the first one.
wei2coolman
Profile Joined November 2010
United States60033 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-07-23 21:18:02
July 23 2013 21:16 GMT
#4566
On July 24 2013 06:15 TheYango wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 24 2013 06:08 wei2coolman wrote:
No, but the player isn't going to improve either way. Remember this whole argument/debate originated from the idea 'oh solo queue ain't helping me'. Which is wrong. Once you've accepted that solo queue can improve you as a player, then that's when you can improve in a 5's setting as well. No point in dragging 4 other people down with you if you can't prove to be a player with right mentality.

The argument is that there's no alternative avenue for someone who doesn't enjoy the stress/rage/frustration of solo queue to really play the game with a mind toward improving because the community as a whole is so obsessed with solo queue.

Obviously it won't necessarily be the *best* way to improve. But this is a game, ffs. We're not looking for the *best* way to improve because we're not aiming to be a pro player--we're aiming for the one that's the most fun, and for a lot of people, solo queue is pretty clearly not the most fun.

If you have the mindset that solo queue is causing you stress/rage/frustration, then you have the wrong solo queue mentality is what I'm saying.
On July 24 2013 06:15 PrinceXizor wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 24 2013 06:14 wei2coolman wrote:
On July 24 2013 06:12 PrinceXizor wrote:
On July 24 2013 06:11 Requizen wrote:
I know plenty of people who rage and bitch when they play with folks they know, there's no precedent saying you play better with friends/teammates.

but you are held accountable for what you say to your friends/teammates. not so randoms.

Not really; friends give a lot of leeway because you can leverage friendship. Terribly skeptical way to look at it; but that's generally why you're far more blunt with close friends than you are with strangers.

so if your friend calls you out on being a dick, you rage harder at him? or you apologize and move on? or you walk away and take a break and come back being fine? because solo queue ONLY fosters the first one.

It's a two way street; you can also call your friend a dick, and say he sucks as well.
If you have that kind of mentality in solo queue, to blame others, nothing is going to change in a "friend environment".
liftlift > tsm
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
July 23 2013 21:18 GMT
#4567
The community has essentially fostered an attitude that says "if you want to improve seriously you have to eat the shit and play solo queue" which is really discouraging to a lot of people.
Moderator
Slusher
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States19143 Posts
July 23 2013 21:18 GMT
#4568
is anyone actually arguing that doing 100% of one and 0% of the other is right in all situations for all people, because if they are that's retarded.

I honestly don't even think you guys are arguing about anything anymore
Carrilord has arrived.
PrinceXizor
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States17713 Posts
July 23 2013 21:20 GMT
#4569
On July 24 2013 06:16 wei2coolman wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 24 2013 06:15 TheYango wrote:
On July 24 2013 06:08 wei2coolman wrote:
No, but the player isn't going to improve either way. Remember this whole argument/debate originated from the idea 'oh solo queue ain't helping me'. Which is wrong. Once you've accepted that solo queue can improve you as a player, then that's when you can improve in a 5's setting as well. No point in dragging 4 other people down with you if you can't prove to be a player with right mentality.

The argument is that there's no alternative avenue for someone who doesn't enjoy the stress/rage/frustration of solo queue to really play the game with a mind toward improving because the community as a whole is so obsessed with solo queue.

Obviously it won't necessarily be the *best* way to improve. But this is a game, ffs. We're not looking for the *best* way to improve because we're not aiming to be a pro player--we're aiming for the one that's the most fun, and for a lot of people, solo queue is pretty clearly not the most fun.

If you have the mindset that solo queue is causing you stress/rage/frustration, then you have the wrong solo queue mentality is what I'm saying.
Show nested quote +
On July 24 2013 06:15 PrinceXizor wrote:
On July 24 2013 06:14 wei2coolman wrote:
On July 24 2013 06:12 PrinceXizor wrote:
On July 24 2013 06:11 Requizen wrote:
I know plenty of people who rage and bitch when they play with folks they know, there's no precedent saying you play better with friends/teammates.

but you are held accountable for what you say to your friends/teammates. not so randoms.

Not really; friends give a lot of leeway because you can leverage friendship. Terribly skeptical way to look at it; but that's generally why you're far more blunt with close friends than you are with strangers.

so if your friend calls you out on being a dick, you rage harder at him? or you apologize and move on? or you walk away and take a break and come back being fine? because solo queue ONLY fosters the first one.

It's a two way street; you can also call your friend a dick, and say he sucks as well.
If you have that kind of mentality in solo queue, to blame others, nothing is going to change in a "friend environment".

no because in solo queue you have two options: admit you are wrong and apologize, or rage back. being with friends gives you a third option. so the existence of the third option changes the dynamic dramatically. maybe not for everyone, but it does change it. Your stance that solo queue is the only way to improve at a low level is just terrible. your stance that people who act like dicks in solo queue ALL act like dicks around their friends too is terrible.
red_
Profile Joined May 2010
United States8474 Posts
July 23 2013 21:20 GMT
#4570
On July 24 2013 06:16 wei2coolman wrote:

It's a two way street; you can also call your friend a dick, and say he sucks as well.
If you have that kind of mentality in solo queue, to blame others, nothing is going to change in a "friend environment".


That's not even necessarily true either; I don't know why you're expecting a n=1 burden for one side but throw out tons of generalizations yourself.
How did the experience of working at Mr Burns' Nuclear Plant influence Homer's composition of the Iliad and Odyssey?
Requizen
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States33802 Posts
July 23 2013 21:20 GMT
#4571
On July 24 2013 06:18 Slusher wrote:
is anyone actually arguing that doing 100% of one and 0% of the other is right in all situations for all people, because if they are that's retarded.

I honestly don't even think you guys are arguing about anything anymore

I don't think so either.

I think I might get a cat, thoughts?
It's your boy Guzma!
PrinceXizor
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States17713 Posts
July 23 2013 21:21 GMT
#4572
On July 24 2013 06:20 Requizen wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 24 2013 06:18 Slusher wrote:
is anyone actually arguing that doing 100% of one and 0% of the other is right in all situations for all people, because if they are that's retarded.

I honestly don't even think you guys are arguing about anything anymore

I don't think so either.

I think I might get a cat, thoughts?

get a grey one.
nafta
Profile Joined August 2010
Bulgaria18893 Posts
July 23 2013 21:21 GMT
#4573
Dogs are better.
kainzero
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States5211 Posts
July 23 2013 21:22 GMT
#4574
On July 24 2013 05:57 wei2coolman wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 24 2013 05:55 PrinceXizor wrote:
On July 24 2013 05:54 wei2coolman wrote:
On July 24 2013 05:48 kainzero wrote:
On July 24 2013 05:15 Feartheguru wrote:
On July 24 2013 05:12 kainzero wrote:
On July 24 2013 04:52 TheYango wrote:
On July 24 2013 04:44 kainzero wrote:
If blind normals in 3/4 stacks was your preferred play mode and you were actually quite good at it, and then you wanted to join a competitive team, you would get rebuffed because you don't have a good solo q rating. Hell, that's my preferred play mode and sometimes I can't argue with certain people about strategy because my solo Q rank is too low and they won't accept any other credential besides that.

I mean that's sort of a weird example because people wouldn't scout pro players from random normal stacks in DotA either. But the point is that there's a judgment attached to someone's solo queue rating, and so there's a pressure for people to play solo queue when they actually enjoy those stacks more.

You can say "if you don't like solo queue, don't play it" and in a sense that's true, but at the same time there are *definitely* people who feel pressured to play solo queue (or have a particular rating to prove themselves) when they don't enjoy it.

Well, when I said "competitive team," I didn't want to limit it to pro teams.

There are plenty of posts on PvP and some here where they're looking to build a team to compete in small cups or play arranged 5s, and almost all of them have plat/diamond solo Q minimum.

I can understand it being a filter if they're being flooded with requests and they need a quick way to determine unskilled players vs skilled players, but the reality is that they get like 3 or 4 silver/gold players that are mildly interested but ashamed of their rank, and instead they just decide to not form their team. I think that's a huge impediment to getting 5s off the ground.


The difference between silver and plat solo queue is cataclysmic, nevermind diamond, why form a team just to get facerolled in cups, better to do your own thing.

The two times I've encountered pro players in normals with my 5 stack, we rolled them. I've also successfully laned against Plats in normals. (Them Diamonds keep destroying me though, in the rare time that I do get a solo lane and lane against one of them.) I've also lost to mid-high Silvers, so no, this isn't a brag post.

It is normals, but at the same time, because I play normals over ranked, all I have to show for solo Q is my Silver 3. How do you evaluate my skills as a player because I prefer normals? How do you know that we're going to get facerolled every single time? I don't know. I just think that there are certain players that want to try ranked 5s, try play competitively, try to improve as a team, but they're automatically being blocked because of their solo Q ability. And at the top, you have groups of 4 diamond players who won't play cups because they can't find that last diamond player which further stunts the competitive scene.


Lets look at this realistically, from everyone else's point of view. Lets say you're diamond 1; looking to recruit some promising players. You're not expecting to get to LCS right away, but you just want to create a fairly cohesive team with around equal strengths. Now you've picked up 3 other players, and only have one slot left. You going to pick the Silver 3 guy? or the Plat 2 dude?

Also; I play a fuck ton of normals with my diamond friends, their mentality of how they approach normals is completely different than how they approach ranked; so don't expect that you're playing against their 100%.

You pick the dude who works best for your team. not the plat 2 dude by default.

Chances are the Plat 2 dude is going to work out better for you, 80% of the time.

Those statistics.
How many times has that story actually come to pass? I can think of a billion plot twists. Maybe Silver 3 is being vouched for by a top teammate. Maybe Plat 2 is a known rager. Maybe Plat 2 hasn't played in months. Maybe Silver 3 was 1800 ELO last season and plays lots of normals now and his friend smurfed his ranked so he can play with other ranked. Whatever the reason, cases like that are never clear cut so there is really no point in isolating a situation that doesn't happen.

Again, I'm not discounting solo Q and calling it useless, but that some people choose to play the games in other ways and that they can also grow in skill that isn't measured in solo Q ranking. The problem is that solo Q is seen as the only evaluator of skill right now. It's not a bad evaluator, it's certainly not the greatest either, but the problem is that it's the only one.
Requizen
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States33802 Posts
July 23 2013 21:22 GMT
#4575
On July 24 2013 06:21 nafta wrote:
Dogs are better.

I want a dog, but my friend is selling his cat because he can't have it in his apartment. Otherwise I'm getting a Corgi and naming it Ein.
It's your boy Guzma!
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
July 23 2013 21:24 GMT
#4576
People should just play what's most fun for them, that's really all there is to it. The problem which I've repeatedly stated is that there's a stigma against wanting to improve through avenues other than solo queue (which is a legitimate desire because solo queue is frustrating). There doesn't need to be one.
Moderator
wei2coolman
Profile Joined November 2010
United States60033 Posts
July 23 2013 21:24 GMT
#4577
On July 24 2013 06:20 Requizen wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 24 2013 06:18 Slusher wrote:
is anyone actually arguing that doing 100% of one and 0% of the other is right in all situations for all people, because if they are that's retarded.

I honestly don't even think you guys are arguing about anything anymore

I don't think so either.

I think I might get a cat, thoughts?

If you have roommates; don't get a pet.
If by yourself; knock yourself out.
Currently living with a roommate who does a shit job taking care of her dogs; fucking making it hell for me. Chew'd/slobbered all over my shoes earlier today.
liftlift > tsm
PrinceXizor
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States17713 Posts
July 23 2013 21:26 GMT
#4578
On July 24 2013 06:22 kainzero wrote:

Those statistics.
How many times has that story actually come to pass? I can think of a billion plot twists. Maybe Silver 3 is being vouched for by a top teammate. Maybe Plat 2 is a known rager. Maybe Plat 2 hasn't played in months. Maybe Silver 3 was 1800 ELO last season and plays lots of normals now and his friend smurfed his ranked so he can play with other ranked. Whatever the reason, cases like that are never clear cut so there is really no point in isolating a situation that doesn't happen.

Again, I'm not discounting solo Q and calling it useless, but that some people choose to play the games in other ways and that they can also grow in skill that isn't measured in solo Q ranking. The problem is that solo Q is seen as the only evaluator of skill right now. It's not a bad evaluator, it's certainly not the greatest either, but the problem is that it's the only one.

More importantly, what if the plat 2 dude is a turtling AD player and you are a team of faster push oriented players which fits the silver 3 support guys style more, AND you are looking for a support player. the silver 3 guy is the better choice its much easier to improve a guys generic skill at a game than it is to have the other guy unlearn his style and adapt yours. most of the time the second option just fails.
wei2coolman
Profile Joined November 2010
United States60033 Posts
July 23 2013 21:27 GMT
#4579
On July 24 2013 06:26 PrinceXizor wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 24 2013 06:22 kainzero wrote:

Those statistics.
How many times has that story actually come to pass? I can think of a billion plot twists. Maybe Silver 3 is being vouched for by a top teammate. Maybe Plat 2 is a known rager. Maybe Plat 2 hasn't played in months. Maybe Silver 3 was 1800 ELO last season and plays lots of normals now and his friend smurfed his ranked so he can play with other ranked. Whatever the reason, cases like that are never clear cut so there is really no point in isolating a situation that doesn't happen.

Again, I'm not discounting solo Q and calling it useless, but that some people choose to play the games in other ways and that they can also grow in skill that isn't measured in solo Q ranking. The problem is that solo Q is seen as the only evaluator of skill right now. It's not a bad evaluator, it's certainly not the greatest either, but the problem is that it's the only one.

More importantly, what if the plat 2 dude is a turtling AD player and you are a team of faster push oriented players which fits the silver 3 support guys style more, AND you are looking for a support player. the silver 3 guy is the better choice its much easier to improve a guys generic skill at a game than it is to have the other guy unlearn his style and adapt yours. most of the time the second option just fails.

Cop; summer split.
liftlift > tsm
nafta
Profile Joined August 2010
Bulgaria18893 Posts
July 23 2013 21:27 GMT
#4580
You could always get a guinea pig if you have roommates.You'd make artosis proud.
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