|
United States47024 Posts
On July 24 2013 05:38 wei2coolman wrote:
With that being said; no one is debating 5's being the "better way" to practice. But realistically, you'll have a tough time finding 4 other like minded guys, and arranging ranked 5's to be played, over just individually getting much better through solo queue.
Ofc it's going to be hard to jump from 1-2 people to 5. That's not how this works.
You play games with your 1-2 people. You meet people in games and make friends. Some of those people are good enough/have the same mindset as you. Your small group grows until you've got 5, and then you make the jump into ranked 5s.
r.Evo who used to play LoL and post on this forum did exactly this in DotA. He was playing 2-stacks that grew into a 3-stack etc. until he got a group of similarly skilled players that are consistently playing ranked team matchmaking now.
It's not really a hard concept, except that middle part of growing your group to 3/4 people sort of doesn't happen when people are playing solo queue and normals are perceived as "casual" so you never get to play with this growing stack together.
|
On July 24 2013 05:47 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 05:44 TheYango wrote:On July 24 2013 05:30 wei2coolman wrote:
I wonder if you seriously think that's how teams at low elo works. You don't think Navi and I had meaningful discussion about the game when we were both scrubs who couldn't break 1400 in solo queue? It's actually pretty funny because when Navi had his short stint on FXO for a couple months it was painfully clear that he had more experience playing 5s than anyone else on the team, even though they might not have been "high-level" 5s. Having experience ins 5's will always be limited by mechanical ability. I guess it's a matter of the whole, "teach teamplayer how to be better as an individual player" or "teach strong individual player how to be teamplayer". I feel potential of any player will always be limited by his ability to execute the plan.
I think that limit is far lower than you think it is. Having watched my friends play in bronze matches, there are terrible players, and players who make terrible decisions. the second half doesn't easily improve without someone telling you and explaining things to you, the first fixes itself when you become familiar with the game.
|
On July 24 2013 05:48 kainzero wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 05:15 Feartheguru wrote:On July 24 2013 05:12 kainzero wrote:On July 24 2013 04:52 TheYango wrote:On July 24 2013 04:44 kainzero wrote:
If blind normals in 3/4 stacks was your preferred play mode and you were actually quite good at it, and then you wanted to join a competitive team, you would get rebuffed because you don't have a good solo q rating. Hell, that's my preferred play mode and sometimes I can't argue with certain people about strategy because my solo Q rank is too low and they won't accept any other credential besides that. I mean that's sort of a weird example because people wouldn't scout pro players from random normal stacks in DotA either. But the point is that there's a judgment attached to someone's solo queue rating, and so there's a pressure for people to play solo queue when they actually enjoy those stacks more. You can say "if you don't like solo queue, don't play it" and in a sense that's true, but at the same time there are *definitely* people who feel pressured to play solo queue (or have a particular rating to prove themselves) when they don't enjoy it. Well, when I said "competitive team," I didn't want to limit it to pro teams. There are plenty of posts on PvP and some here where they're looking to build a team to compete in small cups or play arranged 5s, and almost all of them have plat/diamond solo Q minimum. I can understand it being a filter if they're being flooded with requests and they need a quick way to determine unskilled players vs skilled players, but the reality is that they get like 3 or 4 silver/gold players that are mildly interested but ashamed of their rank, and instead they just decide to not form their team. I think that's a huge impediment to getting 5s off the ground. The difference between silver and plat solo queue is cataclysmic, nevermind diamond, why form a team just to get facerolled in cups, better to do your own thing. The two times I've encountered pro players in normals with my 5 stack, we rolled them. I've also successfully laned against Plats in normals. (Them Diamonds keep destroying me though, in the rare time that I do get a solo lane and lane against one of them.) I've also lost to mid-high Silvers, so no, this isn't a brag post. It is normals, but at the same time, because I play normals over ranked, all I have to show for solo Q is my Silver 3. How do you evaluate my skills as a player because I prefer normals? How do you know that we're going to get facerolled every single time? I don't know. I just think that there are certain players that want to try ranked 5s, try play competitively, try to improve as a team, but they're automatically being blocked because of their solo Q ability. And at the top, you have groups of 4 diamond players who won't play cups because they can't find that last diamond player which further stunts the competitive scene.
Lets look at this realistically, from everyone else's point of view. Lets say you're diamond 1; looking to recruit some promising players. You're not expecting to get to LCS right away, but you just want to create a fairly cohesive team with around equal strengths. Now you've picked up 3 other players, and only have one slot left. You going to pick the Silver 3 guy? or the Plat 2 dude?
Also; I play a fuck ton of normals with my diamond friends, their mentality of how they approach normals is completely different than how they approach ranked; so don't expect that you're playing against their 100%.
|
Czech Republic11293 Posts
I can't emphasise how much playing ranked5s retarded my growth as a player
just people with wrong opinions forcing wrong playstyles on you giving you wrong advice picking wrong champions making wrong calls and blaming their lack of success on irrelevant small failures.
Text above describes the most successful team I've been in so far.
it took me like 2 weeks of really really painful soloQ just to regain the knowledge I had and get back to the point where I was before I started playing with them.
|
On July 24 2013 05:54 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 05:48 kainzero wrote:On July 24 2013 05:15 Feartheguru wrote:On July 24 2013 05:12 kainzero wrote:On July 24 2013 04:52 TheYango wrote:On July 24 2013 04:44 kainzero wrote:
If blind normals in 3/4 stacks was your preferred play mode and you were actually quite good at it, and then you wanted to join a competitive team, you would get rebuffed because you don't have a good solo q rating. Hell, that's my preferred play mode and sometimes I can't argue with certain people about strategy because my solo Q rank is too low and they won't accept any other credential besides that. I mean that's sort of a weird example because people wouldn't scout pro players from random normal stacks in DotA either. But the point is that there's a judgment attached to someone's solo queue rating, and so there's a pressure for people to play solo queue when they actually enjoy those stacks more. You can say "if you don't like solo queue, don't play it" and in a sense that's true, but at the same time there are *definitely* people who feel pressured to play solo queue (or have a particular rating to prove themselves) when they don't enjoy it. Well, when I said "competitive team," I didn't want to limit it to pro teams. There are plenty of posts on PvP and some here where they're looking to build a team to compete in small cups or play arranged 5s, and almost all of them have plat/diamond solo Q minimum. I can understand it being a filter if they're being flooded with requests and they need a quick way to determine unskilled players vs skilled players, but the reality is that they get like 3 or 4 silver/gold players that are mildly interested but ashamed of their rank, and instead they just decide to not form their team. I think that's a huge impediment to getting 5s off the ground. The difference between silver and plat solo queue is cataclysmic, nevermind diamond, why form a team just to get facerolled in cups, better to do your own thing. The two times I've encountered pro players in normals with my 5 stack, we rolled them. I've also successfully laned against Plats in normals. (Them Diamonds keep destroying me though, in the rare time that I do get a solo lane and lane against one of them.) I've also lost to mid-high Silvers, so no, this isn't a brag post. It is normals, but at the same time, because I play normals over ranked, all I have to show for solo Q is my Silver 3. How do you evaluate my skills as a player because I prefer normals? How do you know that we're going to get facerolled every single time? I don't know. I just think that there are certain players that want to try ranked 5s, try play competitively, try to improve as a team, but they're automatically being blocked because of their solo Q ability. And at the top, you have groups of 4 diamond players who won't play cups because they can't find that last diamond player which further stunts the competitive scene. Lets look at this realistically, from everyone else's point of view. Lets say you're diamond 1; looking to recruit some promising players. You're not expecting to get to LCS right away, but you just want to create a fairly cohesive team with around equal strengths. Now you've picked up 3 other players, and only have one slot left. You going to pick the Silver 3 guy? or the Plat 2 dude? Also; I play a fuck ton of normals with my diamond friends, their mentality of how they approach normals is completely different than how they approach ranked; so don't expect that you're playing against their 100%.
You pick the dude who works best for your team. not the plat 2 dude by default.
|
On July 24 2013 05:55 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 05:54 wei2coolman wrote:On July 24 2013 05:48 kainzero wrote:On July 24 2013 05:15 Feartheguru wrote:On July 24 2013 05:12 kainzero wrote:On July 24 2013 04:52 TheYango wrote:On July 24 2013 04:44 kainzero wrote:
If blind normals in 3/4 stacks was your preferred play mode and you were actually quite good at it, and then you wanted to join a competitive team, you would get rebuffed because you don't have a good solo q rating. Hell, that's my preferred play mode and sometimes I can't argue with certain people about strategy because my solo Q rank is too low and they won't accept any other credential besides that. I mean that's sort of a weird example because people wouldn't scout pro players from random normal stacks in DotA either. But the point is that there's a judgment attached to someone's solo queue rating, and so there's a pressure for people to play solo queue when they actually enjoy those stacks more. You can say "if you don't like solo queue, don't play it" and in a sense that's true, but at the same time there are *definitely* people who feel pressured to play solo queue (or have a particular rating to prove themselves) when they don't enjoy it. Well, when I said "competitive team," I didn't want to limit it to pro teams. There are plenty of posts on PvP and some here where they're looking to build a team to compete in small cups or play arranged 5s, and almost all of them have plat/diamond solo Q minimum. I can understand it being a filter if they're being flooded with requests and they need a quick way to determine unskilled players vs skilled players, but the reality is that they get like 3 or 4 silver/gold players that are mildly interested but ashamed of their rank, and instead they just decide to not form their team. I think that's a huge impediment to getting 5s off the ground. The difference between silver and plat solo queue is cataclysmic, nevermind diamond, why form a team just to get facerolled in cups, better to do your own thing. The two times I've encountered pro players in normals with my 5 stack, we rolled them. I've also successfully laned against Plats in normals. (Them Diamonds keep destroying me though, in the rare time that I do get a solo lane and lane against one of them.) I've also lost to mid-high Silvers, so no, this isn't a brag post. It is normals, but at the same time, because I play normals over ranked, all I have to show for solo Q is my Silver 3. How do you evaluate my skills as a player because I prefer normals? How do you know that we're going to get facerolled every single time? I don't know. I just think that there are certain players that want to try ranked 5s, try play competitively, try to improve as a team, but they're automatically being blocked because of their solo Q ability. And at the top, you have groups of 4 diamond players who won't play cups because they can't find that last diamond player which further stunts the competitive scene. Lets look at this realistically, from everyone else's point of view. Lets say you're diamond 1; looking to recruit some promising players. You're not expecting to get to LCS right away, but you just want to create a fairly cohesive team with around equal strengths. Now you've picked up 3 other players, and only have one slot left. You going to pick the Silver 3 guy? or the Plat 2 dude? Also; I play a fuck ton of normals with my diamond friends, their mentality of how they approach normals is completely different than how they approach ranked; so don't expect that you're playing against their 100%. You pick the dude who works best for your team. not the plat 2 dude by default.
Chances are the Plat 2 dude is going to work out better for you, 80% of the time.
On July 24 2013 05:54 Scip wrote:
I can't emphasise how much playing ranked5s retarded my growth as a player
just people with wrong opinions forcing wrong playstyles on you giving you wrong advice picking wrong champions making wrong calls and blaming their lack of success on irrelevant small failures.
Text above describes the most successful team I've been in so far.
it took me like 2 weeks of really really painful soloQ just to regain the knowledge I had and get back to the point where I was before I started playing with them.
THIS. So much.
|
Why is it that premades that call bot are always the worst on the team and always do terribly.
|
United States47024 Posts
On July 24 2013 05:54 Scip wrote:
I can't emphasise how much playing ranked5s retarded my growth as a player
just people with wrong opinions forcing wrong playstyles on you giving you wrong advice picking wrong champions making wrong calls and blaming their lack of success on irrelevant small failures.
Text above describes the most successful team I've been in so far.
it took me like 2 weeks of really really painful soloQ just to regain the knowledge I had and get back to the point where I was before I started playing with them.
Well Scip, you're someone who I'd consider a fairly successful solo queue player who's more or less reconciled yourself with the mindset required to be successful in solo queue.
There are a lot of LoL players who play ranked who are not this way, and will never be this way, and if they're getting ragey and frustrated every solo queue game, they're not going to improve quickly either. And in that context, going into games somewhat clear-headed will actually result in you improving faster because even if you're doing things wrong, you're at least thinking about the game rather than raging about the guys in the other lanes (well OK sometimes you're doing that too).
|
On July 24 2013 05:59 Numy wrote:
Why is it that premades that call bot are always the worst on the team and always do terribly.
They are just the most memorable.
|
On July 24 2013 05:59 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 05:54 Scip wrote:
I can't emphasise how much playing ranked5s retarded my growth as a player
just people with wrong opinions forcing wrong playstyles on you giving you wrong advice picking wrong champions making wrong calls and blaming their lack of success on irrelevant small failures.
Text above describes the most successful team I've been in so far.
it took me like 2 weeks of really really painful soloQ just to regain the knowledge I had and get back to the point where I was before I started playing with them. Well Scip, you're someone who I'd consider a fairly successful solo queue player who's more or less reconciled yourself with the mindset required to be successful in solo queue. There are a lot of LoL players who play ranked who are not this way, and will never be this way, and if they're getting ragey and frustrated every solo queue game, they're not going to improve quickly either.
it also doesn't help that so few people have actual experience with ranked 5's in League that they are likely going to have a poor mindset going into it and end up like scip. in a team that fails to recognize why they aren't improving.
|
On July 24 2013 05:59 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 05:54 Scip wrote:
I can't emphasise how much playing ranked5s retarded my growth as a player
just people with wrong opinions forcing wrong playstyles on you giving you wrong advice picking wrong champions making wrong calls and blaming their lack of success on irrelevant small failures.
Text above describes the most successful team I've been in so far.
it took me like 2 weeks of really really painful soloQ just to regain the knowledge I had and get back to the point where I was before I started playing with them. Well Scip, you're someone who I'd consider a fairly successful solo queue player who's more or less reconciled yourself with the mindset required to be successful in solo queue. There are a lot of LoL players who play ranked who are not this way, and will never be this way, and if they're getting ragey and frustrated every solo queue game, they're not going to improve quickly either.
I think people without the right solo queue mindset; isn't going to bring the right mindset in 5's either. Still going to blame others, and not accept any of their own faults.
|
On July 24 2013 06:00 nafta wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 05:59 Numy wrote:
Why is it that premades that call bot are always the worst on the team and always do terribly. They are just the most memorable.
Well I mean I remember premades who completely carried the game that didn't call bot instead were like one top or one jungle etc.
|
On July 24 2013 06:02 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 05:59 TheYango wrote:On July 24 2013 05:54 Scip wrote:
I can't emphasise how much playing ranked5s retarded my growth as a player
just people with wrong opinions forcing wrong playstyles on you giving you wrong advice picking wrong champions making wrong calls and blaming their lack of success on irrelevant small failures.
Text above describes the most successful team I've been in so far.
it took me like 2 weeks of really really painful soloQ just to regain the knowledge I had and get back to the point where I was before I started playing with them. Well Scip, you're someone who I'd consider a fairly successful solo queue player who's more or less reconciled yourself with the mindset required to be successful in solo queue. There are a lot of LoL players who play ranked who are not this way, and will never be this way, and if they're getting ragey and frustrated every solo queue game, they're not going to improve quickly either. I think people without the right solo queue mindset; isn't going to bring the right mindset in 5's either. Still going to blame others, and not accept any of their own faults.
if you don't understand what is your fault when 4 other people agree that something was a mistake. then playing solo queue isn't going to help that person. that guys just a dick. it doesn't mean the 4 other people should give up and go to solo queue.
|
United States47024 Posts
Is it really strange to think that someone who is obstinate and unforgiving with 4 random players will be more calm and introspective with 4 players he knows? It's not outrageous to believe that someone will think or behave differently among friends than among randoms.
EDIT:
rEvolutionTU
ask him if he cares as much about a chick in a one night stand as in a relationship
4:06:11 PM rEvolutionTU
duh
Better analogy, lol.
|
On July 24 2013 05:31 jaybrundage wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 05:29 Nos- wrote:
Having fun isn't the point of league, the point of league is to get as high up in ranked as possible and slap people with your penis *Looks at our respective ratings.* "Helspeth come here" *SLAP*
YOU'RE NOT EVEN THAT MUCH HIGHER DON'T YOU SLAP ME
|
On July 24 2013 06:03 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 06:02 wei2coolman wrote:On July 24 2013 05:59 TheYango wrote:On July 24 2013 05:54 Scip wrote:
I can't emphasise how much playing ranked5s retarded my growth as a player
just people with wrong opinions forcing wrong playstyles on you giving you wrong advice picking wrong champions making wrong calls and blaming their lack of success on irrelevant small failures.
Text above describes the most successful team I've been in so far.
it took me like 2 weeks of really really painful soloQ just to regain the knowledge I had and get back to the point where I was before I started playing with them. Well Scip, you're someone who I'd consider a fairly successful solo queue player who's more or less reconciled yourself with the mindset required to be successful in solo queue. There are a lot of LoL players who play ranked who are not this way, and will never be this way, and if they're getting ragey and frustrated every solo queue game, they're not going to improve quickly either. I think people without the right solo queue mindset; isn't going to bring the right mindset in 5's either. Still going to blame others, and not accept any of their own faults. if you don't understand what is your fault when 4 other people agree that something was a mistake. then playing solo queue isn't going to help that person. that guys just a dick. it doesn't mean the 4 other people should give up and go to solo queue.
No, but the player isn't going to improve either way. Remember this whole argument/debate originated from the idea 'oh solo queue ain't helping me'. Which is wrong. Once you've accepted that solo queue can improve you as a player, then that's when you can improve in a 5's setting as well. No point in dragging 4 other people down with you if you can't prove to be a player with right mentality.
On July 24 2013 06:04 TheYango wrote:
Is it really strange to think that someone who is obstinate and unforgiving with 4 random players will be more calm and introspective with 4 players he knows? It's not outrageous to believe that someone will think or behave differently among friends than among randoms.
Yes.
|
On July 24 2013 06:08 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 06:03 PrinceXizor wrote:On July 24 2013 06:02 wei2coolman wrote:On July 24 2013 05:59 TheYango wrote:On July 24 2013 05:54 Scip wrote:
I can't emphasise how much playing ranked5s retarded my growth as a player
just people with wrong opinions forcing wrong playstyles on you giving you wrong advice picking wrong champions making wrong calls and blaming their lack of success on irrelevant small failures.
Text above describes the most successful team I've been in so far.
it took me like 2 weeks of really really painful soloQ just to regain the knowledge I had and get back to the point where I was before I started playing with them. Well Scip, you're someone who I'd consider a fairly successful solo queue player who's more or less reconciled yourself with the mindset required to be successful in solo queue. There are a lot of LoL players who play ranked who are not this way, and will never be this way, and if they're getting ragey and frustrated every solo queue game, they're not going to improve quickly either. I think people without the right solo queue mindset; isn't going to bring the right mindset in 5's either. Still going to blame others, and not accept any of their own faults. if you don't understand what is your fault when 4 other people agree that something was a mistake. then playing solo queue isn't going to help that person. that guys just a dick. it doesn't mean the 4 other people should give up and go to solo queue. No, but the player isn't going to improve either way. Remember this whole argument/debate originated from the idea 'oh solo queue ain't helping me'. Which is wrong. Once you've accepted that solo queue can improve you as a player, then that's when you can improve in a 5's setting as well. No point in dragging 4 other people down with you if you can't prove to be a player with right mentality. Show nested quote +On July 24 2013 06:04 TheYango wrote:
Is it really strange to think that someone who is obstinate and unforgiving with 4 random players will be more calm and introspective with 4 players he knows? It's not outrageous to believe that someone will think or behave differently among friends than among randoms. Yes.
okay yeah, if you are willing to look at your mistakes to improve and accept your mistakes you can learn from solo queue and a team environment. but the team environment is more efficient to learn from, and thus better. Scip is the exception not the rule. we have years and years of proof within dota of this. and league isn't inherently such a different game that it doesn't apply.
|
I know plenty of people who rage and bitch when they play with folks they know, there's no precedent saying you play better with friends/teammates.
|
On July 24 2013 06:11 Requizen wrote:
I know plenty of people who rage and bitch when they play with folks they know, there's no precedent saying you play better with friends/teammates.
but you are held accountable for what you say to your friends/teammates. not so randoms.
|
United States47024 Posts
On July 24 2013 06:11 Requizen wrote:
I know plenty of people who rage and bitch when they play with folks they know, there's no precedent saying you play better with friends/teammates.
Of course not, but there's also going to be people that do think/behave differently among friends. I know I act/think a hell of a lot differently around strangers than around friends.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
