On June 29 2013 04:03 Sandster wrote: Amumu and Sej are fundamentally different, but the problem is most people don't consider team comps in solo queue so they are used interchangeably. Ideally Amumu is on a team with a tanky top laner so he can build stuff stuff like Rylai/Liandry/Spectral/Abyssal and do massive damage, but he almost never gets a chance to. Usually you have to build an Aegis, and if you're the only tanky champ on the team you pretty much have to build defensive.
Max rank Q with some CDR is both a chase/peel tool and his primary burst. He *can* do a lot of damage if given a chance, but most people see Amumu and go "oh ok we got our tank/initator covered, I'll pick Trynd top now". Honestly full tank Amumu late game is only useful for initiation (/Randuin or FH slow) and bandage peels, and people wonder why he falls off.
They are actually fundamentally as similar as non-ad champs can get in this game. They both scale fairly well off ap but require defensive stats. (Not to mention their spells literally cannot get any more similar) Just because amumu scales a little better doesn't make them fundamentally different. Why would you ever want a tanky top so you can have your jungler build more damage? That's fundamentally ridiculous, when you can just have a tanky jungle and a more damaging top and it'd be better in any conceivable scenario. Amumu is perfectly fine building pure tank or ap tank depending on how he does early-mid, same as sej.
On June 29 2013 04:07 Slayer91 wrote: Honestly I've always prefered to play tank amumu and don't feel like you fall off at any point.
Why get rylais when you can just get CDR and q? The slow is useless if you get cc'd but an extra Q will always close the gap. Spectral is kinda dumb, you are a tank so why are you getting spell vamp, its good for snowballing early on but later on its not going to do anything.
abyssal/liandries are the best dps mumu items, because he scales so well off mpen, but id argue you want them as last items or something and not first items.
Well you build him as game dictates. If your team lacks damage you build more damage, if team lacks a front line you build tankier. Also depends on how much gold you're getting compared to rest of your team and other team.
What we're arguing is that people just build him straight tank and think that's the only thing he can do well, which is not true.
EDIT: Amumu and Sej are different in that one has much more control than the other. Amumu has two cc's: Q and R. Sejuani has more consistent and aoe-centric cc. It's much easier to ignore one than the other in team fights.
Yeah i really like tanky/CDR mummy with q max, even without dmg items you're a monster at levels 6~11-12 cause of high base dmg. My problem with it is that i always goo oom in teamfights since it's so mana intensive, so i only pick him with manaless or blue independent mids. Am i missing something?
no, you're arguing that people build him straight tank and thats wrong.
You don't need to use bandage to "peel", you use it primarily on squishy champs, that means either your team can capitalize on the catch or sometimes you're tanky enough that they have to back off or people will switch tof ocus you and thats when you want to use the next q to hit one of their tanks and collapse that way.
The mana issue is mostly solved by getting glacial shroud, it's pretty cost effective these days and frozen heart isnt have bad anyway.
On June 29 2013 04:11 Anakko wrote: Yeah i really like tanky/CDR mummy with q max, even without dmg items you're a monster at levels 6~11-12 cause of high base dmg. My problem with it is that i always goo oom in teamfights since it's so mana intensive, so i only pick him with manaless or blue independent mids. Am i missing something?
A lot of my friends who are relatively new at this game doesn't recall nearly often enough. So maybe this is your issue as well? Amumu's mana is perfectly fine with a spritestone.
he said in teamfights, and thats because max cdr q is really mana intensive
you can use it as "harass" when you Q a front line target and run off so your team can get poke in, after a few of those you might want to flash q in, then maybe q out, then maybe q to catch runners, while using W E and R you go oom very fast without a mana item.
On June 29 2013 04:12 Slayer91 wrote: no, you're arguing that people build him straight tank and thats wrong.
You don't need to use bandage to "peel", you use it primarily on squishy champs, that means either your team can capitalize on the catch or sometimes you're tanky enough that they have to back off or people will switch tof ocus you and thats when you want to use the next q to hit one of their tanks and collapse that way.
The mana issue is mostly solved by getting glacial shroud, it's pretty cost effective these days and frozen heart isnt have bad anyway.
Amumu is fine if you build pure tank (even though I do not prefer it).
Also it's really weird you're telling someone what their argument is and then arguing against the argument you just put in their mouth.
I am careful enough to not go oom in the jungle, my problem is in long drawm-out teamfights, where i have w on and spam my low cd q, i usually go oom pretty fast that way. It really is awkward, like i'm still 3/4 hp and not really threatened, but i just won't be able to chase down that low hp nasus coz i have no more mana for that last q.
I generally don't think Rylai's is that effective on champs that are only using the AoE version of the slow (which is true of Amumu because the only single-target spell he has stuns already). There are of course, a few exceptions, but I don't feel Amumu is one of them.
Spectral Wraith just isn't a good teamfighting item because it commits so much to regen/sustain stats. 40 AP + 10% CDR is like a little over 1k gold of actual combat stats and everything else is regen/sustain/farming. Regardless of how you build, Amumu is a very teamfight-centric champ the entire game, so an item with such low teamfighting effectiveness is pretty questionable regardless.
On June 29 2013 04:15 Anakko wrote: I am careful enough to not go oom in the jungle, my problem is in long drawm-out teamfights, where i have w on and spam my low cd q, i usually go oom pretty fast that way. It really is awkward, like i'm still 3/4 hp and not really threatened, but i just won't be able to chase down that low hp nasus coz i have no more mana for that last q.
That does happen, although I can't conceive of any cdr build that does not involve glacial?
Glacial is usually the tipping point to be unstoppable yeah. just that i prefer building golem spirit item, then locket and usually an aegis. maybe i should change the item order? Thing is i don't feel good getting a glacial to early without a comfortable hp buffer...
I had the same problem adjusting with the golem change, cause you often want aegis insted of glacial, but getting tabi+glacial instead of cdr boots+aegis is definitely best vs heavy AD teams and vs heavy MR teams they're usually squishier and you probably will need less Q's anyway (bulwark+abyssal dat mr huehue)
On June 29 2013 04:08 Feartheguru wrote: They are actually fundamentally as similar as non-ad champs can get in this game. They both scale fairly well off ap but require defensive stats. (Not to mention their spells literally cannot get any more similar) Just because amumu scales a little better doesn't make them fundamentally different. Why would you ever want a tanky top so you can have your jungler build more damage? That's fundamentally ridiculous, when you can just have a tanky jungle and a more damaging top and it'd be better in any conceivable scenario. Amumu is perfectly fine building pure tank or ap tank depending on how he does early-mid, same as sej.
How is it better? Farm is 100% interchangeable past the early game by assigning who gets to farm lanes. There should fundamentally be zero difference between having a tanky top laner and a damage-dealing jungler and having a tanky jungler and a tanky top laner once you get to the point where lanes break down and you can give the jungler lane farm to catch up to where a laner would be.
Lane assignment should be 100% based on who does better in the lanes, and actual "role" assignment dictating post-lane phase farm. There's no reason they should be tied together. The only thing that should matter is farming *efficiency* because distribution is totally fluid--meaning that the better laner should be in the lane cuz he'll get more farm there, and the better jungler should be in the jungle.
Look, I build Amumu tanky 90% of the time too, unless I get super fed. I was saying late game Sejuani will do better building full tank than Amumu, because outside of his ult Amumu has very little control when everyone is close to 6 items.
Amumu can build however he wants and wreck faces 6-11 in team fights, I don't think anyone is arguing that.
^ Usually Golem -> Locket (vs mostly AD) / Aegis (vs 2+ AP) -> build the other item or Glacial depending on the game. He has free damage reduction in his E, and many teams want to focus on other targets after Amumu has blown his ult and is building tanky.
You can also blue elixir with Golem->Sorc->HG and laugh at how hard those Qs hit.
EDIT: I type way too slow. But anyway if you are building full tank Amumu, then that begs the question, wouldn't Sejuani have been a better choice for this game?
On June 29 2013 04:08 Feartheguru wrote: They are actually fundamentally as similar as non-ad champs can get in this game. They both scale fairly well off ap but require defensive stats. (Not to mention their spells literally cannot get any more similar) Just because amumu scales a little better doesn't make them fundamentally different. Why would you ever want a tanky top so you can have your jungler build more damage? That's fundamentally ridiculous, when you can just have a tanky jungle and a more damaging top and it'd be better in any conceivable scenario. Amumu is perfectly fine building pure tank or ap tank depending on how he does early-mid, same as sej.
How is it better? Farm is 100% interchangeable past the early game by assigning who gets to farm lanes. There should fundamentally be zero difference between having a tanky top laner and a damage-dealing jungler and having a tanky jungler and a tanky top laner once you get to the point where lanes break down and you can give the jungler lane farm to catch up to where a laner would be.
Lane assignment should be 100% based on who does better in the lanes, and actual "role" assignment dictating post-lane phase farm. There's no reason they should be tied together. The only thing that should matter is farming *efficiency* because distribution is totally fluid--meaning that the better laner should be in the lane cuz he'll get more farm there, and the better jungler should be in the jungle.
Saying farm is interchangeable means nothing. In vast majority of games, top laner will have more money than the jungle (why would you push farm from top into the jungle? That ruins the farming efficiency you're talking about.) Items, especially offensive ones scale with themselves, so if you have to have one tank person and one damage person, logically you want the top laner (with more gold) to build damage and the jungle to build tanky.
P.S. I understood exactly what you are saying, and it's a valid point since amumu has very good scaling compared to a lot of top lane champs, but farm is not 100% interchangeable, there is a major opportunity cost (in terms of overall midgame power) in letting the jungler farm up midgame as opposed to the top laner who also had more farm in the early game.
EPT
