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On June 29 2013 04:24 Slayer91 wrote:
I had the same problem adjusting with the golem change, cause you often want aegis insted of glacial, but getting tabi+glacial instead of cdr boots+aegis is definitely best vs heavy AD teams and vs heavy MR teams they're usually squishier and you probably will need less Q's anyway (bulwark+abyssal dat mr huehue)
Amumu with high base hp and the hp from crest of the golem benefits about the same with armor from glacial vs armor+hp from locket. Accounting for the cost difference and the active, it would be a very close choice between the two even without the mana factor. So knowing that amumu has mana issues, how is buying locket even a consideration? This is why I made my rather blunt statement earlier, the choice to pick locket over glacial never even crossed my mind.
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Rylai on Amumu is kind of funny when ahead, but in reality it's not a great item.
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On June 29 2013 04:38 Sufficiency wrote:
Rylai on Amumu is kind of funny when ahead, but in reality it's not a great item.
Exactly true, rylai liandry is pretty hilarious when ahead, but you would've won with other builds anyways.
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United States47024 Posts
On June 29 2013 04:30 Feartheguru wrote:
Saying farm is interchangeable means nothing. In vast majority of games, top laner will have more money than the jungle (why would you push farm from top into the jungle? That ruins the farming efficiency you're talking about.) Items, especially offensive ones scale with themselves, so if you have to have one tank person and one damage person, logically you want the top laner (with more gold) to build damage and the jungle to build tanky.
P.S. I understood exactly what you are saying, and it's a valid point since amumu has very good scaling compared to a lot of top lane champs, but farm is not 100% interchangeable, there is a major opportunity cost (in terms of overall midgame power) in letting the jungler farm up midgame as opposed to the top laner who also had more farm in the early game.
Multiplicative damage scaling very often doesn't kick in on top lane damage dealers who often either are itemizing one major damage stat first for combo damage, are buying singular cost-effective damage items due to mediocre scaling anyway, or are AP-based and only really have one damage stat to work with primarily (either stacking MPen with high base damage or buying AP). If an AD carry were involved in this kind of farm redistribution, I would agree, but with top laners and junglers, most are relying on base damage or a single damage stat so the multiplicative advantage of putting gold primarily on one of them is not as significant as you say, at least not in the midgame when they're likely to have only 1 major item completed.
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For dmg, i rather go funfire/abyssal and sorcs. dat synergy.
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There are a lot of top laners that build tanky, or build 1-2 damage items and then tanky...
Shen, Malphite, Cho, Renekton, Singed, Zac, Irelia, Yorick and many others that haven't been seen as much lately.
Of those, only Zac and maybe Cho are "better" in the jungle since they all want certain items quickly, instead of the Golem/Aegis/Locket that most junglers build due to lower gold.
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On June 29 2013 04:42 Sandster wrote:
There are a lot of top laners that build tanky, or build 1-2 damage items and then tanky...
Shen, Malphite, Cho, Renekton, Singed, Zac, Irelia, Yorick and many others that haven't been seen as much lately.
Of those, only Zac and maybe Cho are "better" in the jungle since they all want certain items quickly, instead of the Golem/Aegis/Locket that most junglers build due to lower gold.
I'm assuming this is directed at me.
My argument was that if you wanted 1 tanky 1 dmg from jungle and top, you'd want the top to be the dmg one.
Why you think your list of tanky tops is relevant has not dawned on me.
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On June 29 2013 04:39 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2013 04:38 Sufficiency wrote:
Rylai on Amumu is kind of funny when ahead, but in reality it's not a great item. Exactly true, rylai liandry is pretty hilarious when ahead, but you would've won with other builds anyways.
Exactly. You can't expect to perm slow someone with your tiny AOE and 15% slow that lasts only 1.5 seconds. Any kind of CC against you will stop the slow train... unfortunately.
Rylai on Annie, on the other hand....
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On June 29 2013 04:45 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2013 04:42 Sandster wrote:
There are a lot of top laners that build tanky, or build 1-2 damage items and then tanky...
Shen, Malphite, Cho, Renekton, Singed, Zac, Irelia, Yorick and many others that haven't been seen as much lately.
Of those, only Zac and maybe Cho are "better" in the jungle since they all want certain items quickly, instead of the Golem/Aegis/Locket that most junglers build due to lower gold. I'm assuming this is directed at me. My argument was that if you wanted 1 tanky 1 dmg from jungle and top, you'd want the top to be the dmg one. Why you think your list of tanky tops is relevant has not dawned on me.
You can have two kinda-tanky guys that both do acceptable damage.
Amumu is a melee champ, and has to have defensive stats. But being paired with those guys lets him more leeway in building damage items instead of being forced to buy bulwark+locket+randuin/FH.
EDIT: ^ Dat Voyboy top lane Annie build.
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On June 29 2013 04:40 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2013 04:30 Feartheguru wrote:
Saying farm is interchangeable means nothing. In vast majority of games, top laner will have more money than the jungle (why would you push farm from top into the jungle? That ruins the farming efficiency you're talking about.) Items, especially offensive ones scale with themselves, so if you have to have one tank person and one damage person, logically you want the top laner (with more gold) to build damage and the jungle to build tanky.
P.S. I understood exactly what you are saying, and it's a valid point since amumu has very good scaling compared to a lot of top lane champs, but farm is not 100% interchangeable, there is a major opportunity cost (in terms of overall midgame power) in letting the jungler farm up midgame as opposed to the top laner who also had more farm in the early game. Multiplicative damage scaling very often doesn't kick in on top lane damage dealers who often either are itemizing one major damage stat first for combo damage, are buying singular cost-effective damage items due to mediocre scaling anyway, or are AP-based and only really have one damage stat to work with primarily (either stacking MPen with high base damage or buying AP). If an AD carry were involved in this kind of farm redistribution, I would agree, but with top laners and junglers, most are relying on base damage or a single damage stat so the multiplicative advantage of putting gold primarily on one of them is not as significant as you say, at least not in the midgame when they're likely to have only 1 major item completed.
From the past few pages, it seems like you are looking at amumu's close range/high-ratio AP damage and going "this guy should be built like Rumble" while Diamond was focusing on the initiation/CC and saying "this is why he should be built pure tank." The fact that Amumu is so good at both while other champions are more specialized is why amumu is such a strong pick: he fills multiple roles and is strong in more situations than "lower-tier" champions.
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On June 29 2013 04:51 Sandster wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2013 04:45 Feartheguru wrote:On June 29 2013 04:42 Sandster wrote:
There are a lot of top laners that build tanky, or build 1-2 damage items and then tanky...
Shen, Malphite, Cho, Renekton, Singed, Zac, Irelia, Yorick and many others that haven't been seen as much lately.
Of those, only Zac and maybe Cho are "better" in the jungle since they all want certain items quickly, instead of the Golem/Aegis/Locket that most junglers build due to lower gold. I'm assuming this is directed at me. My argument was that if you wanted 1 tanky 1 dmg from jungle and top, you'd want the top to be the dmg one. Why you think your list of tanky tops is relevant has not dawned on me. You can have two kinda-tanky guys that both do acceptable damage. Amumu is a melee champ, and has to have defensive stats. But being paired with those guys lets him more leeway in building damage items instead of being forced to buy bulwark+locket+randuin/FH. EDIT: ^ Dat Voyboy top lane Annie build.
Ok fair enough, there are situations where'd you want that.
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On June 29 2013 04:26 Sandster wrote:
Look, I build Amumu tanky 90% of the time too, unless I get super fed. I was saying late game Sejuani will do better building full tank than Amumu, because outside of his ult Amumu has very little control when everyone is close to 6 items.
Amumu can build however he wants and wreck faces 6-11 in team fights, I don't think anyone is arguing that.
^ Usually Golem -> Locket (vs mostly AD) / Aegis (vs 2+ AP) -> build the other item or Glacial depending on the game. He has free damage reduction in his E, and many teams want to focus on other targets after Amumu has blown his ult and is building tanky.
You can also blue elixir with Golem->Sorc->HG and laugh at how hard those Qs hit.
EDIT: I type way too slow. But anyway if you are building full tank Amumu, then that begs the question, wouldn't Sejuani have been a better choice for this game?
why is sejunai better than amumu with tank builds
On June 29 2013 04:38 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2013 04:24 Slayer91 wrote:
I had the same problem adjusting with the golem change, cause you often want aegis insted of glacial, but getting tabi+glacial instead of cdr boots+aegis is definitely best vs heavy AD teams and vs heavy MR teams they're usually squishier and you probably will need less Q's anyway (bulwark+abyssal dat mr huehue) Amumu with high base hp and the hp from crest of the golem benefits about the same with armor from glacial vs armor+hp from locket. Accounting for the cost difference and the active, it would be a very close choice between the two even without the mana factor. So knowing that amumu has mana issues, how is buying locket even a consideration? This is why I made my rather blunt statement earlier, the choice to pick locket over glacial never even crossed my mind.
and your math to back that up is where?
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On June 29 2013 04:38 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2013 04:24 Slayer91 wrote:
I had the same problem adjusting with the golem change, cause you often want aegis insted of glacial, but getting tabi+glacial instead of cdr boots+aegis is definitely best vs heavy AD teams and vs heavy MR teams they're usually squishier and you probably will need less Q's anyway (bulwark+abyssal dat mr huehue) Amumu with high base hp and the hp from crest of the golem benefits about the same with armor from glacial vs armor+hp from locket. Accounting for the cost difference and the active, it would be a very close choice between the two even without the mana factor. So knowing that amumu has mana issues, how is buying locket even a consideration? This is why I made my rather blunt statement earlier, the choice to pick locket over glacial never even crossed my mind.
Teamfights are to be considered and your teammates will enjoy the extra shield more than your extra mana.
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On June 29 2013 04:57 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2013 04:51 Sandster wrote:On June 29 2013 04:45 Feartheguru wrote:On June 29 2013 04:42 Sandster wrote:
There are a lot of top laners that build tanky, or build 1-2 damage items and then tanky...
Shen, Malphite, Cho, Renekton, Singed, Zac, Irelia, Yorick and many others that haven't been seen as much lately.
Of those, only Zac and maybe Cho are "better" in the jungle since they all want certain items quickly, instead of the Golem/Aegis/Locket that most junglers build due to lower gold. I'm assuming this is directed at me. My argument was that if you wanted 1 tanky 1 dmg from jungle and top, you'd want the top to be the dmg one. Why you think your list of tanky tops is relevant has not dawned on me. You can have two kinda-tanky guys that both do acceptable damage. Amumu is a melee champ, and has to have defensive stats. But being paired with those guys lets him more leeway in building damage items instead of being forced to buy bulwark+locket+randuin/FH. EDIT: ^ Dat Voyboy top lane Annie build. Ok fair enough, there are situations where'd you want that.
Yeah I was just saying that anytime I pick Amumu our top laner is like "alright got our tank time to go Trynd/Rumble/Jayce/<insert squishy>!"
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United States47024 Posts
On June 29 2013 04:38 Feartheguru wrote:
Amumu with high base hp and the hp from crest of the golem benefits about the same with armor from glacial vs armor+hp from locket.
The EHP gain of 300 HP and 10 armor is not "about the same". At the point of having either as your first damage item, 300 HP is a LOT more, even if you're taking 100% physical damage.
Assuming a level 10 Amumu with ~1300 HP and 85 armor (50 base armor + 35 from either Locket or Glacial--the armor value is lowballing it because I didn't include armor runes and you might have Tabi before finishing Glacial or Locket, but higher starting armor favors Locket even more), +10 armor increases your EHP by 130, while +300 HP increases your EHP by 555.
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I think the reason that junglers tend to have low farm is not because of any reason that people seem to quibble about. Its that if Dragon is up in the early-midgame and you go farm a wave, that is high risk. If its mid-late and baron is up, once again, high risk. Lastly, since you are behind a little (usually in gold + levels) you will likely clear the wave slower + are fairly ssuceptible to being 1v1'd to either death, or being forced to back (and unlike an AD you prolly have no lifesteal) meaning once again the risk is high.
The last 2 reasons: Poor clear and easy to kill is why supports still dont get farm lategame as well. Even a Janna can't clear as fast as, say, a toplane Shen with sunfire. (By the way, bring back Ionic Spark).
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On June 29 2013 05:00 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2013 04:38 Feartheguru wrote:
Amumu with high base hp and the hp from crest of the golem benefits about the same with armor from glacial vs armor+hp from locket. The EHP gain of 300 HP and 10 armor is not "about the same". At the point of having either as your first damage item, 300 HP is a LOT more, even if you're taking 100% physical damage. Assuming a level 10 Amumu with ~1300 HP and 85 armor (50 base armor + 35 from either Locket or Glacial--the armor value is lowballing it because I didn't include armor runes and you might have Tabi before finishing Glacial or Locket, but higher starting armor favors Locket even more), +10 armor increases your EHP by 130, while +300 HP increases your EHP by 555.
I thought we are assuming you're buying crest of the ancient golem first.
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United States47024 Posts
That still doesn't make the 10 armor that much better. The EHP increase of 10 armor would still be only 180.
You're comparing what's basically 200 gold worth of armor to like 800 gold worth of HP. You have to have REALLY lopsided stats AND be taking almost entirely physical damage for them to be equivalent.
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^ Not even considering the shield from locket
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United States47024 Posts
On June 29 2013 05:07 Sandster wrote:
^ Not even considering the shield from locket
Well I'm taking him up on his assumption that the shield on Locket is covered by the difference in cost between Glacial and Locket.
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EPT
