|
On April 22 2013 07:14 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2013 07:04 onlywonderboy wrote:On April 22 2013 06:56 iCanada wrote:On April 22 2013 06:52 onlywonderboy wrote:On April 22 2013 06:49 Craton wrote:On April 22 2013 06:43 VayneAuthority wrote:On April 22 2013 06:02 Craton wrote:
In order to fix Thresh you must:
A.) Completely gut lantern. MASSIVELY reduce its range and make it tether if Thresh moves too far away. Something like 400 cast range, 600 tether range (maybe less).
B.) Greatly reduce the range and duration of hook. Fix the bug that allows you to cast and then flash to ignore the windup.
C.) Greatly nerf the amount of free stats from his passive and place a hard, level-based cap on how much you can get. glad you aren't doing the balancing then, you basically want to nerf all the things that make him unique instead of just hitting his base damages/stats so that you pay in tankiness and damage for the utility. I'll happily gut his "fun" for the sake of balance and his toxicity. What toxicity? He has a strong kit, it's not toxic like fucking AP Rengar and Trynd. Do you like laning vs thresh? It puts you in a helpless position because literally you can't be aggressive because his disengage is too good, and if he puts his lantern down behind him you have no idea if there is a jungler coming to wreck your shit from 1000 range and you can't be passive because Thresh scales harder than you. That and if for whatever reason the lane goes sour a Thresh can just kill you over and over again. Its not fun to lane against. Honestly I'd rather play a 1v2, I feel like I have more effective and meaningful choices to make. And I've been asking for the last three pages how to play against thresh without just losing, and no one has had any awnsers. No one. I've never had that much trouble against Tresh, although they haven't been good at lantern ganks so that probably made it a tad easier. I played Zyra and just used my range so abuse him. Worked out well enough. Edit: I also just circumvent the problem by playing him myself  Except his Q range is same range as you E, and if he hook you you die to that all in. Show nested quote +On April 22 2013 07:10 thenexusp wrote:
If you think Thresh is OP, go spam him in games and find out what makes him lose. This goes for any champion really. And if it turns out he's actually OP and you go on a 10 game winning streak that's good too. Win-win situation.
You're telling me you dont think its strange that not a single person on TL knows how to play against Thresh without the thresh being bad? <_<
What? All you can say is "Not a single person on TL that's online right now can answer your question of how to play against Thresh as a generic support with an unspecified AD carry against another unspecified AD carry and maybe there's a jungler involved as well"
Best way to find out is play him yourself.
EDIT: Also Zyra's E goes through minions and doesn't have nearly as much windup. Big difference.
|
honestly I think they need to clean up thresh's auto attack. The range is buggy as fuck. I've had games on caitlyn that I get counter harassed by thresh autos from 650+ range as im backpeddling after shooting him once. If they just changed his auto attack range to melee, I'd call him balanced.
You just have to play better overall to beat him I guess
no, you have to play better to go even. if you're equal in skill, you lose. period.
|
On April 22 2013 07:06 Dark_Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2013 06:53 Nos- wrote:
What if Thresh was melee instead of ranged? I'm terribly at theorycrafting but I kind of entertained the idea of Thresh being melee ranged, but then he'd just be like Blitz all over again. I've thought about it, and with no dash or point and click cc, this might actually make him more or less tolerable. Maybe lower the slow duration on his E and he should actually be fairly balanced. He'll still be on the strong side, but nothing incredibly problematic. Also, I really wouldn't mind Leona getting some buffs in exchange for some mana cost nerfs. I feel that for most of the supports, you have to at least pay some amount of attention to mana, but Leona is just the complete opposite. If her passive was, say, based of her own magic penetration and her ratios were raised a little higher, I feel that Leona could get some interesting build diversity. Maybe not viable, but it could be fun. Just throwing ideas around, haven't thought much about actual numbers.
You said it tho, her mana is a nonissue atm so any gameplay boosts would just make her stronger unless you change the mana costs by a LOT. Don't like the idea tbh.
Also no use to continue discussion on Thresh. Consensus is he's on the strong side on the very least and he has no easy weakness which is why he's picked so often in tournaments (same as lulu). You just have to play better overall to beat him I guess, but whining about it here isn't going to matter either way.
|
thresh isnt that bad IMO.
lulu is pretty good against him.
but yeah, when compared to blitz, the mana cost on his q needs to be increased.
|
On April 22 2013 07:19 thenexusp wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2013 07:14 iCanada wrote:On April 22 2013 07:04 onlywonderboy wrote:On April 22 2013 06:56 iCanada wrote:On April 22 2013 06:52 onlywonderboy wrote:On April 22 2013 06:49 Craton wrote:On April 22 2013 06:43 VayneAuthority wrote:On April 22 2013 06:02 Craton wrote:
In order to fix Thresh you must:
A.) Completely gut lantern. MASSIVELY reduce its range and make it tether if Thresh moves too far away. Something like 400 cast range, 600 tether range (maybe less).
B.) Greatly reduce the range and duration of hook. Fix the bug that allows you to cast and then flash to ignore the windup.
C.) Greatly nerf the amount of free stats from his passive and place a hard, level-based cap on how much you can get. glad you aren't doing the balancing then, you basically want to nerf all the things that make him unique instead of just hitting his base damages/stats so that you pay in tankiness and damage for the utility. I'll happily gut his "fun" for the sake of balance and his toxicity. What toxicity? He has a strong kit, it's not toxic like fucking AP Rengar and Trynd. Do you like laning vs thresh? It puts you in a helpless position because literally you can't be aggressive because his disengage is too good, and if he puts his lantern down behind him you have no idea if there is a jungler coming to wreck your shit from 1000 range and you can't be passive because Thresh scales harder than you. That and if for whatever reason the lane goes sour a Thresh can just kill you over and over again. Its not fun to lane against. Honestly I'd rather play a 1v2, I feel like I have more effective and meaningful choices to make. And I've been asking for the last three pages how to play against thresh without just losing, and no one has had any awnsers. No one. I've never had that much trouble against Tresh, although they haven't been good at lantern ganks so that probably made it a tad easier. I played Zyra and just used my range so abuse him. Worked out well enough. Edit: I also just circumvent the problem by playing him myself Except his Q range is same range as you E, and if he hook you you die to that all in. On April 22 2013 07:10 thenexusp wrote:
If you think Thresh is OP, go spam him in games and find out what makes him lose. This goes for any champion really. And if it turns out he's actually OP and you go on a 10 game winning streak that's good too. Win-win situation.
You're telling me you dont think its strange that not a single person on TL knows how to play against Thresh without the thresh being bad? <_< What? All you can say is "Not a single person on TL that's online right now can answer your question of how to play against Thresh as a generic support with an unspecified AD carry against another unspecified AD carry and maybe there's a jungler involved as well" Best way to find out is play him yourself.
I have played him myself. After five game I came to the conclusion that I was right and just started banning him.
Thing is I've been asking the same question for probably the past two weeks and no one has given a good answer.
I'm not the greatest player, but I see a champion that has way too many tools, and a complete lack of a true power curve. Dude is strong all game long. And its not just me, Thresh been picked or banned in all but two of NA LCS, as well as every single OGN game I've ever watched.
|
United States47024 Posts
I think it's pretty clear that something needs to be done about Thresh.
But the guy doesn't need to be gutted. In general both Riot and the community tend to be far too heavy-handed with regard to how much they believe a champion needs to be changed.
|
Hate laning against Thresh. Any time I tried to stun his carry as Taric, he'd run away and give a lantern ride out of range.
|
thresh is really really really really really really good.
monster 2v1 support, and with a adc that can duel with the enemy's 2, he can match almost all lanes 2v2.
gank assist is lolz, and mobility (for himself with q, restriction thereof his opponents' with his ult, e, and q, and the obvious mobility for his teammates with lantern) within teamfights is crazy and makes sticking on someone who has a smart thresh on his team very difficult.
he's relatively bad with weak early adcs because you can't abuse his presence as hard, but the gank assist is still there.
|
His lantern has a 18s base cd, if he maxes it first his auto harass is rather weak past levels 1-3, and if not you can put 2-3 points into your stun so its cd goes from 14 to 12-13s, and you have a window to abuse the lantern. Taric also tends to make initiating with hooks on him a waste (especially if he tries to follow up and E you, he won't have much to peel for his carry when you EW him, and you have sustain afterwards).
That's what I got from people saying after the W and E changes that the W>Q>E order wasn't as set in stone for Taric.
(I don't mean that Taric trashes Thresh, that's obviously false. However, he isn't powerless either. I'd feel more at ease with him than with Leona at least.)
|
Thresh Hook is just like playing against blitzcrank hook; if the thresh blows hook cooldown. Make sure to go apeshit on him.
|
The issue I have with him is that he fills too many roles. He has big engage by QQing into your team, he has disengage with Lantern and Box, he had strong bodyguarding, and can even semi-fulfill sustain roles with clever uses of his shield - and on top of that he does a pretty high amount of damage and gets free tank stats.
By comparison, most other supports fill one or two. Blitz and Leona can bodyguard and enegage, but they don't have much or any disengage and have 0 sustain or shields for teammates. Janna has super disengage and pretty good bodyguarding, but lacks any sort of engage (outside of big flash ult plays). Zyra has some engage and big disengage, but no sustain, little true bodyguarding, and doesn't get free tankiness or damage.
I just can't think of a support that has as much in their kit as Thresh does. Maybe Lulu comes close, but she lacks any sort of tankiness or hard engage/disengage as she requires her team to be in place to utilize her ult. Thresh can just use his kit at almost any point in the game in nearly any situation and still have the right tool.
Which, like Lee or Irelia, makes him hard to nerf without removing or reworking something completely. There are just some champs that Riot straight up gave too much to in one kit.
|
On April 22 2013 07:45 wei2coolman wrote:
Thresh Hook is just like playing against blitzcrank hook; if the thresh blows hook cooldown. Make sure to go apeshit on him.
Except Blitz can't have a wild jungler appear from two screens away.
Thats what I am saying. You can't abuse him in lane unless you know exactly where their jungler is or for some reason managed to get a ward inbetween the apposing lane's towers and in the tri-brush near blue.
As a jungler i hate ganking bottom. Its like the worst thing in the world. But if my team has Thresh is basically free kills all day long.
|
On April 22 2013 07:45 wei2coolman wrote:
Thresh Hook is just like playing against blitzcrank hook; if the thresh blows hook cooldown. Make sure to go apeshit on him.
Except, unlike Blitz, he'll just remain safe by Flaying you away, brings his teammate to him with lantern (getting a shield too as well), and then nukes you with his first hit auto proc. If Blitz misses his hook, all he can do is mostly try to knock you up or silence you and hope his teammate follows up. There's really no comparison.
Edit: not to mention missing. If Blitz grabs a minion, he reveals himself and has to run around until the hook is back. If Thresh misses a hook, he just Qs to the minion, drops Box, and combos anyway.
|
I think the issue is, people don't know how to play against gaps in cooldown
|
On April 22 2013 07:51 wei2coolman wrote:
I think the issue is, people don't know how to play against gaps in cooldown
No.
No thats really not the issue.
Blitz wastes his hook and you can straight up go full ham on the enemy lane. Thresh wastes his hook and you can't go full ham because rest of his kit strong enough to change the fight, and even if they weren't lantern ganks are so strong and unwardable that you couldn't go full ham on him anyway unless you see the entire enemy team on your minimap.
|
On April 22 2013 07:51 wei2coolman wrote:
I think the issue is, people don't know how to play against gaps in cooldown
You're discounting the rest of his kit. The difference is that Blitz's kit is pretty low key aside from his Hook. Thresh without Hook can still fuck your day up and change the flow of teamfights.
|
On April 22 2013 07:52 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2013 07:51 wei2coolman wrote:
I think the issue is, people don't know how to play against gaps in cooldown You're discounting the rest of his kit. The difference is that Blitz's kit is pretty low key aside from his Hook. Thresh without Hook can still fuck your day up and change the flow of teamfights.
I guess I'm just tired of going through GD, and half of it is #riotploxthisisopd.
I don't really think Thresh is as problematic as you guys think it is, got a lot to his kit, but it's not some unbeatable combo.
|
Thresh just does so much. The comparisons to Blitz are dumb because other than level 1 invades Thresh is just a straight up better champion than Blitz all game long.
|
United States47024 Posts
On April 22 2013 07:59 wei2coolman wrote:
I guess I'm just tired of going through GD, and half of it is #riotploxthisisopd.
Yup.
|
Thresh can't pull through walls though. :/
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
