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On April 22 2013 08:13 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2013 08:02 wei2coolman wrote:On April 22 2013 08:01 TheYango wrote:On April 22 2013 07:59 wei2coolman wrote:
I guess I'm just tired of going through GD, and half of it is #riotploxthisisopd. Yup. Too much "how can riot fix this?", and not enough "how do we play against this?" And right now the general consensus is "hug tower and hope he doesn't dive", "get a jungler to camp you", or "ban him". That's not really good.
Then why aren't you complaining about 1v2 lanes? Or playing graves against a caitlyn lane?
Sometimes not losing the lane badly, is winning your lane. Same applies to champs like Vlad, who has atrocious laning phase, and his entire goal in the game is to survive laning phase without feeding.
On April 22 2013 08:19 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2013 08:04 iCanada wrote:On April 22 2013 08:02 wei2coolman wrote:On April 22 2013 08:01 TheYango wrote:On April 22 2013 07:59 wei2coolman wrote:
I guess I'm just tired of going through GD, and half of it is #riotploxthisisopd. Yup. Too much "how can riot fix this?", and not enough "how do we play against this?" I asked how do we play against this probably a hundred times... I didn't get an answer. I got "abuse his cooldowns" and "Push the wave and try to abuse range" which aren't really applicable because you can't do them unless your jungler is kicking the other junglers teeth in. The answer that is pretty much implicit (yet nobody wants to hear it) is just "play better than the other team". Everyone is going to make small errors. Positioning errors, mana management errors, skill mis-usage, etc. You just have to make less of them than the Thresh player and punish him when he makes those mistakes. It's not a very satisfying answer, but it's fundamentally how you deal with OP things. A bad Thresh player isn't going to outplay a vastly better player on a weaker support. You just have to be vastly better. The skill disparity between you and the Thresh player has to be higher than what the "OP-ness" of the champion makes up for. I don't know why anyone with any background in BW or SC2 should expect a different answer than this, though.
^this.
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Thresh is the support Irelia.
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On April 22 2013 09:02 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2013 08:13 Requizen wrote:On April 22 2013 08:02 wei2coolman wrote:On April 22 2013 08:01 TheYango wrote:On April 22 2013 07:59 wei2coolman wrote:
I guess I'm just tired of going through GD, and half of it is #riotploxthisisopd. Yup. Too much "how can riot fix this?", and not enough "how do we play against this?" And right now the general consensus is "hug tower and hope he doesn't dive", "get a jungler to camp you", or "ban him". That's not really good. Then why aren't you complaining about 1v2 lanes? Or playing graves against a caitlyn lane? Sometimes not losing the lane badly, is winning your lane. Same applies to champs like Vlad, who has atrocious laning phase, and his entire goal in the game is to survive laning phase without feeding.
While I'm not too familiar with 1v2 lanes or the pro scene, it's still bad to compare it to thresh. The two people do lose something compared to the one laner (less exp), and it happens on both teams. In ranked, only one side can pick Thresh.
The Vlad argument doesn't work, because it's not like Thresh is weak at any point in the game. Having that much utility keeps him perfectly fine in the late game, and having that much damage+utility keeps him perfectly fine early and mid game.
I'm not sure the point of the Graves vs Cait lane argument, because an easy answer is that you can play someone other than Graves and do fine vs Cait. And it's not like Cait doesn't have her weaknesses.
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On April 22 2013 09:44 obesechicken13 wrote:
Anything to watch?
Crs doing Ranked 5s.
I'm noticing something remarkable. Rhux can hit Sona ults.
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On April 22 2013 10:13 jcarlsoniv wrote:Crs doing Ranked 5s. I'm noticing something remarkable. Rhux can hit Sona ults.
Saint Jungles the Orianna too.
Haha.
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United States23745 Posts
Guess he really wants AP Junglers to be a thing haha.
Edit: Actual question though, when/who should I buy Doran's Rings on?
I have a pretty good idea of when I would want to pick up Doran's Blade/Shield, but I just have no sense of then I should buy a Doran's Ring or when it would just be better idea to go with a mana item like Chalice/Tear.
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If you need a big mana pool buy tear (champs like Anivia or Swain). If you only need mana regen buy chalice (Orianna or Lux). If you don't really run into any mana issues buy Drings or go straight into core items (Ahri, TF, Diana).
Really basic and simplistic but yeah. Pretty much this.
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On April 22 2013 10:44 onlywonderboy wrote:
Guess he really wants AP Junglers to be a thing haha.
Edit: Actual question though, when/who should I buy Doran's Rings on?
I have a pretty good idea of when I would want to pick up Doran's Blade/Shield, but I just have no sense of then I should buy a Doran's Ring or when it would just be better idea to go with a mana item like Chalice/Tear.
Used to get DRings (and going to start doing so again) on Viktor. Very cost efficient items for lane aggression.
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On April 22 2013 10:44 onlywonderboy wrote:
Guess he really wants AP Junglers to be a thing haha.
Edit: Actual question though, when/who should I buy Doran's Rings on?
I have a pretty good idea of when I would want to pick up Doran's Blade/Shield, but I just have no sense of then I should buy a Doran's Ring or when it would just be better idea to go with a mana item like Chalice/Tear.
No, him and Jacky failed to switch. Jacky had his J4.
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also think about whether you want the chalice/tear items after.
like with annie, i don't think she benefits too much from grail CDR or seraph's/muramana when you're just aiming to burst, so drings > deathcap/dfg/whatever is a nice build.
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United States23745 Posts
On April 22 2013 10:50 overt wrote:
If you need a big mana pool buy tear (champs like Anivia or Swain). If you only need mana regen buy chalice (Orianna or Lux). If you don't really run into any mana issues buy Drings or go straight into core items (Ahri, TF, Diana).
Really basic and simplistic but yeah. Pretty much this.
So I guess at that point it's similar to Doran's Blades where I'm buying some early game power but it slows down the rest of my build. I guess I just get hung up on if it's worth delaying my build, but I guess that differs on a case-by-case basis.
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On April 22 2013 09:02 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2013 08:13 Requizen wrote:On April 22 2013 08:02 wei2coolman wrote:On April 22 2013 08:01 TheYango wrote:On April 22 2013 07:59 wei2coolman wrote:
I guess I'm just tired of going through GD, and half of it is #riotploxthisisopd. Yup. Too much "how can riot fix this?", and not enough "how do we play against this?" And right now the general consensus is "hug tower and hope he doesn't dive", "get a jungler to camp you", or "ban him". That's not really good. Then why aren't you complaining about 1v2 lanes? Or playing graves against a caitlyn lane? Sometimes not losing the lane badly, is winning your lane. Same applies to champs like Vlad, who has atrocious laning phase, and his entire goal in the game is to survive laning phase without feeding. Show nested quote +On April 22 2013 08:19 TheYango wrote:On April 22 2013 08:04 iCanada wrote:On April 22 2013 08:02 wei2coolman wrote:On April 22 2013 08:01 TheYango wrote:On April 22 2013 07:59 wei2coolman wrote:
I guess I'm just tired of going through GD, and half of it is #riotploxthisisopd. Yup. Too much "how can riot fix this?", and not enough "how do we play against this?" I asked how do we play against this probably a hundred times... I didn't get an answer. I got "abuse his cooldowns" and "Push the wave and try to abuse range" which aren't really applicable because you can't do them unless your jungler is kicking the other junglers teeth in. The answer that is pretty much implicit (yet nobody wants to hear it) is just "play better than the other team". Everyone is going to make small errors. Positioning errors, mana management errors, skill mis-usage, etc. You just have to make less of them than the Thresh player and punish him when he makes those mistakes. It's not a very satisfying answer, but it's fundamentally how you deal with OP things. A bad Thresh player isn't going to outplay a vastly better player on a weaker support. You just have to be vastly better. The skill disparity between you and the Thresh player has to be higher than what the "OP-ness" of the champion makes up for. I don't know why anyone with any background in BW or SC2 should expect a different answer than this, though. ^this.
Because those are terrible comparisons. 1v2 laning is a strat where you know you're ceding farm and xp and tower hugging, but you expect your 2v1 lane to win to make up for your sacrifice, and more often than not you know you're going into it. Not the same as a champ being strong. There's a difference between saying "oh I'm in a 1v2 lane I have to play like a pansy and survive dives" and "oh he picked a champion that can't be initiated on and has a super strong initiate, guess bot is in for a shit storm no matter who they pick".
And Graves vs Cait is a counterpick situation, if it was just Thresh vs Soraka I'd not be saying anything. When it's Thresh vs almost every bot lane comp, it's an issue.
The more apt comparison would be Yorick in top where you just need to not get buttfucked, except you "win" against Yorick by not feeding and taking advantage of his shit late game, while Thresh's late game is pretty good.
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I would love if Soraka magically was a counterpick to Thresh. Alas, I fear she is currently only a counterpick to your own team.
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On April 22 2013 11:07 onlywonderboy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2013 10:50 overt wrote:
If you need a big mana pool buy tear (champs like Anivia or Swain). If you only need mana regen buy chalice (Orianna or Lux). If you don't really run into any mana issues buy Drings or go straight into core items (Ahri, TF, Diana).
Really basic and simplistic but yeah. Pretty much this. So I guess at that point it's similar to Doran's Blades where I'm buying some early game power but it slows down the rest of my build. I guess I just get hung up on if it's worth delaying my build, but I guess that differs on a case-by-case basis.
On some people, like Diana or Ahri, the extra health from Drings lets you play a bit more ballsy. I've dived people as Ahri or Diana and lived with 50 health too many times to under value Drings. As TF Drings help give you a quick power spike that you can easily abuse because of his ult.
But obviously if you don't think you can make plays with the Drings just go into your core.
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On April 22 2013 08:50 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2013 08:23 Alaric wrote:
Kinda how everyone says Skarner is garbage because they concentrate on the worst outcome (poking team with slows that manages to flash your flash ult). imo skarner is garbage because they removed the "bug" of not being able to flash out of his ult. personally i think that fix hurt him a lot more than people think.
I don't get why they don't just remove the animation delay on the ult-cast. That way you wouldn't be able to break his ult by flashing away, and you also wouldn't have people whining because they get dragged back after they flash away. win-win.
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United States47024 Posts
TBH I think the whole concept of Soraka as a support only ever worked because her numbers were too strong at the time.
So much of what she does scales off having farm.
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On April 22 2013 08:02 MoonBear wrote:
Even if kits are very problematic, number tweaks are always a possible solution. For instance, Blitzcrank was once the #1 target of hate but has now fallen off. Vlad dropped off after S1 from number changes. The same goes for many other champions. It doesn't always have to be kit or mechanic changes.
While Thresh is powerful, his kit is still balance-able by forcing a trade off somewhere else in return for his powerful skills. (Mana costs? Base stats? Move Speed? Many ways to approach this problem.)
Blitz is still banned in nearly all of my games.
Thresh is simply better than him in all aspects, so why take Blitz when you can have Thresh.
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On April 22 2013 09:12 Gahlo wrote:
Thresh is the support Irelia.
yep, this 100%. even though some champs might do some things better than him(/her), s/he at his(/her) peak just do too many things too well. nerfs must (did) follow to get him(/her) down to a reasonable level
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On April 22 2013 11:45 gtrsrs wrote:yep, this 100%. even though some champs might do some things better than him(/her), s/he at his(/her) peak just do too many things too well. nerfs must (did) follow to get him(/her) down to a reasonable level
Well, this also demonstrates why Thresh may be different than Blitz. Thresh's power can really be balanced away from one portion of his kit (Lantern Ganks, Hooks in general) and into the shielding, or into his AA, or into other areas. The Hook probably shouldn't pull as far as it does, or stun as long as it does. Maybe it should be something like an optional Leona Q wherein the root/stun only procs when you zoom in.
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EPT
