EPTToo much "how can riot fix this?", and not enough "how do we play against this?"
[Patch 3.05: Balance Update] General Discussion - Page 136
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
Too much "how can riot fix this?", and not enough "how do we play against this?" | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31494 Posts
On April 22 2013 08:01 ticklishmusic wrote: Thresh can't pull through walls though. :/ Which in certain situations is better. | ||
MoonBear
Straight outta Johto18973 Posts
While Thresh is powerful, his kit is still balance-able by forcing a trade off somewhere else in return for his powerful skills. (Mana costs? Base stats? Move Speed? Many ways to approach this problem.) | ||
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emperorchampion
Canada9496 Posts
His soloq win rate is lower than either Sona or Janna, so that's something right there. I think Thresh would be fine if they increased his mana costs, maybe reduced/removed the shield on his lantern. | ||
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Juicyfruit
Canada5484 Posts
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iCanada
Canada10660 Posts
On April 22 2013 08:02 wei2coolman wrote: Too much "how can riot fix this?", and not enough "how do we play against this?" I asked how do we play against this probably a hundred times... I didn't get an answer. I got "abuse his cooldowns" and "Push the wave and try to abuse range" which aren't really applicable because you can't do them unless your jungler is kicking the other junglers teeth in. | ||
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
I know "compare the entire kit not a single skill" but the two skills are fundamentally relatively similar and both are champion-defining. I feel one of the problems with Thresh is that because he's a support, it really falls onto the other support to do something about it, and even if he misses a hook, he autoattacks like a Powerchord-ready Sona (The upcoming Q/E autoattack passive switchover will mess with this some. He'll have to pick between a longer window to abuse hook cooldown, or losing damage.) | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On April 22 2013 08:02 MoonBear wrote: Even if kits are very problematic, number tweaks are always a possible solution. For instance, Blitzcrank was once the #1 target of hate but has now fallen off. Vlad dropped off after S1 from number changes. The same goes for many other champions. It doesn't always have to be kit or mechanic changes. While Thresh is powerful, his kit is still balance-able by forcing a trade off somewhere else in return for his powerful skills. (Mana costs? Base stats? Move Speed? Many ways to approach this problem.) Blitz's early laning, if you don't hit at least 50% of your hooks, is so bad that you can lose the game before he becomes ridiculous. That said, he has an abusive lvl 1, plus if you get past laning with him its still super ridiculous. He really is just a shell of a character though in lane, its really unsatisfying to play blitz now. So yea, anyone is "balanceable" if you crush him into subparness. Heck, they did it with Rengar. | ||
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
On April 22 2013 08:02 wei2coolman wrote: Too much "how can riot fix this?", and not enough "how do we play against this?" And right now the general consensus is "hug tower and hope he doesn't dive", "get a jungler to camp you", or "ban him". That's not really good. | ||
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Juicyfruit
Canada5484 Posts
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MoonBear
Straight outta Johto18973 Posts
On April 22 2013 08:09 cLutZ wrote: Blitz's early laning, if you don't hit at least 50% of your hooks, is so bad that you can lose the game before he becomes ridiculous. That said, he has an abusive lvl 1, plus if you get past laning with him its still super ridiculous. He really is just a shell of a character though in lane, its really unsatisfying to play blitz now. So yea, anyone is "balanceable" if you crush him into subparness. Heck, they did it with Rengar. I am of the opinion that if there's a number level where a champion is unplayable and a level where a champion is must pick/ban, then there must also be something in the middle that works for everyone. It's just finding that middle ground. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On April 22 2013 08:04 iCanada wrote: I asked how do we play against this probably a hundred times... I didn't get an answer. I got "abuse his cooldowns" and "Push the wave and try to abuse range" which aren't really applicable because you can't do them unless your jungler is kicking the other junglers teeth in. The answer that is pretty much implicit (yet nobody wants to hear it) is just "play better than the other team". Everyone is going to make small errors. Positioning errors, mana management errors, skill mis-usage, etc. You just have to make less of them than the Thresh player and punish him when he makes those mistakes. It's not a very satisfying answer, but it's fundamentally how you deal with OP things. A bad Thresh player isn't going to outplay a vastly better player on a weaker support. You just have to be vastly better. The skill disparity between you and the Thresh player has to be higher than what the "OP-ness" of the champion makes up for. I don't know why anyone with any background in BW or SC2 should expect a different answer than this, though. | ||
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
On April 22 2013 08:17 MoonBear wrote: I am of the opinion that if there's a number level where a champion is unplayable and a level where a champion is must pick/ban, then there must also be something in the middle that works for everyone. It's just finding that middle ground. Somewhat. Look at Leona, she does about 0 damage (by herself), but has enough CC and innate tankiness that she makes it work. Same for Janna, without stacking AP she does no damage but is still good with peels and shields. If Thresh is to have almost as much CC as them (2 slows, a displacement, and a stun), he shouldn't have as high of damage. Or have the damage, and not the tankiness. Or at least be melee. All of it together is a bit too much. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
He isn't really good at defending unless you try to attack his duo under their tower or rely on melee (like grabbing a Taric before he can W your carry after a stun) which usually doesn't bode well for me (hooking an Alistar, even to protect your carry, spells bad news for Blitz). If he can't take a beating, Blitz is only stronger at all-ins than Leona in that bringing the target next to your teammates makes it easier for them to follow-up compared to Leona hitting E (doesn't mean he's inferior in every way, I'm talking about laning here) and his range is better at controlling bushes, where they can't have minions to protect them (225 range on Leona's E). I don't think it's fair to compare them, Blitz has a low average outcome in lane, it's just that his sieging and best outcome in general are so good that associated with the popularity of squishy supports (mainly Zyra and Lulu, a bit less Sona) when he gained back his own it makes people concentrate on that. Kinda how everyone says Skarner is garbage because they concentrate on the worst outcome (poking team with slows that manages to flash your flash ult). ^ Leona puts opponents at 50-65% HP by herself in one combo at level 5+, provided she unloads on a squishy. Can't really say she doesn't have damage, she has more than Sona for example, it's just on a much higher cooldown and is all-in (but it gets even higher if an ally helps you). | ||
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Zess
Adun Toridas!9144 Posts
On April 22 2013 08:04 iCanada wrote: I asked how do we play against this probably a hundred times... I didn't get an answer. I got "abuse his cooldowns" and "Push the wave and try to abuse range" which aren't really applicable because you can't do them unless your jungler is kicking the other junglers teeth in. Play Thresh yourself, pwn all the noobs with your OP champ, collect Diamond I elo. | ||
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
they try to take bot inhib, but get aced enemy team is killing their nexus, they respawn and kill them, nexus had literally 1 hp. they win the game, lmao | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On April 22 2013 08:23 Alaric wrote: Kinda how everyone says Skarner is garbage because they concentrate on the worst outcome (poking team with slows that manages to flash your flash ult). imo skarner is garbage because they removed the "bug" of not being able to flash out of his ult. personally i think that fix hurt him a lot more than people think. | ||
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Zergneedsfood
United States10671 Posts
On April 22 2013 08:03 emperorchampion wrote: I don't think anyone is going to deny that Thresh is very powerful (probably more so in competitive play, but anyhow...), but I think you're blowing it out of proportion. His soloq win rate is lower than either Sona or Janna, so that's something right there. I think Thresh would be fine if they increased his mana costs, maybe reduced/removed the shield on his lantern. It's because all the fucksuck I don't want to support players are probably choosing Thresh since he's the most aggressive one after Blitz is banned. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On April 22 2013 08:17 MoonBear wrote: I am of the opinion that if there's a number level where a champion is unplayable and a level where a champion is must pick/ban, then there must also be something in the middle that works for everyone. It's just finding that middle ground. While I agree in theory, I disagree that it is an ideal solution in a large number of cases. That's because LoL forces people to work around the fog of war, a lot. First, there are two levels of this fog because picks/bans a sort of fog of war of its own. Then you have the lvl 1 vision battle before people settle in, and the fog wherein people are settling in. This is what I would quintessentially call "The Eve Problem". The problem asks: How much weaker does Eve have to be than other champions in order to be balanced? Well the answer is 50 gold (the difference between a green and pick ward) every 3 minutes, for every pathway you normally would have warded + 125 gold for wherever you normally would have vision of your opponent and said vision is important to have (i.e. often a Karthus needed to put a pink lane ward down against an Eve (before her nerfs) if he ever extended to basically a Teemo past the middle of river). When you start to account for all that, you realize that Eve needs to be ridiculously weak to be balanced. So then we have a champ that pretty has all her power invested in one thing (stealth/hook) and if that gets shut down you are kinda worthless. It makes the effort of balancing greater than the reward for uniqueness. | ||
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iCanada
Canada10660 Posts
On April 22 2013 08:19 TheYango wrote: The answer that is pretty much implicit (yet nobody wants to hear it) is just "play better than the other team". Everyone is going to make small errors. Positioning errors, mana management errors, skill mis-usage, etc. You just have to make less of them than the Thresh player and punish him when he makes those mistakes. It's not a very satisfying answer, but it's fundamentally how you deal with OP things. A bad Thresh player isn't going to outplay a vastly better player on a weaker support. You just have to be vastly better. The skill disparity between you and the Thresh player has to be higher than what the "OP-ness" of the champion makes up for. I don't know why anyone with any background in BW or SC2 should expect a different answer than this, though. I know that some of my posts came off as pretty heavy handed QQ, but if you go back to my initial one, it was very much asking the best way to play against Thresh. If that is the answer then I'm okay with that, I was just trying see if there was something I was missing or if that was actually the answer. Probably ten people told me he "not that bad" but no one gave legitimate weaknesses. I don't play as much as I used to, alas uni has tied up much of my "get mechanically better" time and so my get better at league time usually done through more strategical means. I'm not the kind of player that blames losing on a champion being OP. Too many other factors, and usually the guy playing the OP champ sucks at him because the champion never up in the first place. I apologize for coming off like I was just crying and wanting riot to fix things. | ||
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