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United States23745 Posts
On April 22 2013 05:22 Navi wrote:
rhux is much more talented than elementz. he played in one major LAN event and elementz took a break, i remember not being super impressed (a few getting caught out etc) but rhux still gave me a probably overall more solid feel than elementz. and this is after only a week or two of practicing support on solo queue.
elementz was one of the first pros to be picked up in league, its not surprising that there are outstanding talents that are superior to the "old pros". if anything its surprising HOW MANY of them are still around considering there are plenty of talents out there that can give them a run for their money.
Yeah, Rhux still has a lot of adjusting to do simply because his main role is Top. Aphro has been improving as a Support, but it takes a while. After IPL5 I wanted them to give Rhux more of a chance so as a Curse fan I'm totally okay with this decision.
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On April 22 2013 05:40 Serelitz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2013 05:00 iCanada wrote:On April 22 2013 04:32 thenexusp wrote:On April 22 2013 03:11 SnK-Arcbound wrote:
Thresh changes when he needs nerfs. Still always going to be banned until he's nerfed. Especially his passive. Unless you are getting completely zoned out of your lane, in which case you're losing anyways, he gets more free armor then any champion gets at equivilent levels. I had one thresh at 30 minutes with 80 free armor and ap. That's 3000g worth of stats from his passive. And almost all of it was front loaded in his levels, obviously once teamfights start you won't be picking up hardly any souls. It's not actually that much free stats, once you take into account his zero armor scaling per level and his mediocre AP scaling. Actually, yeah, yeah it is that much free stats. Consider he gets free AD too from his souls with his Q passive. It is actually pretty absurd because thats basically 1AD per soul because even if he doesn't get the AD% bonus from it hew always gets the magic damage from collecting a soul. That means basically his free stats is more like 6000g if he has +80 Armor, AP, and AD. I think thresh is ridiculous. He just has everything. Absolutely everything. Why play Blitz when Thresh has Identical CC, more damage, more utility. Why play Janna when Thresh has more damage. Why play lulu when Thresh has hard CC, and better initiation/disengaging skills. Its not even like Thresh has everything but other supports outshine him in certain aspects. Literally the dude has everything and he outshines everyone else with it. No champ in the game has such strong gank assist. No other champ in the game gets all his teammates a get out of jail free card. No other champ in the game gets that much free damage and tankiness. Dudes winrates are off the charts. Aside from his first week of play where he posted low numbers, his winrate been like +55% since forever. I agree that Thresh is ridiculously broken but IIRC he doesn't get free AD from his passive, only free AP and free armour.
It's technically free AD in the sense that the # of souls you collect determines how much damage your Q passive does. His Q passive gives all his auto attacks bonus damage based on the # of souls you have + % total AD, and the % total AD part scales with the amount of time since your last auto.
Although tbh, Thresh's passive is not really the reason why he's so strong. Imo, the "free stats" portion of his skillset is the least problematic part of his whole kit. Thresh doesn't break even with other champs' base armor levels until he gets 49 souls, and doesn't start to surpass other champs' base armor until he gets 94 souls. In pro games, most Thresh players usually end the game with around 80~100 souls, which puts him in the higher end of base armor levels, but it's nothing absurd. To put it in perspective, it takes Thresh 146 souls to reach Taric-levels of tankiness.
Thresh is insanely strong because of the sheer amount of utility on him. It's kind of like another case of Rengar where his kit just does so damn much. Thresh is insane because he punishes bad positioning on the enemy team, while also gives teammates an out when they position badly. His lantern also allows for some insane plays too. Thresh ult is basically a one-way J4 ulti that does significant early on. His E is a very strong peeling tool, as well.
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In order to fix Thresh you must:
A.) Completely gut lantern. MASSIVELY reduce its range and make it tether if Thresh moves too far away. Something like 400 cast range, 600 tether range (maybe less).
B.) Greatly reduce the range and duration of hook. Fix the bug that allows you to cast and then flash to ignore the windup.
C.) Greatly nerf the amount of free stats from his passive and place a hard, level-based cap on how much you can get.
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I'd rather they remove the shield part of the lantern. The whole pull away is unique and cool.
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United States23745 Posts
On April 22 2013 06:02 Craton wrote:
In order to fix Thresh you must:
A.) Completely gut lantern. MASSIVELY reduce its range and make it tether if Thresh moves too far away. Something like 400 cast range, 600 tether range (maybe less).
B.) Greatly reduce the range and duration of hook. Fix the bug that allows you to cast and then flash to ignore the windup.
C.) Greatly nerf the amount of free stats from his passive and place a hard, level-based cap on how much you can get.
Do you think he would still be worth picking if all those nerfs went through? While I'm okay with nerfs, I knew we all hate it when Riot goes too hard with the nerfs and completely guts a champion. I think looking at lantern is a good place to start.
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Or an even better idea would be to make other supports not suck so much so they can compare?That'd be a lot cooler.
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On April 22 2013 05:43 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2013 05:40 Serelitz wrote:On April 22 2013 05:00 iCanada wrote:On April 22 2013 04:32 thenexusp wrote:On April 22 2013 03:11 SnK-Arcbound wrote:
Thresh changes when he needs nerfs. Still always going to be banned until he's nerfed. Especially his passive. Unless you are getting completely zoned out of your lane, in which case you're losing anyways, he gets more free armor then any champion gets at equivilent levels. I had one thresh at 30 minutes with 80 free armor and ap. That's 3000g worth of stats from his passive. And almost all of it was front loaded in his levels, obviously once teamfights start you won't be picking up hardly any souls. It's not actually that much free stats, once you take into account his zero armor scaling per level and his mediocre AP scaling. Actually, yeah, yeah it is that much free stats. Consider he gets free AD too from his souls with his Q passive. It is actually pretty absurd because thats basically 1AD per soul because even if he doesn't get the AD% bonus from it hew always gets the magic damage from collecting a soul. That means basically his free stats is more like 6000g if he has +80 Armor, AP, and AD. I think thresh is ridiculous. He just has everything. Absolutely everything. Why play Blitz when Thresh has Identical CC, more damage, more utility. Why play Janna when Thresh has more damage. Why play lulu when Thresh has hard CC, and better initiation/disengaging skills. Its not even like Thresh has everything but other supports outshine him in certain aspects. Literally the dude has everything and he outshines everyone else with it. No champ in the game has such strong gank assist. No other champ in the game gets all his teammates a get out of jail free card. No other champ in the game gets that much free damage and tankiness. Dudes winrates are off the charts. Aside from his first week of play where he posted low numbers, his winrate been like +55% since forever. I agree that Thresh is ridiculously broken but IIRC he doesn't get free AD from his passive, only free AP and free armour/MR. His Q passive is that for every soul he gets, his autos do 1 magic damage. Not only that, buit on tip of that every five seconds he gains a +AD % multiplier when he not attacking. It pretty much AD.
There is a huge difference between getting 1 magic damage on a hit and getting 1 AD due to scaling. Saying it's just like AD is a needless exaggeration that people like to do when they see something OP but which in the end paints an inaccurate picture of what's really going on. IMO.
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United States23745 Posts
On April 22 2013 06:11 nafta wrote:
Or an even better idea would be to make other supports not suck so much so they can compare?That'd be a lot cooler.
Why wish for this when we know it isn't going to happen? Riot has proven time and time again they don't agree with the "OP balancing OP" philosophy.
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On April 22 2013 06:14 onlywonderboy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2013 06:11 nafta wrote:
Or an even better idea would be to make other supports not suck so much so they can compare?That'd be a lot cooler. Why wish for this when we know it isn't going to happen? Riot has proven time and time again they don't agree with the "OP balancing OP" philosophy.
But Thresh isn't op'd, he's not ban worthy yet. He's not quite like earlier blitzcrank.
He's just pick worthy right now.
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^Thresh winrate has been continually on the rise in solo Q, closing in on 55% now. Was 60%+ for last 2 weeks. Picked or banned in most pro games as well. I think he's quite a bit beyond just 'pick status'.
On April 22 2013 06:14 onlywonderboy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2013 06:11 nafta wrote:
Or an even better idea would be to make other supports not suck so much so they can compare?That'd be a lot cooler. Why wish for this when we know it isn't going to happen? Riot has proven time and time again they don't agree with the "OP balancing OP" philosophy.
Don't forget that it's a lot more effort to rebalance everything around 1 or 2 top champs than it is to bring them down to the level of 5 other sub-top supports.
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On April 22 2013 06:02 Craton wrote:
In order to fix Thresh you must:
A.) Completely gut lantern. MASSIVELY reduce its range and make it tether if Thresh moves too far away. Something like 400 cast range, 600 tether range (maybe less).
B.) Greatly reduce the range and duration of hook. Fix the bug that allows you to cast and then flash to ignore the windup.
C.) Greatly nerf the amount of free stats from his passive and place a hard, level-based cap on how much you can get.
A. Cut the cast range by over half, then gut the tether range by almost 3 times? 400 cast range and 600 tether range is absolutely pathetic; that's less than an AD carry's auto attack range. Imo, lantern nerf should just remove or gut the shielding portion. Range could be decreased but not by the absurd amounts you suggest.
B. Iunno bout the bug, but I do agree that the range+duration of the hook is a bit ridiculous. The hook is currently longer range than Blitz's grab which I find kinda depressing. Additionally, the hook basically acts as a 1.5 second stun, which is also a bit much.
C. I honestly don't believe his passive to be problematic at all. He doesn't gain armor per level and the passive also has a pretty aggressive diminishing returns built in. It takes him 149 souls to reach Taric-levels of tankiness, which is almost never reached in pro games. The EG v. Fnatic game that just ended, Krepo ended the game with ~110 souls, which really isn't that absurd considering how he doesn't gain armor/level at all. I guess you could increase the rate of diminishing returns on his passive, but tbh his passive isn't a big issue.
Edit: Apparently Thresh gets a new passive called Soul Gluttony whenever he reaches 255 souls which resets the diminishing returns on his passive. Kinda interesting but mostly irrelevant since you're never going to get 255+ souls in a real game.
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United States23745 Posts
On April 22 2013 06:16 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2013 06:14 onlywonderboy wrote:On April 22 2013 06:11 nafta wrote:
Or an even better idea would be to make other supports not suck so much so they can compare?That'd be a lot cooler. Why wish for this when we know it isn't going to happen? Riot has proven time and time again they don't agree with the "OP balancing OP" philosophy. But Thresh isn't op'd, he's not ban worthy yet. He's not quite like earlier blitzcrank. He's just pick worthy right now.
Whether or not Thresh is OP is up for debate, but he is still insanely strong. He's picked/banned in OGN all of the time. Maybe not first pick status, but easily second pick if not banned.
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On April 22 2013 06:02 Craton wrote:
In order to fix Thresh you must:
A.) Completely gut lantern. MASSIVELY reduce its range and make it tether if Thresh moves too far away. Something like 400 cast range, 600 tether range (maybe less).
B.) Greatly reduce the range and duration of hook. Fix the bug that allows you to cast and then flash to ignore the windup.
C.) Greatly nerf the amount of free stats from his passive and place a hard, level-based cap on how much you can get.
IMO, make Lantern his Ultimate. Increase shield slightly and give ally that click lantern get AD buff, make CD like 40~ second.
Then move the passive portion of his Q to his W, but make it scale with levels (Say 20/30/40/50/60+1/2 souls) Then give it an active that breaks CC on him (think GP W) except when he use he lose on hit damage.
And I think hook needs nerf too. Like blitz, except you stunned for three times as long. I think added utility of the spell should either mean less damage or less range.
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Other than lulu thresh is the only support that is just really strong AND rewards good players a lot.Those 2 also happen to be the best 2 supports.Riot should take note.If they touch nami mana costs and maybe do some changes to janna/sona we'd have a healthy support pool and no nerfs to everything that isn't bad are needed.
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Thresh is definitely OP. His kit just does too much. I'm just wary of Riot's tendency to over nerf champions.
I'd much rather they just buff other supports, but their balancing history suggests otherwise.
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On April 22 2013 06:19 onlywonderboy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2013 06:16 wei2coolman wrote:On April 22 2013 06:14 onlywonderboy wrote:On April 22 2013 06:11 nafta wrote:
Or an even better idea would be to make other supports not suck so much so they can compare?That'd be a lot cooler. Why wish for this when we know it isn't going to happen? Riot has proven time and time again they don't agree with the "OP balancing OP" philosophy. But Thresh isn't op'd, he's not ban worthy yet. He's not quite like earlier blitzcrank. He's just pick worthy right now. Whether or not Thresh is OP is up for debate, but he is still insanely strong. He's picked/banned in OGN all of the time. Maybe not first pick status, but easily second pick if not banned.
Bans and picks come and go. Nerfs are forever as Riot rarely ever rebuffs (except in the case of Eve and Shen).
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United States23745 Posts
Thresh hook and Blitz hook are two different skills. The CD could probably stand to be increased, but the long range is to make up for the wind-up. If it was shorter than Blitz hook and had the wind-up it would feel almost useless
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On April 22 2013 06:11 phyvo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2013 05:43 iCanada wrote:On April 22 2013 05:40 Serelitz wrote:On April 22 2013 05:00 iCanada wrote:On April 22 2013 04:32 thenexusp wrote:On April 22 2013 03:11 SnK-Arcbound wrote:
Thresh changes when he needs nerfs. Still always going to be banned until he's nerfed. Especially his passive. Unless you are getting completely zoned out of your lane, in which case you're losing anyways, he gets more free armor then any champion gets at equivilent levels. I had one thresh at 30 minutes with 80 free armor and ap. That's 3000g worth of stats from his passive. And almost all of it was front loaded in his levels, obviously once teamfights start you won't be picking up hardly any souls. It's not actually that much free stats, once you take into account his zero armor scaling per level and his mediocre AP scaling. Actually, yeah, yeah it is that much free stats. Consider he gets free AD too from his souls with his Q passive. It is actually pretty absurd because thats basically 1AD per soul because even if he doesn't get the AD% bonus from it hew always gets the magic damage from collecting a soul. That means basically his free stats is more like 6000g if he has +80 Armor, AP, and AD. I think thresh is ridiculous. He just has everything. Absolutely everything. Why play Blitz when Thresh has Identical CC, more damage, more utility. Why play Janna when Thresh has more damage. Why play lulu when Thresh has hard CC, and better initiation/disengaging skills. Its not even like Thresh has everything but other supports outshine him in certain aspects. Literally the dude has everything and he outshines everyone else with it. No champ in the game has such strong gank assist. No other champ in the game gets all his teammates a get out of jail free card. No other champ in the game gets that much free damage and tankiness. Dudes winrates are off the charts. Aside from his first week of play where he posted low numbers, his winrate been like +55% since forever. I agree that Thresh is ridiculously broken but IIRC he doesn't get free AD from his passive, only free AP and free armour/MR. His Q passive is that for every soul he gets, his autos do 1 magic damage. Not only that, buit on tip of that every five seconds he gains a +AD % multiplier when he not attacking. It pretty much AD. There is a huge difference between getting 1 magic damage on a hit and getting 1 AD due to scaling. Saying it's just like AD is a needless exaggeration that people like to do when they see something OP but which in the end paints an inaccurate picture of what's really going on. IMO.
You're right, it isn't quite the same, but considering thresh never buys late game items the difference not that big.
The thing is, is I dont see how someone can not say he OP. How do I play against thresh aside from hope the enemy thresh player is bad? I can't be aggressive because his early game pretty strong, he has mad CC, and lantern ganks are ridiculous. I can't not be aggressive because his passive means his lane (AD+Support, not necessarily AD) is going to outscale mine if the lane is a farm fest.
Wut do?
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Ok how are you supposed to lane against draven? It doesn't matter what support I play I just always get stomped vs him. If you play poke he will just outpoke you because his auto attacks deal three times more damage than any of your spells, and if you play engage he will just kill you because he deals three times more damage than you ad. I have no clue what to do
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Lulu and Zyra do well against him imo. Impair his movement to fuck his axes + skillshots work well with his predictable positioning.
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EPT
