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I just wanted in on the discussion. Also how is it not theorycrafting without evidence/first hand experiences?
I heavily disagree with you that changing Elementz for Patoy would not change much, either you're not able to spot individual skill in team games or you just don't realize the impact one skillshot or one clutch shield or whatever can have on a teamfight, not to mention a whole game.
Edit: Obviously the difference between Patoy and Elementz is much more than one skillshot. It's lane pressure (really really important), teamfighting and Patoy is regularly making some good plays while it's a rarity to see Elementz do anything of that sort.
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Can someone teach me about ganking from mid? -.- I feel like every time enemy mid ganks and I call miss, they somehow get kills anyway even if they walk past wards etc. So it should be just as easy for me as well, right? Still, whenever I go for ganks, I seem to run into junglers in the brushes or the enemy team just runs away well before I arrive or my own mid and their jungle pincer me or... It seems like I can only "gank" if like, the enemy botlane is diving my botlane and I catch them like that. What's the secret?
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On April 22 2013 00:02 Shikyo wrote:
Can someone teach me about ganking from mid? -.- I feel like every time enemy mid ganks and I call miss, they somehow get kills anyway even if they walk past wards etc. So it should be just as easy for me as well, right? Still, whenever I go for ganks, I seem to run into junglers in the brushes or the enemy team just runs away well before I arrive or my own mid and their jungle pincer me or... It seems like I can only "gank" if like, the enemy botlane is diving my botlane and I catch them like that. What's the secret?
The secret is to force a flash, then comeback 1 minute later. It's even easier if your midlaner can burn the flash early on; so you only have to do it once.
Also a nice path to take is to come from their jungle next to the wall/ridge.
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On April 22 2013 00:02 Shikyo wrote:
Can someone teach me about ganking from mid? -.- I feel like every time enemy mid ganks and I call miss, they somehow get kills anyway even if they walk past wards etc. So it should be just as easy for me as well, right? Still, whenever I go for ganks, I seem to run into junglers in the brushes or the enemy team just runs away well before I arrive or my own mid and their jungle pincer me or... It seems like I can only "gank" if like, the enemy botlane is diving my botlane and I catch them like that. What's the secret?
The secret is to wait for your bot to look like they're an easy all-in. Their bot will all-in thinking it's a double kill, one of your guys will die (one will flash out low and all), and you'll get a cleanup double kill. Just be watching the lanes. Same thing on top too. Just look for when people will fight, and get there when they will. They will think "I'm soooo good, I can kill and get away!". Play their ego.
Also, the other team diving is a sure way to pick up kills. You can completely ruin their dives too which leads to their tower and dragon.
Lastly, just clear minions and leave sight. If you keep doing that, the other laner will stop calling mia so quickly thinking you just doing your disappearing act.
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On April 21 2013 23:58 nafta wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2013 23:55 WhiteDog wrote:On April 21 2013 23:14 EquilasH wrote:On April 21 2013 23:07 Zergneedsfood wrote:On April 21 2013 23:05 EquilasH wrote:
How is this even a discussion? Obviously individual player's skill matter a lot. It doesn't matter that you have really good teamwork if everyone on the team is worse individually against a team that is somewhat working together. Iono mang. That's a pretty bold statement to make. Well, from my own experience when I played with a team of IRL friends who worked really well together (everyone blindly listened to me) we were beating some teams that were slightly better than us individually. But the second we faced new teams without much teamwork and everyone except me were getting outclassed individually we crumbled 80% of the time (keep in mind this is only 4 players getting outclassed and not a full team). Similarly in pre-season 3 I joined a team and the first games we had were in a go4lol (we were all diamond in s2), we barely spoke at all in Teamspeak and we were beating teams with mixed plat/diamonds that had been together for months. We eventually finished 2nd losing only to a full diamond team that had played together for a long time. Any other high Elo player I've spoken to have pretty much had the same experiences with new teams vs senior teams of lower skilled players. Obviously this is just my own experiences but at least it's enough for me to form an opinion that can't really be changed by WhiteDog's theorycrafting. I wasn't theorycrafting, I was assuming that at the highest level of play, only a few players had a real individual impact on the game individually. And it's precisely the case for NA, where NO player stands out. The highest KDA is a conservative player that create nothing. Ok I can agree that Bjergsen and some specific player are different, but I don't agree that changing elementz with say patoy will change much for curse.* When you look at them, you clearly see there are some problem coming from saintvicious for exemple. Also I don't see why some people don't like that two people are disagreeing in a forum, shit happen. Actually it will change a lot.If you are confident your lanes will play as you expect them to it changes a lot attitude and just mindset wise.Saying it wouldn't make a difference is just wrong.Especially svicious seems affected by his teammates' play A LOT.
Yes, in term of mind set maybe.
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Any jungler is affected a lot by his teammates, its just he is more vocal than other people.
The more your laner is losing the harder it is to gank and get kills and easier it is to get counterganked
The reason NA players don't stand out that much is not because they are so good that nobody can get a higher level to carry a game its just that none of them are way better than anyone else. That doesn't mean if you take say all of TSM each one of those players is better than their counterparty in any of the bottom 4 LCS and having 5 players all slightly better than the opponents is just as good as having 1 player much better in terms of how easily you win.
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On April 22 2013 00:28 Slayer91 wrote:
Any jungler is affected a lot by his teammates, its just he is more vocal than other people.
The more your laner is losing the harder it is to gank and get kills and easier it is to get counterganked
Yes but I had more in mind that if bot does dumb shit he starts doing really dumb stuff as well.
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Thanks for the help, I'll make sure to look for opportunities more carefully
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Also, obviously vision is the most important in both roaming yourself as well as preventing the enemy mid from roaming. If I'm playing mid I pretty much buy 2 wards every time I go back.
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On April 22 2013 00:26 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2013 23:58 nafta wrote:On April 21 2013 23:55 WhiteDog wrote:On April 21 2013 23:14 EquilasH wrote:On April 21 2013 23:07 Zergneedsfood wrote:On April 21 2013 23:05 EquilasH wrote:
How is this even a discussion? Obviously individual player's skill matter a lot. It doesn't matter that you have really good teamwork if everyone on the team is worse individually against a team that is somewhat working together. Iono mang. That's a pretty bold statement to make. Well, from my own experience when I played with a team of IRL friends who worked really well together (everyone blindly listened to me) we were beating some teams that were slightly better than us individually. But the second we faced new teams without much teamwork and everyone except me were getting outclassed individually we crumbled 80% of the time (keep in mind this is only 4 players getting outclassed and not a full team). Similarly in pre-season 3 I joined a team and the first games we had were in a go4lol (we were all diamond in s2), we barely spoke at all in Teamspeak and we were beating teams with mixed plat/diamonds that had been together for months. We eventually finished 2nd losing only to a full diamond team that had played together for a long time. Any other high Elo player I've spoken to have pretty much had the same experiences with new teams vs senior teams of lower skilled players. Obviously this is just my own experiences but at least it's enough for me to form an opinion that can't really be changed by WhiteDog's theorycrafting. I wasn't theorycrafting, I was assuming that at the highest level of play, only a few players had a real individual impact on the game individually. And it's precisely the case for NA, where NO player stands out. The highest KDA is a conservative player that create nothing. Ok I can agree that Bjergsen and some specific player are different, but I don't agree that changing elementz with say patoy will change much for curse.* When you look at them, you clearly see there are some problem coming from saintvicious for exemple. Also I don't see why some people don't like that two people are disagreeing in a forum, shit happen. Actually it will change a lot.If you are confident your lanes will play as you expect them to it changes a lot attitude and just mindset wise.Saying it wouldn't make a difference is just wrong.Especially svicious seems affected by his teammates' play A LOT. Yes, in term of mind set maybe.
Not even that. If you jungling and all your lanes even/winning you can just focus on rallying the troops and taking map objectives. However, if one of your lanes is behind you need to kind of stop the bleeding. Means you can't farm as much, means you need to be much more visible to the enemy team.
Now, lets repeat that last sentence.... You can't farm as much. When saint playing well dude farms like a mother fucker.
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Though Saint farms really well and often takes lane farm; he doesn't exert mappressure when he does it. His split pushing pressure is really weak; he doesn't like going pass river when grabbing farm. I'm not sure if that's how Curse like to play out post-lane phase, or Saint not comfortable splitpushing hard.
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So I realised my champ pool probably holds me back top, not that I'd suddenly become a beast if I made changes, but as in it makes my progress slower. With mainly champs like Jax, Irelia, Wukong, Xin, and the odd Pantheon/Nunu/Udyr (I gave up on Olaf after the Q nerfs and the popularity of ranged tops), I have a reoccuring pattern of weak early, good scaling, reliance on farm and lack of ranged harass/cs-ing, which made me take a habit of running 9-21 masteries, defensive quints and letting the lane push toward my tower to try and freeze it, giving up on cs if a stronger opponent (Renekton, Riven, Kayle) threatens me early, and to play conservatively/passively until I reach a sweet spot where I start fighting back, abusing the scaling on said champs.
Which in turn meant that any death and badly timed recall would cost me a metric ton of cs and exp, and in general a lane easily snowballing on me if misplaying (or stuff like camped/getting dove by the jungler) against an strong early game champ, with zoning a bane for my impact on the game.
Then I decided to try and push the lane early on to see if it'd make my opponent more wary of harassing me (after a Kayle just pressed E, pushed me to tower then harassed), which seemed counter-intuitive to me because:
- the enemy jungler may come and I don't want to lose cs because of it, or worse lose exp/have to back because I want to hit key levels on those champs and then get a core item/component asap.
- I don't have ranged cs-ing on my main champs (like Pantheon/Olaf/Nunu have) so if I fuck up my wave control I'll lose cs while under the enemy tower (eg. ranged minions vs ranged minions).
- If it isn't enough to make me win a potential trade/fight, then the pushing wave will allow the opposing champ to zone me and it'll be even worse than losing cs to my tower but still getting exp.
Turns out they're generally afraid so far, and even in theorical bad match-ups I'm managing to do well when pressuring woth wards up against ganks, and I'm not camped as often as I thought I would/should be.
On one hand I'm only Silver I so it's probably my opponents being bad and instinctively cowering instead of realising they can still beat me, and if I rely on that I'll get smashed one of those days (beating a Gold IV Yorick as Jax pre-6 still felt good). On the other I'd probably have thought of that way earlier if I'd kept playing Olaf against melees, or stuck with Pantheon, eg. kept a diversified champ pool. >_>
TL;DR my common sense recently kicked in for its semestrial quota, and improving at the game actually makes you feel sad when the amount of progress only underlines how bad you are. :<
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Quick heads up, literally everyone forgot how to play against a Maokai.
Last five games in a row I just ran around killing things. Lol.
One time a team three man dived me when I just hit level six, just flat out killed all three with a max level R, level three E, and the under the tower stun. 300 E damage, 300 R damage, 70 Q damage, 80 W damage (750 Damage at level 6 no AP), and then the stun and 20% damage reduction. Those numbers are huge and without intermittent AA's.
I been building him with same pen build you would do on Amumu. I dunno whether it good or not, because like last five games just been total rofl stomps.
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Thresh changes when he needs nerfs. Still always going to be banned until he's nerfed. Especially his passive. Unless you are getting completely zoned out of your lane, in which case you're losing anyways, he gets more free armor then any champion gets at equivilent levels. I had one thresh at 30 minutes with 80 free armor and ap. That's 3000g worth of stats from his passive. And almost all of it was front loaded in his levels, obviously once teamfights start you won't be picking up hardly any souls.
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It's okay, Karma carried me to Plat V from Gold II. She's ridiculously good in lane swaps, or with an AD who is willing to let you take some CS. Mid is really fun as well, though I prefer having a poke/AP support like Lux/Zyra/Lulu to compensate for the lower overall magic damage.
Give it a week or two and I'll be higher ranked than Elementz huehuehue
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United States23745 Posts
On April 22 2013 00:00 EquilasH wrote:
I just wanted in on the discussion. Also how is it not theorycrafting without evidence/first hand experiences?
I heavily disagree with you that changing Elementz for Patoy would not change much, either you're not able to spot individual skill in team games or you just don't realize the impact one skillshot or one clutch shield or whatever can have on a teamfight, not to mention a whole game.
Edit: Obviously the difference between Patoy and Elementz is much more than one skillshot. It's lane pressure (really really important), teamfighting and Patoy is regularly making some good plays while it's a rarity to see Elementz do anything of that sort.
I'd take Patoy over Elementz. His Zyra ults against Curse were so good they made me cry ;_;
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Anyone would. That's the point. The skill differential between the two is tremendous which is what WhiteDog fails to see.
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On April 22 2013 02:41 Alaric wrote:
TL;DR my common sense recently kicked in for its semestrial quota, and improving at the game actually makes you feel sad when the amount of progress only underlines how bad you are. :<
Yeah, creep advantage is so huge now because you can't get -4 minion damage reduction, which means whoever has more minions can generally fight with impunity.
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EPT
