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No we don't agree on anything I think most of the reasons that a team does better is that the players are better which leads to better teamwork (because good players are better at working with the team in fights)
team communication and shot calling is something that should be there but its only good on the basis of good players. Find me a team that was successful without really good players. Most people would point to the asian teams but thats just because we don't know their players we just assume they have godlike teamwork or something but they're just a bunch of good players and they recruit from the top of solo queue when they need to replace someone.
You shouldn't put the pros on a pedestal. Just because you can't precieve individual skill when you're watching a game doesn't mean its not there. Once I had to play AD and I almost never play ad like <1% of my games and I had a pretty good leona support but cait/leona isn't that good a lane. Anyway I was against yellowpetes kog maw and we actually killed him a couple times in lane until my dumb ass got ganked a few times so we ended up going even but when you see yellowpete on the TV you expect him to be really good but when you play he's just a standard solid AD player.
Meanwhile if you play against bjergsen or someone he shitstomps your entire team and you if you're in lane and you're just like fuck
Anyway, I don't know why people would be uncomfortable with this discussion most of what gets said around general is just random 1-2-3 liners and nothing interesting ever gets said until yango shows up whats the fuss about
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Just saw the incoming karma buffs.
Lolwut? Thanks for the freelo riot.
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On April 21 2013 22:08 jcarlsoniv wrote:
Just saw the incoming karma buffs.
Lolwut? Thanks for the freelo riot.
I feel like every week someone says freelo, but if that was the case erryone would be diamond already.
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On April 21 2013 22:08 jcarlsoniv wrote:
Just saw the incoming karma buffs.
Lolwut? Thanks for the freelo riot.
Watch out. You had better convince Riot that Karma's good now or they'll keep buffing her until she's actually OP -> she becomes FOTW -> everyone knows how to play vs her properly and she gets nerfed.
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On April 21 2013 22:08 jcarlsoniv wrote:
Just saw the incoming karma buffs.
Lolwut? Thanks for the freelo riot.
Care to send me the links to those buffs information sir soniv?
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How is this even a discussion? Obviously individual player's skill matter a lot. It doesn't matter that you have really good teamwork if everyone on the team is worse individually against a team that is somewhat working together.
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On April 21 2013 23:05 EquilasH wrote:
How is this even a discussion? Obviously individual player's skill matter a lot. It doesn't matter that you have really good teamwork if everyone on the team is worse individually against a team that is somewhat working together.
Iono mang. That's a pretty bold statement to make.
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On April 21 2013 23:05 EquilasH wrote:
How is this even a discussion?
It's not a discussion, it's just 2 sides bashing their opinion into a wall like every other internet argument.
What do you guys think of Fizz jungle?
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On the communication debate--
A lot of the time communication is dependent on team skill. Having a shot caller is an advantage, and communication is great, but I would say that 90% of communication is stuff that doesn't even have to be said. Superior players communicate through simply playing right. If everyone on your team is aware of the fact that there's a crucial event coming up and plays accordingly without even having to be told it's so much easier to "communicate" than it is if you have to remind everyone individually that there's a high-reward situation coming up and they need to be able to contribute to it meaningfully. On top of knowing stuff like that and playing accordingly without having to be told, the players with superior game knowledge generally play better overall, so there's even more incentive to have really strong individual players in each role over someone who communicates in observable ways. Team synergy comes as a result of that. I'd even go so far as to say that the superior player is the one that can synergize best with their team. If you're a mechanical god then it doesn't really matter what style your team plays, you should be able to adapt to it. That's why everyone thinks WildTurtle is such a good fit on TSM. He plays to the team's style, but I'm sure if you told him to focus on farm and not dominate his opponent in lane he'd be capable of that, too. You don't get good at outplaying people without being able to play soundly first.
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I really like the old karma. Such a shame they did an overhaul on her.
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On April 21 2013 23:07 Zergneedsfood wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2013 23:05 EquilasH wrote:
How is this even a discussion? Obviously individual player's skill matter a lot. It doesn't matter that you have really good teamwork if everyone on the team is worse individually against a team that is somewhat working together. Iono mang. That's a pretty bold statement to make.
Well, from my own experience when I played with a team of IRL friends who worked really well together (everyone blindly listened to me) we were beating some teams that were slightly better than us individually. But the second we faced new teams without much teamwork and everyone except me were getting outclassed individually we crumbled 80% of the time (keep in mind this is only 4 players getting outclassed and not a full team).
Similarly in pre-season 3 I joined a team and the first games we had were in a go4lol (we were all diamond in s2), we barely spoke at all in Teamspeak and we were beating teams with mixed plat/diamonds that had been together for months. We eventually finished 2nd losing only to a full diamond team that had played together for a long time.
Any other high Elo player I've spoken to have pretty much had the same experiences with new teams vs senior teams of lower skilled players.
Obviously this is just my own experiences but at least it's enough for me to form an opinion that can't really be changed by WhiteDog's theorycrafting.
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I've had the opposite experiences. =P
The times we didn't win were when we had awful communication and yelled at each other for twenty minutes.
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yelling at each other means you're focusing on other players mistakes and generally focusing on winning arguments and not winning the game. That's different.
It;s assumed that if you're a professional team the only communication going on in an LCS match is constructive (maybe not in CLG though lolol)
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On April 21 2013 23:14 EquilasH wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2013 23:07 Zergneedsfood wrote:On April 21 2013 23:05 EquilasH wrote:
How is this even a discussion? Obviously individual player's skill matter a lot. It doesn't matter that you have really good teamwork if everyone on the team is worse individually against a team that is somewhat working together. Iono mang. That's a pretty bold statement to make. Well, from my own experience when I played with a team of IRL friends who worked really well together (everyone blindly listened to me) we were beating some teams that were slightly better than us individually. But the second we faced new teams without much teamwork and everyone except me were getting outclassed individually we crumbled 80% of the time (keep in mind this is only 4 players getting outclassed and not a full team). Similarly in pre-season 3 I joined a team and the first games we had were in a go4lol (we were all diamond in s2), we barely spoke at all in Teamspeak and we were beating teams with mixed plat/diamonds that had been together for months. We eventually finished 2nd losing only to a full diamond team that had played together for a long time. Any other high Elo player I've spoken to have pretty much had the same experiences with new teams vs senior teams of lower skilled players. Obviously this is just my own experiences but at least it's enough for me to form an opinion that can't really be changed by WhiteDog's theorycrafting.
Yeah, the big thing is that teamwork still doesn't help the laners when they're 1v1 (or 2v2), and if the players are just better, they can just get even or even get ahead even if they get ganked or camped. Teamwork only matters when the lanes are sufficiently close to even.
There's also the problem that having a weak lane forces you to not make plays sometimes. It's like when you duo with IRL friends with low elos. You sometimes want to invade the jungle, but you know that if both mids follow, your mid will just get 1v1 wtfowned so you can't. If he does come and theirs does not (and there is no fight) then your mid gets behind a level and will start to feed. Your laners have to be good enough that slight experience differences will not cause them to feed, which means they have to be surprisingly close in skill (or just "good players") to the other laners. Otherwise, communicate all you want and you'll still have lanes getting stomped.
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That's exactly my point except it goes a little further than that.
Even for teamfights it doesn't matter much if you have good communication when the other team are individually better at executing the teamfights.
Also goes for objectives and general map movement.
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On April 21 2013 23:10 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
On the communication debate--
A lot of the time communication is dependent on team skill. Having a shot caller is an advantage, and communication is great, but I would say that 90% of communication is stuff that doesn't even have to be said. Superior players communicate through simply playing right. If everyone on your team is aware of the fact that there's a crucial event coming up and plays accordingly without even having to be told it's so much easier to "communicate" than it is if you have to remind everyone individually that there's a high-reward situation coming up and they need to be able to contribute to it meaningfully. On top of knowing stuff like that and playing accordingly without having to be told, the players with superior game knowledge generally play better overall, so there's even more incentive to have really strong individual players in each role over someone who communicates in observable ways. Team synergy comes as a result of that. I'd even go so far as to say that the superior player is the one that can synergize best with their team. If you're a mechanical god then it doesn't really matter what style your team plays, you should be able to adapt to it. That's why everyone thinks WildTurtle is such a good fit on TSM. He plays to the team's style, but I'm sure if you told him to focus on farm and not dominate his opponent in lane he'd be capable of that, too. You don't get good at outplaying people without being able to play soundly first.
I'm gonna have to disagree with some of what you're saying based on listening to various teams communicating when they stream scrims. EG, CRS, even M5 (that one subtitled game) the teams are constantly pinging "obvious" stuff and/or saying it over voicechat (jungler spotted by our wraiths ward, soandso recalled, etc.) Yes, you should be able to know that you're supposed to leave bot lane and go dragon when your jungler is walking over to dragon after successfully ganking your lane. But even top teams will say that out loud on voicechat.
That said, the rest of what you're saying is very true. You still have to be able to synergize best with your team, and strong mechanical skill makes it easier to synergize. I believe it was Scarra that said that communication can be learned but good mechanical skill takes longer to learn.
Turtle's even said in his AMA that he's less aggro on TSM.
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Constant pings happen in solo queue too, nothing you need voicechat for
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My only point is that 5hit was saying " 90% of communication is stuff that doesn't even have to be said. "
They say it anyway.
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On April 21 2013 23:14 EquilasH wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2013 23:07 Zergneedsfood wrote:On April 21 2013 23:05 EquilasH wrote:
How is this even a discussion? Obviously individual player's skill matter a lot. It doesn't matter that you have really good teamwork if everyone on the team is worse individually against a team that is somewhat working together. Iono mang. That's a pretty bold statement to make. Well, from my own experience when I played with a team of IRL friends who worked really well together (everyone blindly listened to me) we were beating some teams that were slightly better than us individually. But the second we faced new teams without much teamwork and everyone except me were getting outclassed individually we crumbled 80% of the time (keep in mind this is only 4 players getting outclassed and not a full team). Similarly in pre-season 3 I joined a team and the first games we had were in a go4lol (we were all diamond in s2), we barely spoke at all in Teamspeak and we were beating teams with mixed plat/diamonds that had been together for months. We eventually finished 2nd losing only to a full diamond team that had played together for a long time. Any other high Elo player I've spoken to have pretty much had the same experiences with new teams vs senior teams of lower skilled players. Obviously this is just my own experiences but at least it's enough for me to form an opinion that can't really be changed by WhiteDog's theorycrafting.
I wasn't theorycrafting, I was assuming that at the highest level of play, only a few players had a real individual impact on the game individually. And it's precisely the case for NA, where NO player stands out. The highest KDA is a conservative player that create nothing. Ok I can agree that Bjergsen and some specific player are different, but I don't agree that changing elementz with say patoy will change much for curse.*
When you look at them, you clearly see there are some problem coming from saintvicious for exemple.
Also I don't see why some people don't like that two people are disagreeing in a forum, shit happen.
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On April 21 2013 23:55 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2013 23:14 EquilasH wrote:On April 21 2013 23:07 Zergneedsfood wrote:On April 21 2013 23:05 EquilasH wrote:
How is this even a discussion? Obviously individual player's skill matter a lot. It doesn't matter that you have really good teamwork if everyone on the team is worse individually against a team that is somewhat working together. Iono mang. That's a pretty bold statement to make. Well, from my own experience when I played with a team of IRL friends who worked really well together (everyone blindly listened to me) we were beating some teams that were slightly better than us individually. But the second we faced new teams without much teamwork and everyone except me were getting outclassed individually we crumbled 80% of the time (keep in mind this is only 4 players getting outclassed and not a full team). Similarly in pre-season 3 I joined a team and the first games we had were in a go4lol (we were all diamond in s2), we barely spoke at all in Teamspeak and we were beating teams with mixed plat/diamonds that had been together for months. We eventually finished 2nd losing only to a full diamond team that had played together for a long time. Any other high Elo player I've spoken to have pretty much had the same experiences with new teams vs senior teams of lower skilled players. Obviously this is just my own experiences but at least it's enough for me to form an opinion that can't really be changed by WhiteDog's theorycrafting. I wasn't theorycrafting, I was assuming that at the highest level of play, only a few players had a real individual impact on the game individually. And it's precisely the case for NA, where NO player stands out. The highest KDA is a conservative player that create nothing. Ok I can agree that Bjergsen and some specific player are different, but I don't agree that changing elementz with say patoy will change much for curse.* When you look at them, you clearly see there are some problem coming from saintvicious for exemple. Also I don't see why some people don't like that two people are disagreeing in a forum, shit happen.
Actually it will change a lot.If you are confident your lanes will play as you expect them to it changes a lot attitude and just mindset wise.Saying it wouldn't make a difference is just wrong.Especially svicious seems affected by his teammates' play A LOT.
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EPT
