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On April 21 2013 18:38 UnKooL wrote:There is a fairly big qualifier tournament for esports including sc2/lol in korea right now called Incheon Asian Indoor Games (atm its the qualifiers for the Asian Indoor Games held in Incheon on June/July). I am not sure where the brackets are located, but many top korean players/teams are competing. For more information about Asian Indoor Games: http://www.aimag2013.org/enhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asian_Indoor_GamesHeld in Incheon this year: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Asian_Indoor-Martial_Arts_GamesLook under Sports Programs tab and you will see the esports section. There isn't much information on the site except the games. Again, right now its the qualifiers for the main tournament that will be held in June/July. I think technically they are picking the Korean representatives for the Asian Indoor Games, but I'm not sure how many other Asian countries are involved in the esports section so it doesn't seem very different from a qualifier tournament. You can watch the LoL qualifier in korean from nicegametv: http://nicegame.tv/new/They stream it in afreeca and ustream, scroll down from the their main website and it should be live in ustream. Currently (first streamed match): MVP Ozone vs CJ Entus Blaze
CJ Entus Frost lost a game to the amateur team VTG Monsters, while CJ Entus Blaze abused Homme to the fullest and pulls out ahead against MVP Ozone.
Imp pulls out Vayne!
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Asian Indoor Games carried e-sport for quite a few years now. SC:BW was in its official games in 2007. Its cool too see major sports event carrying e-sport.
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Ireland23335 Posts
On April 21 2013 18:13 overt wrote:
Rarely is bot won or lost by one of the pair. If the lane wins hard usually the ADC and support both played well. If the lane loses hard it's usually both of them misplaying (although the lane can sometimes lose due to the ADC doing stupid shit/trying to go too aggro or the support having no presence).
Thats dumb. You're just saying
The lane can be lost if they both misplay (nobody is perfect so everyone misplays)
Or if the ad plays bad
Or if the support plays bad
Also no mention of lane comps where you might have to all in to win but lose if you play passive or lanes where you can play passive and lose but rely on jungler support to snowball a lane but it only works if the jungler comes. Or lanes you are behind but have to outplay them to win but only if you are confident you can outplay them and your AD knows what you're trying to do.
Shit is a lot more complicated
Here's the situation you care about as a support
Can I cause my lane to stomp the other lane assuming I'm playing with a mediocre ad carry who will make some mistakes and some good plays given the chance against an ad carry an support who are both mediocre an will make some mistakes and some good plays given the chance
and 99% of the time you can if you play the theoretical perfect support which you should be trying to (but most people seem to prefer coming up with excuses for why you cant carry as support)
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On April 21 2013 17:51 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2013 17:32 Caphe wrote:On April 21 2013 15:16 kainzero wrote:On April 21 2013 13:58 wei2coolman wrote:On April 21 2013 13:41 Craton wrote:On April 21 2013 11:54 Eppa! wrote:
How does support have less to do than the jungler? We really, really, really need an eyeroll gif. It's entirely dependent on the champ. Don't you know? Hitting Sona ults requires concentration. in the clg vs mrn game, i think aphro hit like 9/10 sona ults. everyone makes fun of him for missing that 1 ult. sona is hard to play. For me playing Support in pro-team is like playing the Goal Keeper in soccer. You make countless save and awesome plays during the game, but just one mistake you made and let the opponent score, you are the sinner, you are the one to blame. While ADC on the other hand, is the Striker in soccer, you can waste your time doing stupid shits ALL GAME LONG, but you score the winning goal(like an ADC clean up with a quadra/penta kills) you are the hero, there will songs that people will sing about you. Life is hard and unfair. EDIT: Mogwai is duo-Q with Freak rightnow. Wtf? yeah this Support has huge impact on the game HOWEVER it's much easier to be a bad support and go unnoticed than some other role. Remember nobody votes for cop even though he had extremely solid kda and shit and did well in lcs? It's because elementz sucks at supports so they don't dominate lanes. Curse struggling in LCS? Saint having trouble jungling when bot is always losing and voyboy plays aggressive so the junglers can camp him and saint can only be either top or bot and he likes to farm a lot too. And in teamfights, supports have tons of room to make plays, you don't get focused so you can make a lot of aggressive plays on their back line and change the momentum of the fight. However you can just sit on the back and sit next to your AD and nobody will notice because supports aren't expected to be sort of reactionary and sitting next to your AD is often a good thing to do if you don't see any plays to make. Theres a reason you see edward getting tons of kills and its not because he's ksing it's just because he's killing shit and isn't going to risk losing kills to try to let the ad get the gold because it doesn't matter that much it's pretty easy to farm than 300 gold on AD carry anyway if he REALLY needs it.
I don't agree at all about Cop having a "bad" support. There is a reason they picked Elementz again after trying out Rhux. From my point of view blaming Elementz - or blaming the support - is the best way to hide the misery and continue on like before. Overall Curse is a pretty shakky team, and the lose they started to pile up in the second part of the season cannot be attributed to Elementz :
Voyboy did way less (he was crushing in the first part of the season now he is mehh and everybody love on Dyrus again);
SV have some troubling decision making (what the fuck at some engage);
Nyjacky is most likely the king of AP in the region where they all suck (look Regi on TF...). He is good but he rarely create anything and play pretty conservative so he needs his mate to win their lanes;
Cop is Nyjacky and Nyjacky is Cop, they play the same.
Now again, just like regi saying goodbye to chaox, benching elementz might give them some hopes and push them to train better, but blaming Elementz for their lose is just the quick way to get out of their problems.
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Ireland23335 Posts
You're saying TSM went from what, 4th place? Straight to first winning every game even when they played with wildturtle WITHOUT practicing with him and that was just pushing them to train harder?
Also voyboy doing less could also be a bot lane thing. The stronger the enemy AD/support is the harder it is to dive the team. Also it could be what saint was saying in that every team camps voyboy because saint always has to babysit bot. I haven't seen dyrus do that well either, he's not really carrying games but he's not failing (except on shen wtflol)
Anyway, if the support is getting blamed something is seriously wrong because people don't care about supports most of the time, unless they are really good or really bad.
And did I hear elementz wasn't even diamond in solo queue? If so thats a complete joke. He should be at least challenger to even be in a top 4 lcs team. There are support mains at top spots in challenger why the hell would you keep someone who whines and doesn't practice properly and sucks anyway?
Voyboy and saint are still 2 of the best of their roles in NA, and Cop and Nyjacky are at least solid, elementz has sucked consistently and been in the pro scene because of his history in the early days of CLG. Plus he can probably make a living off streaming and his website anyway (although if he's making tier lists and he's not even a top 10000 or whatever diamond is that's pretty lolsy)
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On April 21 2013 20:12 Slayer91 wrote:
You're saying TSM went from what, 4th place? Straight to first winning every game even when they played with wildturtle WITHOUT practicing with him and that was just pushing them to train harder?
Also voyboy doing less could also be a bot lane thing. The stronger the enemy AD/support is the harder it is to dive the team. Also it could be what saint was saying in that every team camps voyboy because saint always has to babysit bot.
Anyway, if the support is getting blamed something is seriously wrong because people don't care about supports most of the time, unless they are really good or really bad.
And did I hear elementz wasn't even diamond in solo queue? If so thats a complete joke. He should be at least challenger to even be in a top 4 lcs team. There are support mains at top spots in challenger why the hell would you keep someone who whines and doesn't practice properly and sucks anyway?
Well, I am only saying this because that's what TSM is saying : they were not preparing match with chaox, no strategize before hand, etc.
And they were 3rd place, 4th is clg ;D It also have a lot to do with all the lower team getting better and taking games off CLG / Dig and Curse, helping TSM getting to 1rst because they are more consistent.
Yeah Elementz was 1800 elo like 2 years ago, I'm not sure it's the same now.
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On April 21 2013 20:16 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2013 20:12 Slayer91 wrote:
You're saying TSM went from what, 4th place? Straight to first winning every game even when they played with wildturtle WITHOUT practicing with him and that was just pushing them to train harder?
Also voyboy doing less could also be a bot lane thing. The stronger the enemy AD/support is the harder it is to dive the team. Also it could be what saint was saying in that every team camps voyboy because saint always has to babysit bot.
Anyway, if the support is getting blamed something is seriously wrong because people don't care about supports most of the time, unless they are really good or really bad.
And did I hear elementz wasn't even diamond in solo queue? If so thats a complete joke. He should be at least challenger to even be in a top 4 lcs team. There are support mains at top spots in challenger why the hell would you keep someone who whines and doesn't practice properly and sucks anyway? Well, I am only saying this because that's what TSM is saying : they were not preparing match with chaox, no strategize before hand, etc. And they were 3rd place, 4th is clg ;D It also have a lot to do with all the lower team getting better and taking games off CLG / Dig and Curse, helping TSM getting to 1rst because they are more consistent. Yeah Elementz was 1800 elo like 2 years ago, I'm not sure it's the same now.
Chaox played 1 champ decently(mf) which is a joke.Elementz doesn't even have one.
Soloq is soloq why even bother bringing it up.If he played well and was gold noone would care.
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On April 21 2013 20:19 nafta wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2013 20:16 WhiteDog wrote:On April 21 2013 20:12 Slayer91 wrote:
You're saying TSM went from what, 4th place? Straight to first winning every game even when they played with wildturtle WITHOUT practicing with him and that was just pushing them to train harder?
Also voyboy doing less could also be a bot lane thing. The stronger the enemy AD/support is the harder it is to dive the team. Also it could be what saint was saying in that every team camps voyboy because saint always has to babysit bot.
Anyway, if the support is getting blamed something is seriously wrong because people don't care about supports most of the time, unless they are really good or really bad.
And did I hear elementz wasn't even diamond in solo queue? If so thats a complete joke. He should be at least challenger to even be in a top 4 lcs team. There are support mains at top spots in challenger why the hell would you keep someone who whines and doesn't practice properly and sucks anyway? Well, I am only saying this because that's what TSM is saying : they were not preparing match with chaox, no strategize before hand, etc. And they were 3rd place, 4th is clg ;D It also have a lot to do with all the lower team getting better and taking games off CLG / Dig and Curse, helping TSM getting to 1rst because they are more consistent. Yeah Elementz was 1800 elo like 2 years ago, I'm not sure it's the same now. Chaox played 1 champ decently(mf) which is a joke.Elementz doesn't even have one. Soloq is soloq why even bother bringing it up.If he played well and was gold noone would care.
Look Genja, he plays Ez and MF, and nobody blame him.
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Ireland23335 Posts
Of course they were training and strategizing, you can even see on game cribs they are strategizing. They are just saying shit like this because
a: they dont want to make chaox seem bad by saying we went 9-0 or whatever after benching him because he sucked
b: when you have internal struggles (chaox showing up late and getting into fights and not caring about training, team loses confidence in him, he still wants to make shot calls and stuff even when the team doesnt believe in him anymore) it's a lot harder to focus on just the game so it feels like you're training a lot more when you just have practice to worry about.
I think if M5 were failing people would be looking at genja and darien as the weaker links but they're still very good players compared to chaox/elementz.
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On April 21 2013 20:21 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2013 20:19 nafta wrote:On April 21 2013 20:16 WhiteDog wrote:On April 21 2013 20:12 Slayer91 wrote:
You're saying TSM went from what, 4th place? Straight to first winning every game even when they played with wildturtle WITHOUT practicing with him and that was just pushing them to train harder?
Also voyboy doing less could also be a bot lane thing. The stronger the enemy AD/support is the harder it is to dive the team. Also it could be what saint was saying in that every team camps voyboy because saint always has to babysit bot.
Anyway, if the support is getting blamed something is seriously wrong because people don't care about supports most of the time, unless they are really good or really bad.
And did I hear elementz wasn't even diamond in solo queue? If so thats a complete joke. He should be at least challenger to even be in a top 4 lcs team. There are support mains at top spots in challenger why the hell would you keep someone who whines and doesn't practice properly and sucks anyway? Well, I am only saying this because that's what TSM is saying : they were not preparing match with chaox, no strategize before hand, etc. And they were 3rd place, 4th is clg ;D It also have a lot to do with all the lower team getting better and taking games off CLG / Dig and Curse, helping TSM getting to 1rst because they are more consistent. Yeah Elementz was 1800 elo like 2 years ago, I'm not sure it's the same now. Chaox played 1 champ decently(mf) which is a joke.Elementz doesn't even have one. Soloq is soloq why even bother bringing it up.If he played well and was gold noone would care. Look Genja, he plays Ez and MF, and nobody blame him.
To be fair darien has like 3 champs as well.It's just that edward/alex/diamond are so good it doesn't even matter.If gambit wanted to find better players they would have but they have decided to stay with this roster I guess.
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On April 21 2013 20:22 Slayer91 wrote:
Of course they were training and strategizing, you can even see on game cribs they are strategizing. They are just saying shit like this because
a: they dont want to make chaox seem bad by saying we went 9-0 or whatever after benching him because he sucked
b: when you have internal struggles (chaox showing up late and getting into fights and not caring about training, team loses confidence in him, he still wants to make shot calls and stuff even when the team doesnt believe in him anymore) it's a lot harder to focus on just the game so it feels like you're training a lot more when you just have practice to worry about.
I think if M5 were failing people would be looking at genja and darien as the weaker links but they're still very good players compared to chaox/elementz.
They said they were not preparing for each match individually before Wildturtle came in. I tend to believe in them because most NA teams were in the same situation (complexity, vulcum, all said they were not having specific strategies for each opponent before hand but just trained broad compositions for all games).
My point is : NA scene is overall less professionnal than other scene and they are still learning the job, and all the blame game reflect that a lot. In EU you never see a team kicking a guy and blaming him for his performance (did you see any blame for DB benching spontexx and malunoo ? the idea was to put yamatocannon because he could be a shot caller, not that spontexx sucked individually and was responsible for DB's poor performance). Roster change can be needed, but blaming someone individually for a team failure is just a joke, especially in a game where the mecanics are so low.
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Ireland23335 Posts
LOL as if mechanics being low has anything to do with anything
I've played enough solo queue to know that 1 player's (yourself) performance is EASILY enough to make or break a team when everyone else on roughly on the same level
Look at CW losing EVERY single game until they got bjergsen then going what, 12-3?
Please.
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On April 21 2013 20:19 nafta wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2013 20:16 WhiteDog wrote:On April 21 2013 20:12 Slayer91 wrote:
You're saying TSM went from what, 4th place? Straight to first winning every game even when they played with wildturtle WITHOUT practicing with him and that was just pushing them to train harder?
Also voyboy doing less could also be a bot lane thing. The stronger the enemy AD/support is the harder it is to dive the team. Also it could be what saint was saying in that every team camps voyboy because saint always has to babysit bot.
Anyway, if the support is getting blamed something is seriously wrong because people don't care about supports most of the time, unless they are really good or really bad.
And did I hear elementz wasn't even diamond in solo queue? If so thats a complete joke. He should be at least challenger to even be in a top 4 lcs team. There are support mains at top spots in challenger why the hell would you keep someone who whines and doesn't practice properly and sucks anyway? Well, I am only saying this because that's what TSM is saying : they were not preparing match with chaox, no strategize before hand, etc. And they were 3rd place, 4th is clg ;D It also have a lot to do with all the lower team getting better and taking games off CLG / Dig and Curse, helping TSM getting to 1rst because they are more consistent. Yeah Elementz was 1800 elo like 2 years ago, I'm not sure it's the same now. Chaox played 1 champ decently(mf) which is a joke.Elementz doesn't even have one. Soloq is soloq why even bother bringing it up.If he played well and was gold noone would care.
Well Chaox had a really good corki so his performance kind of went to shit when Corki got nerfed to uselessness, though I agree that he was quite low level for a top ADC and indeed he only could play MF.
Elementz though indeed is like platinum and he's never really impressed me, actually always misses with everything.
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Korea (South)11232 Posts
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On April 21 2013 20:55 Slayer91 wrote:
LOL as if mechanics being low has anything to do with anything
I've played enough solo queue to know that 1 player's (yourself) performance is EASILY enough to make or break a team when everyone else on roughly on the same level
Look at CW losing EVERY single game until they got bjergsen then going what, 12-3?
Please.
I'm not sure that at this level of play, the performance of one player can "make or break" a team. Soloqueue is (or should ?) be really different from LCS matches.
It's true for some players, like xpeke or bjergsen, that have such a huge impact on the game, but I'm not even sure it's the case: it all depend on the team that permit them to make those plays. Look at current froggen, still one of the best mid in the world, but do you see him makes dem plays anymore ? Not really, because his team is in a little slump so he can't express himself like xpeke or bjergsen. Also, I'm pretty sure having bjergsen in the team changed a lot of things for CW in term of strategy and all.
I think what makes teams is more behind the screen, in what we can't see, like team communication, how you take objectives, what is the strategy, who is the shotcaller and how good his calls are, etc. But maybe I'm wrong.
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Ireland23335 Posts
On April 21 2013 21:04 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2013 20:55 Slayer91 wrote:
LOL as if mechanics being low has anything to do with anything
I've played enough solo queue to know that 1 player's (yourself) performance is EASILY enough to make or break a team when everyone else on roughly on the same level
Look at CW losing EVERY single game until they got bjergsen then going what, 12-3?
Please. I'm not sure that at this level of play, the performance of one player can "make or break" a team. Soloqueue is (or should ?) be really different from LCS matches. It's true for some players, like xpeke or bjergsen, that have such a huge impact on the game, but I'm not even sure it's the case: it all depend on the team that permit them to make those plays. Look at current froggen, still one of the best mid in the world, but do you see him makes dem plays anymore ? Not really, because his team is in a little slump so he can't express himself like xpeke or bjergsen. Also, I'm pretty sure having bjergsen in the team changed a lot of things for CW in term of strategy and all. I think what makes teams is more behind the screen, in what we can't see, like team communication, how you take objectives, what is the strategy, who is the shotcaller and how good his calls are, etc. But maybe I'm wrong.
Yes OF COURSE you need a team to make plays. I'm not saying anyone is 1v5ing a team. I don't know how the fuck you can't understand. Cowtard wasn't carrying teams in CW, he had the same team, he should have the same opportunities. But the fact is when you swap a below average player for a top class player he plays better becomes stronger and realizes opportunities better. It DOES NOT matter if its solo queue or team games. The difference between winning a teamfight and losing a teamfight can easily change with a player. If one guy misses an ult and the other guy hits a perfect ult in the same situation that can easily be the difference between stomping and losing badly. Now imagine the player was also playing better before meaning he lanes better, dies less gets more kills, which denies the other team gold and increases your gold, and then every single teamfight he plays better, winning more teamfights and snowballing the game from being behind with one guy, to winning with the other guy.
Team strategy and communication and shotcallers and shit it all doesn't matter a damn thing if its 4v5. Thats the extreme case but if you imagine a player losing lane and being half as strong as the enemy, or winning a lane and being twice is strong, (0.5 vs 1.5, to 1.5 vs 0.5) thats almost like going from playing 4v5 to playing 5v4.
I mean look at TSM. They still play exactly the same strategy wise and team communication I imagine barely changed but having a better player just snowballs games hard starting from minute one.
You seem to see team synergy as some kind of mystical thing given from god but if you listne to any top team, I guarantee you there will be nothing special in terms of calls and communication, 95% of the work is done from the players individually, and the calls are probably not much more than a team in solo queue calling to do dragon. They are important for coordination and keeping everyone thinking on the same page (because even farming up for another 5 minutes or pushing down towers 1 by 1 are equally good strats it only works if you have the whole team committed to either)
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Think this discussion is going nowhere either way so lets just move on from the topic.
What do you guys think the freljord 3 quests event will be exactly? Obviously related to 3 freljord factions but are there any actual consequences aside from ingame icons? Could be :o
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Ireland23335 Posts
I think this is a key point to why some people don't understand how they can "carry" games when their lane partner is bad or their jungler or bad or their mid is feeding or whatever. If you can't visualize how every mistake and bad play can cause you to lose the game or every good sequence of plays can cause you to win the play you're going to get demoralized a lot faster and get into that state of oh I couldn't do anything that game.
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I think we agree on everything except on the fact that Elementz is bad. I just assumed that, at this level, everybody can be considered good with slight differences and that most of the reasons on why such team do good and not this one comes from things that goes beyond individuals.
We will end this discussion eventually continue on TL Party one day or another 
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Yeah, the difference between winning and losing can be surprisingly tiny. Let's assume you are mid with a losing bottom lane, enemy jungler and them towerdive your bottom lane, you arrive and make an awesome play that leaves you alive at 50 hp and with a double kill and double buff, when if you had made a slight positioning / micro error they'd have killed you and killed your bottom tower as well. This seemingly slight play gives you double buff, lets you stomp mid, pressure bot again and making your bottom lane turn it around and actually start winning from there. You end up stomping the enemy team when your bottom lane would have went 0-14 if you didn't happen to kill the jungler and take his double buff with 50 hp left, which would have ended up with you flaming your noob bottom lane in all chat when in this game your ad carry ended up with something like 10-5-8, a huge swing because of such a small thing.
Which also is why the jungler and the mid are in my opinion the most influential roles(though they all can have a large effect)
Also, Elementz is bad in the sense that there's numerous superior support players clogging the top of solo queue and team communication really isn't all that difficult especially if your mechanical skills and game knowledge just are way better.
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EPT
