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United States47024 Posts
People get BotRK on Zed because BotRK fundamentally pairs well with champs that have heavily end-loaded burst (because BotRK does more damage when they're at high HP, and less damage when they're at low HP, it works well when you have something that can "finish off" the enemy at low HP). Death Mark is a perfect example of a strong end-loaded ability (delayed damage, and the amplified damage is the % current HP damage when the enemy was still at higher HP).
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Man, it is insane how fast volibear's popularity exploded.
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Aphro used to main Draven when he was playing for ex-Fear, so I guess he noticed gaps in the guy's play? Doesn't mean DL won't get destroyed if he thinks he can win in a straight 1v1 right-click fest.
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United States23745 Posts
On April 08 2013 10:03 Shikyo wrote:
So on Zed, why do people build BotRK instead of Ravenous Hydra, assuming it's for the burst? Because of Zed's W passive, Hydra's active is going to deal more damage than BotRK active most of the time(except against tanks) and it of course has an extremely low cooldown. It's like a second E, actually dealing even more damage.
Also yeah Draven hardcounters Vayne. Draven can just throw axes at Vayne whenever he feels like and it's a free kill if she doesn't condemn.
I think a lot of people still have the perception that Hydra is bad. It's actually not to bad now though with it's recent cost reduction.
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On April 08 2013 10:06 nafta wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 10:03 Shikyo wrote:
So on Zed, why do people build BotRK instead of Ravenous Hydra, assuming it's for the burst? Because of Zed's passive, Hydra's active is going to deal more damage than BotRK active most of the time(except against tanks) and it of course has an extremely low cooldown. It's like a second E, actually dealing even more damage.
Also yeah Draven hardcounters Vayne. Draven can just throw axes at Vayne whenever he feels like and it's a free kill if she doesn't condemn. The active does a lot of dmg and let's you keep up so they can't just slow you and walk away.
But he gets an automated shadowed E for 60% slow already... I don't know, I just keep hearing about the BotRK active but Ravenous Hydra's active deals more dmg on a 10 second cooldown, gives more AD so that all of his skills deal more damage, and also... Zed's not really going to be autoing much in the burst, it goes something like R -> E -> aim Q -> hit once, ignite. BotRK passive effect won't really have the time to come into play here, especially as it's imo more important to get the target below 50% hp with the individual burst so that you can finally tag them with your passive.
It also feels better outside the ult as well, mainly because of the 10 second cooldown and the double E effect with living shadow. This is of course pure theory but yeah, still makes you wonder.
Like the BotRK active is 15% of max hp which is great and all, but Ravenous Hydra active is 100% of Zed's AD which is going to be at like... 300 very early on because of his W passive 25% extra bonus AD, so he's going to be dealing more dmg to squishies for almost the entire game. Also, because of his combo, he won't be autoattacking the opponent when they're at full hp because he wants to use the double slow E first, so the passive really won't be coming into play here.
Also please don't talk about "but he doesn't need the waveclear because of his E", first of all more waveclear is never bad and second, the main factor is the 100% AD burst active for his ult combo.
Note I do recognize that BotRK active is significantly better than Hydra's, but Hydra gives him more of the stats he needs and the cooldown's much much much much shorter, you can use it multiple times in a teamfight, it's like a second E(higher dmg than E actually)
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Any good player can just time his flash and you won't be able to get him with the e from r shadow and the w animation is too slow to get him with it.It just makes sure you can stick on the person you are going on.
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Hydra as an item overall just feels... weak. Unless you are someone with no ability to push like... Fiora or something, it's probably a better idea to get BotRK or BT.
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On April 08 2013 11:00 beefhamburger wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 10:24 Shikyo wrote:On April 08 2013 10:06 nafta wrote:On April 08 2013 10:03 Shikyo wrote:
So on Zed, why do people build BotRK instead of Ravenous Hydra, assuming it's for the burst? Because of Zed's passive, Hydra's active is going to deal more damage than BotRK active most of the time(except against tanks) and it of course has an extremely low cooldown. It's like a second E, actually dealing even more damage.
Also yeah Draven hardcounters Vayne. Draven can just throw axes at Vayne whenever he feels like and it's a free kill if she doesn't condemn. The active does a lot of dmg and let's you keep up so they can't just slow you and walk away. But he gets an automated shadowed E for 60% slow already... I don't know, I just keep hearing about the BotRK active but Ravenous Hydra's active deals more dmg on a 10 second cooldown, gives more AD so that all of his skills deal more damage, and also... Zed's not really going to be autoing much in the burst, it goes something like R -> E -> aim Q -> hit once, ignite. BotRK passive effect won't really have the time to come into play here, especially as it's imo more important to get the target below 50% hp with the individual burst so that you can finally tag them with your passive. It also feels better outside the ult as well, mainly because of the 10 second cooldown and the double E effect with living shadow. This is of course pure theory but yeah, still makes you wonder. Like the BotRK active is 15% of max hp which is great and all, but Ravenous Hydra active is 100% of Zed's AD which is going to be at like... 300 very early on because of his W passive 25% extra bonus AD, so he's going to be dealing more dmg to squishies for almost the entire game. Also, because of his combo, he won't be autoattacking the opponent when they're at full hp because he wants to use the double slow E first, so the passive really won't be coming into play here. Also please don't talk about "but he doesn't need the waveclear because of his E", first of all more waveclear is never bad and second, the main factor is the 100% AD burst active for his ult combo. Note I do recognize that BotRK active is significantly better than Hydra's, but Hydra gives him more of the stats he needs and the cooldown's much much much much shorter, you can use it multiple times in a teamfight, it's like a second E(higher dmg than E actually) Apart from the base AD difference, how does the active on hydra help zed at all assassinating a single target? I agree hydra is better in lanes to clear quickly or push, but in teamfights, I don't see it helping him do his job all that much. If anything, I'd prefer a BT over hydra on zed.
Along with the base AD difference, the active is a burst of 100% of Zed's AD of course, which is then again boosted by his W passive... How does it not help burst down a single target? Also, would you really trade a 300 dmg AoE nuke that lifesteals for 25AD(inconsistently)?
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On April 08 2013 11:11 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 11:00 beefhamburger wrote:On April 08 2013 10:24 Shikyo wrote:On April 08 2013 10:06 nafta wrote:On April 08 2013 10:03 Shikyo wrote:
So on Zed, why do people build BotRK instead of Ravenous Hydra, assuming it's for the burst? Because of Zed's passive, Hydra's active is going to deal more damage than BotRK active most of the time(except against tanks) and it of course has an extremely low cooldown. It's like a second E, actually dealing even more damage.
Also yeah Draven hardcounters Vayne. Draven can just throw axes at Vayne whenever he feels like and it's a free kill if she doesn't condemn. The active does a lot of dmg and let's you keep up so they can't just slow you and walk away. But he gets an automated shadowed E for 60% slow already... I don't know, I just keep hearing about the BotRK active but Ravenous Hydra's active deals more dmg on a 10 second cooldown, gives more AD so that all of his skills deal more damage, and also... Zed's not really going to be autoing much in the burst, it goes something like R -> E -> aim Q -> hit once, ignite. BotRK passive effect won't really have the time to come into play here, especially as it's imo more important to get the target below 50% hp with the individual burst so that you can finally tag them with your passive. It also feels better outside the ult as well, mainly because of the 10 second cooldown and the double E effect with living shadow. This is of course pure theory but yeah, still makes you wonder. Like the BotRK active is 15% of max hp which is great and all, but Ravenous Hydra active is 100% of Zed's AD which is going to be at like... 300 very early on because of his W passive 25% extra bonus AD, so he's going to be dealing more dmg to squishies for almost the entire game. Also, because of his combo, he won't be autoattacking the opponent when they're at full hp because he wants to use the double slow E first, so the passive really won't be coming into play here. Also please don't talk about "but he doesn't need the waveclear because of his E", first of all more waveclear is never bad and second, the main factor is the 100% AD burst active for his ult combo. Note I do recognize that BotRK active is significantly better than Hydra's, but Hydra gives him more of the stats he needs and the cooldown's much much much much shorter, you can use it multiple times in a teamfight, it's like a second E(higher dmg than E actually) Apart from the base AD difference, how does the active on hydra help zed at all assassinating a single target? I agree hydra is better in lanes to clear quickly or push, but in teamfights, I don't see it helping him do his job all that much. If anything, I'd prefer a BT over hydra on zed. Along with the base AD difference, the active is a burst of 100% of Zed's AD of course... How does it not help burst down a single target?
Yeah nvm, I thought the active was a stronger version of cleave, my mistake.
On April 08 2013 11:11 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 11:00 beefhamburger wrote:On April 08 2013 10:24 Shikyo wrote:On April 08 2013 10:06 nafta wrote:On April 08 2013 10:03 Shikyo wrote:
So on Zed, why do people build BotRK instead of Ravenous Hydra, assuming it's for the burst? Because of Zed's passive, Hydra's active is going to deal more damage than BotRK active most of the time(except against tanks) and it of course has an extremely low cooldown. It's like a second E, actually dealing even more damage.
Also yeah Draven hardcounters Vayne. Draven can just throw axes at Vayne whenever he feels like and it's a free kill if she doesn't condemn. The active does a lot of dmg and let's you keep up so they can't just slow you and walk away. But he gets an automated shadowed E for 60% slow already... I don't know, I just keep hearing about the BotRK active but Ravenous Hydra's active deals more dmg on a 10 second cooldown, gives more AD so that all of his skills deal more damage, and also... Zed's not really going to be autoing much in the burst, it goes something like R -> E -> aim Q -> hit once, ignite. BotRK passive effect won't really have the time to come into play here, especially as it's imo more important to get the target below 50% hp with the individual burst so that you can finally tag them with your passive. It also feels better outside the ult as well, mainly because of the 10 second cooldown and the double E effect with living shadow. This is of course pure theory but yeah, still makes you wonder. Like the BotRK active is 15% of max hp which is great and all, but Ravenous Hydra active is 100% of Zed's AD which is going to be at like... 300 very early on because of his W passive 25% extra bonus AD, so he's going to be dealing more dmg to squishies for almost the entire game. Also, because of his combo, he won't be autoattacking the opponent when they're at full hp because he wants to use the double slow E first, so the passive really won't be coming into play here. Also please don't talk about "but he doesn't need the waveclear because of his E", first of all more waveclear is never bad and second, the main factor is the 100% AD burst active for his ult combo. Note I do recognize that BotRK active is significantly better than Hydra's, but Hydra gives him more of the stats he needs and the cooldown's much much much much shorter, you can use it multiple times in a teamfight, it's like a second E(higher dmg than E actually) Apart from the base AD difference, how does the active on hydra help zed at all assassinating a single target? I agree hydra is better in lanes to clear quickly or push, but in teamfights, I don't see it helping him do his job all that much. If anything, I'd prefer a BT over hydra on zed. Also, would you really trade a 300 dmg AoE nuke that lifesteals for 25AD(inconsistently)?
I think it depends what your main goal is in any certain game. If it's to burst down their one squishy and get out asap (like vs a 1-4 team), I think BotRK is better. Even if the actives did the same damage (2k hp if you have 300 AD), the slow on botrk will help you get more auto attacks in and deal more damage overall. If you want to deal more consistent damage to the team and don't need to kill that one priority target, then hydra might be better.
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On April 08 2013 10:08 TheYango wrote:
People get BotRK on Zed because BotRK fundamentally pairs well with champs that have heavily end-loaded burst (because BotRK does more damage when they're at high HP, and less damage when they're at low HP, it works well when you have something that can "finish off" the enemy at low HP). Death Mark is a perfect example of a strong end-loaded ability (delayed damage, and the amplified damage is the % current HP damage when the enemy was still at higher HP).
But that assumes you're autoing them a reasonable number of times during your ulti combo (which is the only end-loaded burst) to make use of the 5% current health per hit. You could instead have 50 (63 when you max W) more AD for all your skills to do more damage in ADDITION to your autos.
And you get an activate which competes with BORK's active for adding damage onto your ult, except it's on a 10s cd so you can use it without your ult too, and not worry about it being off cd for your ulti.
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Also you cannot ignore the fact that with BT and Hydra, the active heals for like 800 hp off a ~20 minion wave.
I'll definitely be at least trying Hydra because it just makes much more sense to me.
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On April 08 2013 11:20 Shikyo wrote:
Also you cannot ignore the fact that with BT and Hydra, the active heals for like 800 hp off a ~20 minion wave.
I'll definitely be at least trying Hydra because it just makes much more sense to me.
I've noticed that you won't quite Yango even when responding to him. Is there a reason for this?
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On April 08 2013 11:42 Zdrastochye wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 11:20 Shikyo wrote:
Also you cannot ignore the fact that with BT and Hydra, the active heals for like 800 hp off a ~20 minion wave.
I'll definitely be at least trying Hydra because it just makes much more sense to me. I've noticed that you won't quite Yango even when responding to him. Is there a reason for this?
Doesn't want to leave a paper trail if he's wrong 
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On April 08 2013 11:42 Zdrastochye wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 11:20 Shikyo wrote:
Also you cannot ignore the fact that with BT and Hydra, the active heals for like 800 hp off a ~20 minion wave.
I'll definitely be at least trying Hydra because it just makes much more sense to me. I've noticed that you won't quite Yango even when responding to him. Is there a reason for this?
It's not intentional, no idea. In this case I'm pretty sure my post wasn't directed exclusively at him.
I've noticed you comment on whatever I say without ever contributing in any way apart from some ridicule from time to time. Is there a reason for this?
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Hydra is a bit of a confusing item for me. (this is just from a theoretical perspective, I don't play top lane anyways)
It feels really like a glass cannon item, and I find it hard to drop 3.3K gold on an item that doesn't really add much 1v1 capability as a top laner. It's like a BT that trades a bunch of AD and lifesteal for splash + active (burst).
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On April 08 2013 12:17 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 11:42 Zdrastochye wrote:On April 08 2013 11:20 Shikyo wrote:
Also you cannot ignore the fact that with BT and Hydra, the active heals for like 800 hp off a ~20 minion wave.
I'll definitely be at least trying Hydra because it just makes much more sense to me. I've noticed that you won't quite Yango even when responding to him. Is there a reason for this? It's not intentional, no idea. In this case I'm pretty sure my post wasn't directed exclusively at him. I've noticed you comment on whatever I say without ever contributing in any way apart from some ridicule from time to time. Is there a reason for this?
I always comment on people's posting patterns, it's why I can recall some of them from memory so easily. In fairness to you, you do end up in quite a few of the more interesting discussions.
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On April 08 2013 11:11 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 11:00 beefhamburger wrote:On April 08 2013 10:24 Shikyo wrote:On April 08 2013 10:06 nafta wrote:On April 08 2013 10:03 Shikyo wrote:
So on Zed, why do people build BotRK instead of Ravenous Hydra, assuming it's for the burst? Because of Zed's passive, Hydra's active is going to deal more damage than BotRK active most of the time(except against tanks) and it of course has an extremely low cooldown. It's like a second E, actually dealing even more damage.
Also yeah Draven hardcounters Vayne. Draven can just throw axes at Vayne whenever he feels like and it's a free kill if she doesn't condemn. The active does a lot of dmg and let's you keep up so they can't just slow you and walk away. But he gets an automated shadowed E for 60% slow already... I don't know, I just keep hearing about the BotRK active but Ravenous Hydra's active deals more dmg on a 10 second cooldown, gives more AD so that all of his skills deal more damage, and also... Zed's not really going to be autoing much in the burst, it goes something like R -> E -> aim Q -> hit once, ignite. BotRK passive effect won't really have the time to come into play here, especially as it's imo more important to get the target below 50% hp with the individual burst so that you can finally tag them with your passive. It also feels better outside the ult as well, mainly because of the 10 second cooldown and the double E effect with living shadow. This is of course pure theory but yeah, still makes you wonder. Like the BotRK active is 15% of max hp which is great and all, but Ravenous Hydra active is 100% of Zed's AD which is going to be at like... 300 very early on because of his W passive 25% extra bonus AD, so he's going to be dealing more dmg to squishies for almost the entire game. Also, because of his combo, he won't be autoattacking the opponent when they're at full hp because he wants to use the double slow E first, so the passive really won't be coming into play here. Also please don't talk about "but he doesn't need the waveclear because of his E", first of all more waveclear is never bad and second, the main factor is the 100% AD burst active for his ult combo. Note I do recognize that BotRK active is significantly better than Hydra's, but Hydra gives him more of the stats he needs and the cooldown's much much much much shorter, you can use it multiple times in a teamfight, it's like a second E(higher dmg than E actually) Apart from the base AD difference, how does the active on hydra help zed at all assassinating a single target? I agree hydra is better in lanes to clear quickly or push, but in teamfights, I don't see it helping him do his job all that much. If anything, I'd prefer a BT over hydra on zed. Along with the base AD difference, the active is a burst of 100% of Zed's AD of course, which is then again boosted by his W passive... How does it not help burst down a single target? Also, would you really trade a 300 dmg AoE nuke that lifesteals for 25AD(inconsistently)?
BotRK's active gets doubled by his ult. For a 300 ad Zed, Hydra's active falls behind at 2k max health. He's an assassin, so bursting a single person down is what he's all about.
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I find quoting in the very next post to be a waste of time, even if someone sneaks one in people generally get what you are trying to say
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On April 08 2013 12:25 Slusher wrote:
I find quoting in the very next post to be a waste of time, even if someone sneaks one in people generally get what you are trying to say
i think its a very useful convention. better safe that sorry.
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EPT
