EPTCharacters like Zed and Akali are naturally completely against this so I disapprove of those. Someone like Ahri is pretty close to an assassin archetype I like.
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
Characters like Zed and Akali are naturally completely against this so I disapprove of those. Someone like Ahri is pretty close to an assassin archetype I like. | ||
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
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LateralusGaming
119 Posts
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
On April 06 2013 01:53 Mensol wrote: i've just watched TPA's Zac/Lulu combo against KLH. gotta love double knock air :3 i kind of like spirit of the elder lizard on an ad too. the extra damage to minions on your biggest damage dealer is pretty sexy for objectives, andit probably helps with ez's slow waveclear. adding that to frozen fist... man that's sexy. also, this is why you dont let stanley 1v1. dat perfect lulu game doe. | ||
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Mondeezy
United States1938 Posts
On April 06 2013 02:57 Shikyo wrote: My solution to the problem of Assassins: Make them able to burst a squishy down instantly like they're supposed to, but enable some counterplay. Diana is a pretty decent example, in my opinion, though still not quite there: She cannot utilize her kit fully if she doesn't land a relatively difficult skillshot. If you heavily outskill the assassin, you should be able to avoid getting instakilled. You should be able to make an amazing play to survive. Another option is to make assassination possible but mechanically difficult. Something like how Elise would be if she was difficult. Characters like Zed and Akali are naturally completely against this so I disapprove of those. Someone like Ahri is pretty close to an assassin archetype I like. I disagree. Ahri is more of a sustained AOE damage dealer, with a "catch out" ability/cc. Diana is also a not-so-great example of what an assassin should be, since she gets tanky as all hell and can still decimate a squishy, whereas other real "assassins" can only do the latter. I like champs like Zed and Akali because they require high skill to properly maneuver through teamfights, and if you get caught in a bad position you pretty much get instagibbed (whereas Diana/K6 can stealth/jump/tank a decent amount of damage). Talon is probably the best example of what a real assassin should be like, but the problem with him is he can get absolutely wrecked in lane by any bruiser whereas the others can at least survive through that. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On April 06 2013 03:08 Mondeezy wrote: I disagree. Ahri is more of a sustained AOE damage dealer, with a "catch out" ability/cc. Diana is also a not-so-great example of what an assassin should be, since she gets tanky as all hell and can still decimate a squishy, whereas other real "assassins" can only do the latter. I like champs like Zed and Akali because they require high skill to properly maneuver through teamfights, and if you get caught in a bad position you pretty much get instagibbed (whereas Diana/K6 can stealth/jump/tank a decent amount of damage). Talon is probably the best example of what a real assassin should be like, but the problem with him is he can get absolutely wrecked in lane by any bruiser whereas the others can at least survive through that. Zed is ridiculous right now though, because he can 1v1 bruisers like Irelia and Jax at the 0 item level, the 1 Dorans blade level, the 1 item level (Think Brut vs. Phage), the big item level (Brut+BT vs. TF), the 2 and 3 item levels, and possibly even the 6 item level. Plus in teamfights he has 2-3 times the burst, with close to the same sustained DPS. On April 06 2013 03:16 Dusty wrote: With Zed's weakness being lacking any tankiness and depending on gold to do his job and bruisers having high base damages..? My post outlines how that is...untrue. | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
Note I didn't mean that Diana and Ahri are good assassins, the concept of requiring a difficult skillshot and the concept of mobility with skillshots are what are good. What ahri actually is or isn't isn't really relevant to my point. | ||
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Dusty
United States3359 Posts
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Slayer91
Ireland23463 Posts
Also assassins with level advantage can get pretty tanky. Zed with warmogs or diana with 2 dorans zhonyas abyssal or something can both be really hard to kill if they get a lot of kills to afford those items. Assassins are really snowbally like that. | ||
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Mondeezy
United States1938 Posts
On April 06 2013 03:13 cLutZ wrote: Zed is ridiculous right now though, because he can 1v1 bruisers like Irelia and Jax at the 0 item level, the 1 Dorans blade level, the 1 item level (Think Brut vs. Phage), the big item level (Brut+BT vs. TF), the 2 and 3 item levels, and possibly even the 6 item level. Plus in teamfights he has 2-3 times the burst, with close to the same sustained DPS. He can 1v1 them if he outplays them, but if he misses something like an E or Q he can lose the trade pretty hard (or if they build some tanky items like rush giant's belt or sunfire). Having played a lot of Zed, a lot of his matchups are skill matchups - you don't just flat out decimate those bruisers, you have to either get ahead or they have to significantly misplay if you want to beat them every single 1v1. His early damage is weak, and the damage from his rank 1 ult is low/laughable when playing as someone tanky like Jax/Reli and building properly. His late game is really strong because he scales well with items, but he can also be shut down against if played against properly. I think Jatt was correct when he said Zed seems so strong right now, because nobody has figured out exactly how to counter him yet. Give it time and we will see how players figure out ways to counter him  On April 06 2013 03:14 Shikyo wrote: I don't see how Talon is a good assassin archetype, especially on the topic of what was discussed earlier? If you get within 700 range of Talon, you're just dead. Nothing you can do. Note I didn't mean that Diana and Ahri are good assassins, the concept of requiring a difficult skillshot and the concept of mobility with skillshots are what are good. What ahri actually is or isn't isn't really relevant to my point. I say Talon is a good example of an assassin because he effectively has to build "tons of damages" to get in, one shot the carry, and get out without getting insta gibbed. IF he misplays, or if he gets caught in a bad position, or goes too hard onto someone, he will get destroyed (providing the other team has a pink ward to throw down for his ult) - similar to how Akali plays. IMO that is what an assassin is defined as in this game to me - a champ who has high mobility/damage as well as high risk/high reward. You have to get in the middle of the fight, take out a high priority target without getting CC'd to all hell and dying, and try to get out alive. I say Diana is a poor example of this design-wise because even if she goes all in and initiates the fight, she can still do a crapton of damage to the carry while tanking significant amounts of damage and then Zhonyas -> rinse and repeat. If someone like Zed, Akali, or Talon initiated that fight, they'd probably get instagibbed, but Diana can initiate, roll the carry, tank the damage, and be disruptive with her mini-Ori ult all at once. Then again free week Diana has made me extremely salty towards her, so... | ||
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
On April 06 2013 03:14 Shikyo wrote: I don't see how Talon is a good assassin archetype, especially on the topic of what was discussed earlier? If you get within 700 range of Talon, you're just dead. Nothing you can do. Note I didn't mean that Diana and Ahri are good assassins, the concept of requiring a difficult skillshot and the concept of mobility with skillshots are what are good. What ahri actually is or isn't isn't really relevant to my point. Talon's a great assassin. If he catches a target 1v1 that he can instagib, he instagibs them. The counterplay is to be with a team and for them to CC his combo and force him to use his ult to survive rather than kill. He brings minimal (if any) teamfight utility and can't do much to tankier champs, unlike other "assassins". | ||
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kongoline
6318 Posts
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Slayer91
Ireland23463 Posts
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
On April 06 2013 03:20 Slayer91 wrote: That's not specific to zed at all, just every assassins weakness and bruisers strength, just he rest of them can't 1v1 bruisers. Also assassins with level advantage can get pretty tanky. Zed with warmogs or diana with 2 dorans zhonyas abyssal or something can both be really hard to kill if they get a lot of kills to afford those items. Assassins are really snowbally like that. I dunno when I watched Shen vs Zed in some chinese match, Navi was talking about how Shen just dumps on Zed because he's too tanky at all points for zed to handle and just bruisertanks Zed down. Sure, if Zed gets an advantage before getting dominated then Shen would have a hard time catching up in the tankiness war because it's hard to catch up in farm when you're getting outbullied, but thats more a "1v1 in a long lane" snowbally issue than anything specific about assassins. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23463 Posts
maybe a bit too much compared to other guys like talon which are completely redundant in comparision. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On April 06 2013 03:27 kongoline wrote: zed doesnt win early trades with bruisers wtf, diana is alot better vs them she also pretty much shits on zed and any bruiser post lvl9+ Zed should definitively lose trades with bruisers at every powerpoint of the game. Or he needs some other weakness to account for his ability to ranged farm, and assassinate in teamfights, and have good sustained damage in teamfights. Edit: Also As a general rule, people need to understand that there needs to be a "Burst Damage Tax", because burst is much better than sustained damage for a variety of reasons. | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On April 06 2013 03:35 cLutZ wrote: Zed should definitively lose trades with bruisers at every powerpoint of the game. Or he needs some other weakness to account for his ability to ranged farm, and assassinate in teamfights, and have good sustained damage in teamfights. I also feel like his ability to harrass from like 1500 range with quite siginificant damage is pretty dumb for a melee | ||
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h3r1n6
Iceland2039 Posts
On April 06 2013 03:29 Slayer91 wrote: wtf she can't even beat gragas in lane But Gragas beats almost everything as long as he hits his stuff. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23463 Posts
Not like he has the most precise of skillshots. He's a beefy guy sure but people usually pick him only against certain laners (anivia, diana for example) | ||
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nyxnyxnyx
Indonesia2978 Posts
-physical -negligible AoE -no CC (weak slow) physical damage was always 'worse' than magic damage. the turret damage buff made it slightly more so | ||
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