EPTTheres just no point in playing Mundo or Udyr who have comparable clear times to the better junglers, but they can't jump around a fight killing people, all while building little to no damage and mostly tank.
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Cloud9157
United States2968 Posts
Theres just no point in playing Mundo or Udyr who have comparable clear times to the better junglers, but they can't jump around a fight killing people, all while building little to no damage and mostly tank. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
The "is she a viable support" question more comes from does she have enough team presence after the early game without having gold, in comparison to other viable supports. I have no idea mind, I just know Syndra is a jerk in mid lane. | ||
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jcarlsoniv
United States27922 Posts
I haven't had an "idk what the fuck I'm doing" moment with a champ in a while. But that's how I felt with her at first. After playing so many Karma games, the range on Lissandra's Q felt so stunted. But she's really fun. Her E is absurdly useful in so many different situations. They definitely nailed the frost Mage feel. | ||
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discator
Germany639 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On April 06 2013 01:04 LoCicero wrote: My statement wasn't that those group of assassins are OP right now, it's that they have been changed multiple times in an attempt to balance them. In my opinion, assassins have been the hardest character group for riot to properly balance due to the fact that mobility and damage are some of the two most important aspects of this game, and getting both in a kit can cause balance problems (as most assassins have). We had the discussion an assassin balance a while back, and for my part, this is what I got out of the discussion: - The nature of an assassin fundamentally trades teamfighting ability for solo-killing/ganking ability (teamfighting power is governed primarily by disables and AoE damage, while assassins typically trade these off for single-target damage and mobility). - Solo-killing as a function in teamfights is inherently volatile. Either you one-shot a high-value target and instantly turn the fight into a 5v4, or you fail (and possibly get counter-killed) and have very little practical usefulness to the fight from there on out due to your lack of the "core" teamfighting functions (AoE and disables). This makes assassins extremely snowbally, and their balance fundamentally hard to reach due to how different winning and losing with assassins can be. - Riot is at an impasse with the assassin concept--while they like the idea of an assassin, the actual gameplay that comprises an assassin's kit is antithetical to other aspects of their design philosophy (solo-killing power is VERY "anti-fun" and assassins by nature have lopsided kits that favor solo-killing and ganking over teamfighting, whereas Riot generally aims for rounded champion kits). | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
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kongoline
6318 Posts
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jcarlsoniv
United States27922 Posts
On April 06 2013 01:18 kongoline wrote: its fine NA will get their free IP boosts again Your sacrifice for our benefit has been noted ;P | ||
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
On April 06 2013 01:16 Numy wrote: So what you saying is Riot should just bite the bullet and man up allowing more lopsided kits. While I dislike comparing games, I think Riot needs to take a page out of Valve's balancing book. It's ok if something is supposedly OP if everything else is too. Too much tiptoeing around the "anti-fun" mechanics can create an anti-fun experience for the champions that are designed around them. To wit: assassins. Either they're anti-fun to play against (instagibbing anything not building defenses) or they're anti-fun to play (nerfed into uselessness because Riot's scared of whatever). Obviously it's not one or the other in such an extreme state, but it can certainly feel that way when one champion is steamrolling your game singlehandedly, or when a champ you play gets gutted because Riot feels they're too anti-fun/imbalanced. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
Take 1v2 laning as it exists right now for example. 1v2 laning feels incredibly hopeless right now because there's no alternatives to just hoping you don't die to the dive. You can't farm the jungle because Riot decided it sucks too much for the jungler if you can just take camps all the time. You can't gank mid because Riot decided it sucks for people to be able to die to level 1/2 ganks so easily. Essentially then, the 1v2 laner is stuck because anything that he could do is blocked by the fact that being allowed to do those things would be un-fun for someone else. But that in turn means the game is un-fun for him because he can't do anything. | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
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Mondeezy
United States1938 Posts
I feel like players in soloQ will just pick whatever they want though instead of picking a lineup to shut out the assassin and practically make the game a 5v4. I remember playing vs a Kayle/Zil/Janna comp, holy crap talk about feeling useless as Zed. While they are strong, it's just a different skillset that has to be dealt with a different way. Edit: Then again I could be biased because almost all of my mains are high mobility damage dealers.. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
About Zac I put the emphasis on the s of jumps, because I meant he only has his E, but his ult doesn't jump obstacles (hence the non-plural). About Talon he's a less-safe AD version of LeBlanc with more AoE and less cc later in the game. His laning phase is pretty fun although he's very susceptible to being ganked (you can still use his E to counter a gap closer like Lee Sin's Q, Vi's Q or Jarvan's EQ, or try to slow a Volibear/Udyr, but it usually won't be enough and he has nothing against Maokai/Xin/etc.), if your opponent isn't half bad there's a lot to do around baiting his E (that's a very long cooldown for a teleport that can only gap close, although the range is above average). He has higher burst than Katarina but isn't as safe as Shunpo, and his mana costs make it so you can somewhat easily run him oom if you shove the waves or force him to harass a lot with W without giving openings for E (I really don't like getting bruta on him, I'll often stay in lane and lose a few kill opportunities so I can back and get a BFS, it's crucial so help his W one-shot the ranged minions and later the whole wave, since his roaming is pretty strong). About Loci's answer, I feel like Pantheon and Talon are better designs than Zed or Kha'Zix—Talon's weak by nature of being an assassin (arranged teams will shut him down in fights, or downright punish the pick in champ select, and being a mid he makes you lose out on a lot of what a mid like Orianna or TF could bring you in terms of teamfighting and synergy), and Pantheon's very binary curve (laning monster when people don't go for the goddamn full pots opening, weak teamfighting when his E can't shred half the team's health anymore) may be a flaw. But apart from that they're champs giving a lot of room to counterplay, with obvious weaknesses (no escape for Panth, Talon's harms his damage in general/trade potential in lane a lot), clear power curves, potential to one-shot squishies but leaving room for teamwork (a Lulu won't do shit to a fed Kha'Zix, Zed's dps is high enough that even if she makes his ult assassination fail he'll have the damage to finish off his target anyway; Talon and Panth have no escape, weak dps and rely on timing (HSS' channel, Cutthroat's damage amp) so a single cc can prevent a 100-0 and after that they're in a more perilous position, unable to run but usually without the damage to finish the remaining health of the target). I wish Riot would make them the baseline assassins, rather than powercreep like mad with jack of all trades, masters of several like the more recent ones. You need weaknesses for a champ to be fun. | ||
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
Diana and Kha (and Vi as well, though she's not as prevalent) just seem like they bring too much. Diana has a lot of teamfight potential, and being AP based with high bases allows her to build Tanky AP stuff like Zhonya/Abyssal so she can be super tanky and still instagib targets. Kha would feel fine as an assassin kit, but for some reason he also has a heal, Damage Reduction, and pretty good base stats that make him way too durable. He has very little cause to fear jumping in after a W or two, since he can outtrade pretty much anyone. I think that's the core. Assassins really shouldn't have trading power or super good poke, they should require all-in-ing or high risk to do anything. Diana, Kha, and Xin/Vi (who aren't really assassins but sort of act like it) just have no risk on nearly anything they do unless it's really, really stupid. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
Even without his ult he's actually one of the strongest 1v1ers of the game, and he has the free wave clear to get the necessary farm, that's why he's even strong as a splitpusher, since he can win most 1v1, escape 1v2+ more easily than others (though a good wall-jump and ult from Kha'Zix, or Pantheon's ult do the trick too). On the other hand Talon's weak because he has to build squishy to deal damage so he dies too fast to have sustained damage, but his 4s cd aa reset on Q makes him pretty apt at killing towers if left alone. | ||
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
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Mondeezy
United States1938 Posts
On April 06 2013 01:47 Alaric wrote: When you have 25% additional AD and the ability to actually spam your E on cd (only 3s) for several dozen seconds (particularly once W has a higher level) thanks to energy regen and the W mechanic, you're actually super strong at sustained damage. He can either get BT/LW, call it a day and tank up while having 35+ AD than other champs from items alone (up to another 5 from runes depending on his set), or build some more offense and further increase his damage (and sustain through lifesteal). Even without his ult he's actually one of the strongest 1v1ers of the game, and he has the free wave clear to get the necessary farm, that's why he's even strong as a splitpusher, since he can win most 1v1, escape 1v2+ more easily than others (though a good wall-jump and ult from Kha'Zix, or Pantheon's ult do the trick too). On the other hand Talon's weak because he has to build squishy to deal damage so he dies too fast to have sustained damage, but his 4s cd aa reset on Q makes him pretty apt at killing towers if left alone. In order to spam your E though, you either have to use your "escape"(which costs a bunch of energy) or be in the middle of everything. I could see them slightly nerfing E damage in the near future (just to punish his waveclear a bit) but other than that he seems fine to me. A QSS/Zhonya will completely negate his ult as it is, and Q is pretty damn hard to use effectively for damage. On April 06 2013 01:51 Requizen wrote: So what would be the over/under on reducing or removing the free AD Zed gets to force him to build more squishy? I don't think much would change, to be honest. He is still going to have great killing power and will still be locked down fairly easily once his W is blown. His lategame would be toned down a pretty decent amount due to the % stat loss (After you get your BT/LW), so I think they could compensate for it by shortening his W cooldown by a couple of seconds if they were to go that route. That being said, I know Riot doesn't like giving out free stats, so maybe they will go that way as well. Wouldn't really change his safe-farming/split pushing ability though. | ||
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Mensol
14536 Posts
gotta love double knock air :3 | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
A bit like Kha'Zix actually has good dps thanks to Qs intertwined with autos, and possibly jukes if there are bushes nearby, but during the course of an actual fight E resets and passive resets through his ult will actually give him enough burst to hide the dps potential. About Zed I dunno, I didn't really play him tbh, but I remember some I saw in situations where assassins would typically fall of, and without being fed he was still the most relevant member of the team along with his AD carry (he was actually more relevant in the first game where I noticed it, but because it was Cait, and with warmogs+GA he was harder to kill than her). Then I ran some numbers and realised how huge they are. | ||
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Serelitz
Netherlands2895 Posts
Guess I'm back to practicing SC2. | ||
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