[Patch 3.05.1: Karma Remake] General Discussion - Page 10

mordek

United States12705 Posts

March 28 2013 15:58 GMT

#181

Say you're not running LS quints as an AD carry. When do you guys prioritize getting a vamp or cutlass? How does it vary from champ to champ? I'm curious on the timing of LS in lane.

obesechicken13

United States10467 Posts

March 28 2013 16:06 GMT

#182

On March 29 2013 00:48 thenexusp wrote:

Show nested quote +

On March 29 2013 00:27 ticklishmusic wrote:

On March 29 2013 00:02 Requizen wrote:

On March 28 2013 23:57 ticklishmusic wrote:
Zac has a decent amount of mobility with his spells, so he can try and position himself to grab more blobs.

But again, at the same time, you're wasting spells hunting down blobs rather than fighting or protecting your team.

I know I'm nitpicking and being a downer, but I was really excited for Zac and I'm just frustrated that this flaw is going to make him damn near unplayable in my eyes. Like, if you run in and use a QWE combo (whatever order is best, I'm guessing EWQ), you're out 12% life (probably doing more damage to yourself than they did to you) and they get to just attack you while you scramble around trying to pick up blobs.

True. I'm thinking the way his ult works is that it does damage to nearby enemies, so you could in theory just hop to blobs near champions or something-- you have 4 bounces, so there's quite a few pathways you could take in a X range containing Y blobs and Z champions. His model can change shape/size, so that helps him grab stuff too.*

*I have never actually played Zac

On March 29 2013 00:27 obesechicken13 wrote:

On March 28 2013 23:53 101toss wrote:

On March 28 2013 23:49 thenexusp wrote:

On March 28 2013 23:46 onlywonderboy wrote:

On March 28 2013 23:43 mordek wrote:
From the lolwiki: "The passive must have at least a value of 28g for Spirit Visage to be gold efficient."
Even if blobs are difficult to pick up, it makes each one you do more effective.

People always seem to forget how cheap Spirit Visage actually is. Even if you're not utilizing the passive it's already incredibly close to cost effective.

its cost-efficiency shouldn't be evaluated in a vacuum though. Like, I'd have trouble buying it even on someone like mundo if the enemy had a 5x AD team.

mr is worth 0 gold vs a 5ad team

Nah. MR is still worth 100% gold vs a riven riven riven riven tryn team. (with no wits end or sunfire cape or stuff).

It just has 0 effectiveness.

We should implement an "effective gold" system which values AD/AP/MR/Armor based on the opponent's damage types (like fine their total DPS and find what percentage is physical/magical) trololol. #lolstats

CALCULUS HOMEWORK

Given that fraction of incoming damage is p physical and (1-p) magical, and that health costs 2.6g per point, armor 18g per point, and MR 18g per point, and that your base health is 1200, your base armor is 60, and your base MR is 30, what fraction of your gold should you spend on health, armor, and MR?

You could make a bunch of equations and then solve.

unknowns are health armor and mr.
total health is base health + items health
total unmitigated physical damage, armor, total unmitigated magic damage, mr = total mitigated damage
total gold = gold spent on health, armor, mr
...

Then use basic algebra, or that stuff they taught us in linear algebra to solve the system of linear equations.
I wouldn't do the math though. Sounds useless once you consider other confounding factors.

101toss

3232 Posts

March 28 2013 16:09 GMT

#183

On March 29 2013 00:58 mordek wrote:
Say you're not running LS quints as an AD carry. When do you guys prioritize getting a vamp or cutlass? How does it vary from champ to champ? I'm curious on the timing of LS in lane.

When I play on my noobstomp account I go bravesword2->vamp stick immediately for all adc

Personally think bork is meh and rush bt instead

Mensol

14536 Posts

March 28 2013 16:17 GMT

#184

i have been playing nothing but singed these days. i want to see Shy's singed on new patch~~~!

More Korean LoL tournaments plx!

StrigHT

United States49 Posts

March 28 2013 16:22 GMT

#185

Quick question - and maybe this has been discussed here before:

Is there a place for Support Ashe? Sure, there are probably certain match-ups that don't work, but purely from a kit standpoint:

-AoE Slow
-Consistent single target slow
-Mini-Clairvoyence
-Initiate with arrow stays useful regardless of farm
-Her passive is actually useful, as sporadic harrassment will allow her time to build her crit chance.

Have any of you tried this? What holds it back?

obesechicken13

United States10467 Posts

March 28 2013 16:25 GMT

#186

On March 29 2013 01:22 StrigHT wrote:
Quick question - and maybe this has been discussed here before:

Is there a place for Support Ashe? Sure, there are probably certain match-ups that don't work, but purely from a kit standpoint:

-AoE Slow
-Consistent single target slow
-Mini-Clairvoyence
-Initiate with arrow stays useful regardless of farm
-Her passive is actually useful, as sporadic harrassment will allow her time to build her crit chance.

Have any of you tried this? What holds it back?

People have tried it. It's not conventional support. Other champs are built for support.

Badboyrune

Sweden2247 Posts

March 28 2013 16:27 GMT

#187

Buffed turret damage combined with limitless vision is going to make pro games even less eventful. Watching american LCS after these changes hit is likely to be less entertaining than watching paint dry.

Also I'm not sure completely killing off both rumble and hecarim is a good thing

IntoTheWow

is awesome32281 Posts

March 28 2013 16:30 GMT

#188

Do we know when servers are coming up?

Dusty

United States3359 Posts

March 28 2013 16:32 GMT

#189

http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/1b6b5x/rumble_ult_changes_indepth_dmg_analysis_and/

i think people can stop crying about the rumble ult nerf now

Vanka

China1336 Posts

March 28 2013 16:38 GMT

#190

She's really squishy, requires some attack speed to be really useful (i.e. farm), and takes up ramp up time. Her poke is nowhere like sona's or lulu's, and is harder than either of the other two to not push the lane while poking. If you max volley first you'll have to wait a long while before you're actually slowing significant amounts, and if you max frost shot first you'll have a 15 second cd on volley. That just leaves her as effectively an ult bot and free clavoriance with no real peel for your ad for the first half of the game, and you add that anyone with hard cc or a gap closer in bot lane will destroy her or force your ad to be denied cs means she doesn't exactly shine as a support.

Badboyrune

Sweden2247 Posts

March 28 2013 16:39 GMT

#191

I've tried it. I would say that it's not bad. The biggest issue I would say is that Lulu exists and she just does most of the things that Ashe does better, except initiate. If you have initiation I don't see why you would ever pick Ashe over Lulu.

Other downsides is that she is quite level dependent. You need to level volley to be useful in lane, but to have any kind of peeling power you need decent levels in the slow. Because of the lack of cc on early levels and immobility aggressive supports can give you a very hard time. Ashe vs leona is just not fun.

Third issue is that you need to have someone to be able to peel for your ad. Against assassins with gap closers you're just not going to be as useful as a Lulu later in the game.

I'd say it's not bad, just very situational. If you get into a position where you want a harass heavy lane, you are facing a team with one or two bruisers and you either can't pick Lulu or need initiation Ashe is probably a good pick.

emperorchampion

Canada9496 Posts

March 28 2013 16:40 GMT

#192

On March 29 2013 01:30 IntoTheWow wrote:
Do we know when servers are coming up?

They were up for a while, then went down again. So soonish (tm)?

ticklishmusic

United States15977 Posts

March 28 2013 16:43 GMT

#193

btw

zac gets bigger the more hp you build on him (or as he levels)

im not sure

obesechicken13

United States10467 Posts

March 28 2013 16:47 GMT

#194

On March 29 2013 01:30 IntoTheWow wrote:
Do we know when servers are coming up?

6 hours after server maintenance started in the RoG snooping into their logs.

On March 29 2013 01:43 ticklishmusic wrote:
btw

zac gets bigger the more hp you build on him (or as he levels)

im not sure

HP. Someone did a 6 warmogs Zac a few days ago. It'd be fun to have lulu ulted Cho with Dominion buff vs 6 warmogs lulu ulted Zac with dominion buff. Gozilla!

IntoTheWow

is awesome32281 Posts

March 28 2013 16:48 GMT

#195

On March 29 2013 01:43 ticklishmusic wrote:
btw

zac gets bigger the more hp you build on him (or as he levels)

im not sure

Yeah, there was a pic on reddit showing him with 6 warmogs standing next to baron.

ticklishmusic

United States15977 Posts

March 28 2013 16:49 GMT

#196

On March 29 2013 01:48 IntoTheWow wrote:

Show nested quote +

Yeah, there was a pic on reddit showing him with 6 warmogs standing next to baron.

i love how if you e something so it dies he engulfs it too.

this champ 2cute

Requizen

United States33802 Posts

March 28 2013 17:11 GMT

#197

Lissandraaaaaa

[image loading]

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=36067852#post36067852

thenexusp

United States3721 Posts

March 28 2013 17:17 GMT

#198

On March 29 2013 02:11 Requizen wrote:
Lissandraaaaaa

[image loading]

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=36067852#post36067852

first thought: Did she steal caitlyn's hat? Or is that just the design of her throne

Also it's exceedingly obvious that lissandra is the ice witch lol

AsmodeusXI

United States15536 Posts

March 28 2013 17:25 GMT

#199

On March 29 2013 02:17 thenexusp wrote:

Show nested quote +

first thought: Did she steal caitlyn's hat? Or is that just the design of her throne

Also it's exceedingly obvious that lissandra is the ice witch lol

omg no wai

Serious note: I do love it when a set of things comes together. Now we have three Ice Queens (or whatever).

Now give me Irelia's brother kthx.

emperorchampion

Canada9496 Posts

March 28 2013 17:28 GMT

#200

On March 29 2013 01:06 obesechicken13 wrote:

Show nested quote +

On March 29 2013 00:48 thenexusp wrote:

On March 29 2013 00:27 ticklishmusic wrote:

On March 29 2013 00:02 Requizen wrote:

On March 28 2013 23:57 ticklishmusic wrote:
Zac has a decent amount of mobility with his spells, so he can try and position himself to grab more blobs.

On March 29 2013 00:27 obesechicken13 wrote:

On March 28 2013 23:53 101toss wrote:

On March 28 2013 23:49 thenexusp wrote:

On March 28 2013 23:46 onlywonderboy wrote:

People always seem to forget how cheap Spirit Visage actually is. Even if you're not utilizing the passive it's already incredibly close to cost effective.

its cost-efficiency shouldn't be evaluated in a vacuum though. Like, I'd have trouble buying it even on someone like mundo if the enemy had a 5x AD team.

mr is worth 0 gold vs a 5ad team

Nah. MR is still worth 100% gold vs a riven riven riven riven tryn team. (with no wits end or sunfire cape or stuff).

It just has 0 effectiveness.

Here are my thoughts on how to best approach this problem. It could be an interesting thought exercise, I kind of doubt it would yield any real meaningful results though.

This would work by calculating a bunch of functions (g, p, and m, ...) before hand then optimizing based off of them.


Variables
x1= health ; x2= armour ; x3= mr
g= estimated gold at time = t ; p= estimated phys damage at time = t ; m= estimated magic dmg at time = t

Objective Function
Maximize: Z= x1+ x2+ x3

Constraints
2.6x1+ 18x2+ 18x3 <= g ;total expenses less than total gold
(some linear function involving ehp vs physical) >= p ;make sure will survive physical damage
(some linear function involving ehp vs magic) >= m ; make sure will survive magic damage
...

Some thoughts:
-make x1, x2, and x3 all fractions ie, you should spend x1% of gold on health -- as it is now it's just spend x1 gold on health
-make p and m fractions of total damage; total damage would be a function of t, and depend on what you're playing
-g could be a function of t, that would involve some rate that you could calculate yourself based on: position (solo top, solo mid, ect), passive gold gain, last hitting ability, ect

-This would change what the optimal amount spent for each player, each role, and champ would be. So a pro player who might have a much higher gold value at a given time would get different stats

-a lot of functions would probably be piecewise, could account for power swings ie, if you could find that death cap was bought at a certain point in time on average there would be a spike in the m function at that point

-can add constraints based on regens

-maybe make it overall item buys, would be position specific by saying I want y% of damage stats and (1-y)% defense stats or something of the like, could account for different players and different levels of skill

-maybe maximize ehp?

Anyhow, I could go on. This is a very basic form that would obviously need a lot of work and research (research would need data, ie Riot data or parsable replays or something). As I said it probably wouldn't yield any interesting results because it's pretty intuitive anyhow, plus there are so many variables to consider that it would have to be calculated on the fly. Either that or you'd have to calculate a whole bunch of scenarios before hand. Maybe it could be useful as some sort of post game analysis, I dunno.

Servers pls come back!

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