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On March 08 2013 01:22 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2013 01:17 Slayer91 wrote:On March 07 2013 20:08 BlueBird. wrote:On March 07 2013 18:55 Slayer91 wrote:old karma: ![[image loading]](http://media.giantbomb.com/uploads/0/8271/1749870-43_large.jpg) amg totally flat chested and now stripper guys rite hurr hurr riot so sexist you know theres a problem when people bring slut shaming into LoL gimmie a break. I'm not following the discussion at all.. But I'd like to jump in here. However I think your confusing what slut shaming is Maybe I missed something, and someone called karma a hoar because of her outfit, then your correct. Portraying every women in league of legends as a sexual object that is not Annie is not a good thing for the game, while its fine to have some hyper sexualized characters if it fits that character but, there should be a balance, just like in real life, and league has not found that balance. (it's so far from that balance it's not funny ) it's not really hyper sexualisation at all. All the male characters are hugely well muscled, but nobody complains about that. It's just they are making them traditionally attractive. If you're at a ball the men all wear full tuxedos and the women are wearing gowns, its just how shit works. I really don't see what you expect them to make female characters look like. like how the fuck can something that's not an object be a sex object?? Favorite video regarding this subject: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/the-big-picture/5950-Tropes-vs-MovieBob
Ohh, I completely forgot about that tropes vs women kickstarter thing. Did she ever get around to making the videos?
I think the Karma rework looks fine (fine as in fine, not as in "damn girl you fine"), I like it a bit better than the remake of the classical skin. In my opinion they should have put her in a burka though.
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On March 08 2013 01:34 Slayer91 wrote:
Sorry is that guy trying to say that women don't get jobs because guys only want girls that look like the ones they see in video games??
People care more about womens appearance (not strictly true either, come to a job interview poorly dressed with a terrible haircut and unshaven see how well you do, it's just more regimented and simple on how to make yourself look decent for men) therefore video games should have more fat and ugly women?
And men are allowed to see super buff men as self-image fantasy but women aren't?
This is the most retarded argument I've heard thus far.
Shit women have plenty of problems but blaming it on video games is no better than the guys in the US trying to ban video games because someone who killed people happened to also play video games. (compare to people who havent played any at all, lets go to poor places, oh wait murderers are even worse there nvm)
I've seen sensible arguments about female armour in games where fair enough it clearly won't provide protection for example but this is just dumb.
Not video games at all, but if you don't think sexism in the workplace exists (yes, even in the hiring process) that's kind of naive. It wasn't even focusing on the work thing at all, he mentioned it in passing in a single sentence.
But that wasn't the point of the video. The point was that the "because lots of male characters are buff it's sexist both ways" argument is kind of flimsy at best.
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I never said shit about sexism in the workplace I only said blaming it on video games is retarded.
The point of the video I just argued against, you just mentioned it again and didn't defend it at all when his only argument was that it promotes sexism by making both sexes attractive or something
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On March 07 2013 23:39 overt wrote:
How on Earth would people think that Lulu, one of the strongest lane supports and arguably the most versatile support, is harder to play than Janna, the notoriously bad at lane phase support who has an ability that can cause her team to just lose games if she messes it up?
What exactly is hard about Janna? You shield your ADC, knock up the enemy ADC (or Leona/Alistar dashing to your ADC), and maybe use Zephyr. Ults require some thought but it's not like Janna is fundamentally difficult to play.
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On March 08 2013 01:34 Slayer91 wrote:
Sorry is that guy trying to say that women don't get jobs because guys only want girls that look like the ones they see in video games??
People care more about womens appearance (not strictly true either, come to a job interview poorly dressed with a terrible haircut and unshaven see how well you do) therefore video games should have more fat and ugly women?
And men are allowed to see super buff men as self-image fantasy but women aren't?
This is the most retarded argument I've heard thus far.
You've completely missed every point in the video. To answer your questions in order:- No, he's trying to say that a woman's appearance affects how she is judged and perceived more than is the case for her male peers, and her actual achievements or abilities have less weight.
- The problem is that a woman's achievements/intelligence/abilities are secondary to her appearances. Because this is not the case for men, you can have depictions of men that do not conform with "standards" of beauty. But because a woman's appearance is such a huge part of how she is judged (not the only part, just disproportionately weighted) you can't do the same.
- It's not that women can't have fantasies about buff men, but that the depictions of men you see in video games are primarily designed for the benefit/enjoyment of male gamers, not female gamers.
He's not blaming video games as some sort of sole source of the problem, but is trying to highlight how they, as part of our culture and media, are a contributor to the problem and are not above criticism.
Here's a good article on how appearances affect women differently from men: http://www9.georgetown.edu/faculty/tannend/nyt062093.htm
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On March 08 2013 01:49 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2013 01:34 Slayer91 wrote:
Sorry is that guy trying to say that women don't get jobs because guys only want girls that look like the ones they see in video games??
People care more about womens appearance (not strictly true either, come to a job interview poorly dressed with a terrible haircut and unshaven see how well you do) therefore video games should have more fat and ugly women?
And men are allowed to see super buff men as self-image fantasy but women aren't?
This is the most retarded argument I've heard thus far. You've completely missed every point in the video. To answer your questions in order: - No, he's trying to say that a woman's appearance affects how she is judged and perceived more than is the case for her male peers, and her actual achievements or abilities have less weight.
- The problem is that a woman's achievements/intelligence/abilities are secondary to her appearances. Because this is not the case for men, you can have depictions of men that do not conform with "standards" of beauty. But because a woman's appearance is such a huge part of how she is judged (not the only part, just disproportionately weighted) you can't do the same.
- It's not that women can't have fantasies about buff men, but that the depictions of men you see in video games are primarily designed for the benefit/enjoyment of male gamers, not female gamers.
What's this got to do with video games?
If the demographic is 95% male its just a business choice at point 3.
As I said the argument that this somehow promotes sexism holds no more weight than playing doom promotes mass murderers.
edit:
On March 08 2013 01:49 Seuss wrote:
He's not blaming video games as some sort of sole source of the problem, but is trying to highlight how they, as part of our culture and media, are a contributor to the problem and are not above criticism.
Sexism has been around a lot longer and much worse than media has. I think probably sexism has decreased a lot even if it might not yet be as eglatarian as hunter gatherer societies.
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On March 08 2013 01:44 Slayer91 wrote:
I never said shit about sexism in the workplace I only said blaming it on video games is retarded.
The point of the video I just argued against, you just mentioned it again and didn't defend it at all when his only argument was that it promotes sexism by making both sexes attractive or something
Did you finish the video? The point was this: Who do you think they're designing these models for? Like he said, Game companies never looked at women as a real demographic until relatively recently. Even now, as a random number I'd say 85% of marketing is targeted towards the 18-25 male demographic. To say that attractive females in games are being designed for the female body image fantasy rather than the male sexual fantasy is highly, highly unlikely.
I'm not saying anything against Riot, I'm just saying your argument is pretty silly. I highly doubt that Riot reworked Karma's look because they wanted women to buy her, and they likely didn't design Garen's buff physique for them either.
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On March 08 2013 01:52 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2013 01:44 Slayer91 wrote:
I never said shit about sexism in the workplace I only said blaming it on video games is retarded.
The point of the video I just argued against, you just mentioned it again and didn't defend it at all when his only argument was that it promotes sexism by making both sexes attractive or something Did you finish the video? The point was this: Who do you think they're designing these models for? Like he said, Game companies never looked at women as a real demographic until relatively recently. Even now, as a random number I'd say 85% of marketing is targeted towards the 18-25 male demographic. To say that attractive females in games are being designed for the female body image fantasy rather than the male sexual fantasy is highly, highly unlikely. I'm not saying anything against Riot, I'm just saying your argument is pretty silly. I highly doubt that Riot reworked Karma's look because they wanted women to buy her, and they likely didn't design Garen's buff physique for them either.
Yes I did. What's wrong with designing models for your target demographic? There is lots of chocolate and shit designed for women.
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On March 08 2013 01:53 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2013 01:52 Requizen wrote:On March 08 2013 01:44 Slayer91 wrote:
I never said shit about sexism in the workplace I only said blaming it on video games is retarded.
The point of the video I just argued against, you just mentioned it again and didn't defend it at all when his only argument was that it promotes sexism by making both sexes attractive or something Did you finish the video? The point was this: Who do you think they're designing these models for? Like he said, Game companies never looked at women as a real demographic until relatively recently. Even now, as a random number I'd say 85% of marketing is targeted towards the 18-25 male demographic. To say that attractive females in games are being designed for the female body image fantasy rather than the male sexual fantasy is highly, highly unlikely. I'm not saying anything against Riot, I'm just saying your argument is pretty silly. I highly doubt that Riot reworked Karma's look because they wanted women to buy her, and they likely didn't design Garen's buff physique for them either. Yes I did. What's wrong with designing models for your target demographic? There is lots of chocolate and shit designed for women.
There isn't anything wrong with it, I never said there was. But when female models are designed to be hourglass figures and showing skin, saying "it's not sexualization" is, well, false.
Edit: sexualization, not sexism. Typo.
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It's funny to me that the same people who said the new Sona splash art was worse are the ones saying the new Karma look is oversexualized.
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I'm still constantly puzzled by the way perfumes are marketed to people though, be it men or women. 'dem ads.
^ I didn't feel like the original Sona's splash was oversexualised but that's because I never paid attention to her breasts I guess, when I looked at it her face and instrument were what caught my eye (hence my disappointment with the new splash, as I felt that her stance and gaze in it didn't click with the image her concept/lore/judgment/quotes gave me of her).
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On March 08 2013 01:51 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2013 01:49 Seuss wrote:On March 08 2013 01:34 Slayer91 wrote:
Sorry is that guy trying to say that women don't get jobs because guys only want girls that look like the ones they see in video games??
People care more about womens appearance (not strictly true either, come to a job interview poorly dressed with a terrible haircut and unshaven see how well you do) therefore video games should have more fat and ugly women?
And men are allowed to see super buff men as self-image fantasy but women aren't?
This is the most retarded argument I've heard thus far. You've completely missed every point in the video. To answer your questions in order: - No, he's trying to say that a woman's appearance affects how she is judged and perceived more than is the case for her male peers, and her actual achievements or abilities have less weight.
- The problem is that a woman's achievements/intelligence/abilities are secondary to her appearances. Because this is not the case for men, you can have depictions of men that do not conform with "standards" of beauty. But because a woman's appearance is such a huge part of how she is judged (not the only part, just disproportionately weighted) you can't do the same.
- It's not that women can't have fantasies about buff men, but that the depictions of men you see in video games are primarily designed for the benefit/enjoyment of male gamers, not female gamers.
What's this got to do with video games? If the demographic is 95% male its just a business choice at point 3. As I said the argument that this somehow promotes sexism holds no more weight than playing doom promotes mass murderers.
Video games are a part of our media and culture. The media and culture we grow up with affect our perceptions, which in turn affect our expectations of other people. Media and culture do not determine how we view things, but it's naive to assert that our views are unaffected by either.
Sexism is different from mass murder/violence because you can't murder someone with perceptions, but you can have sexist perceptions. The propensity for women in video games to be impossible supermodels is a contributing factor to our culture's unrealistic, unhealthy expectations of women. You can't point at video games and say, "I judge women by their appearances because of DoA", but that doesn't mean they aren't part of the problem.
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On March 08 2013 01:57 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2013 01:53 Slayer91 wrote:On March 08 2013 01:52 Requizen wrote:On March 08 2013 01:44 Slayer91 wrote:
I never said shit about sexism in the workplace I only said blaming it on video games is retarded.
The point of the video I just argued against, you just mentioned it again and didn't defend it at all when his only argument was that it promotes sexism by making both sexes attractive or something Did you finish the video? The point was this: Who do you think they're designing these models for? Like he said, Game companies never looked at women as a real demographic until relatively recently. Even now, as a random number I'd say 85% of marketing is targeted towards the 18-25 male demographic. To say that attractive females in games are being designed for the female body image fantasy rather than the male sexual fantasy is highly, highly unlikely. I'm not saying anything against Riot, I'm just saying your argument is pretty silly. I highly doubt that Riot reworked Karma's look because they wanted women to buy her, and they likely didn't design Garen's buff physique for them either. Yes I did. What's wrong with designing models for your target demographic? There is lots of chocolate and shit designed for women. There isn't anything wrong with it, I never said there was. But when female models are designed to be hourglass figures and showing skin, saying "it's not sexism" is, well, false.
That's just making them traditionally attractive, if they were women modelling it and marketing towards women it would probably be more or less the same.
What do you propose female models should look like? Exactly like the males? The same but smaller hips and boobs? What do you want?
On March 08 2013 02:02 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2013 01:51 Slayer91 wrote:On March 08 2013 01:49 Seuss wrote:On March 08 2013 01:34 Slayer91 wrote:
Sorry is that guy trying to say that women don't get jobs because guys only want girls that look like the ones they see in video games??
People care more about womens appearance (not strictly true either, come to a job interview poorly dressed with a terrible haircut and unshaven see how well you do) therefore video games should have more fat and ugly women?
And men are allowed to see super buff men as self-image fantasy but women aren't?
This is the most retarded argument I've heard thus far. You've completely missed every point in the video. To answer your questions in order: - No, he's trying to say that a woman's appearance affects how she is judged and perceived more than is the case for her male peers, and her actual achievements or abilities have less weight.
- The problem is that a woman's achievements/intelligence/abilities are secondary to her appearances. Because this is not the case for men, you can have depictions of men that do not conform with "standards" of beauty. But because a woman's appearance is such a huge part of how she is judged (not the only part, just disproportionately weighted) you can't do the same.
- It's not that women can't have fantasies about buff men, but that the depictions of men you see in video games are primarily designed for the benefit/enjoyment of male gamers, not female gamers.
What's this got to do with video games? If the demographic is 95% male its just a business choice at point 3. As I said the argument that this somehow promotes sexism holds no more weight than playing doom promotes mass murderers. Video games are a part of our media and culture. The media and culture we grow up with affect our perceptions, which in turn affect our expectations of other people. Media and culture do not determine how we view things, but it's naive to assert that our views are unaffected by either. Sexism is different from mass murder/violence because you can't murder someone with perceptions, but you can have sexist perceptions. The propensity for women in video games to be impossible supermodels is a contributing factor to our culture's unrealistic, unhealthy expectations of women. You can't point at video games and say, "I judge women by their appearances because of DoA", but that doesn't mean they aren't part of the problem.
If you're saying men like women with big breasts and hips well welcome to evolutionary fact.
If you're saying showing women being attractive in video games makes us think less of their intelligence of ability/skills then I have no idea how you reach the conclusion.
If you want media inducing perceptions go look at hollywood where every woman in a damsel in distress and can't do anything without the man to save her. If anything video games are better than everything else because there's no difference at all between the sexes aside from appearance. Ultimate goal of feminism, right?
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I think we are drifting a little bit off topic here.
So after the Vi/Xin nerfs, are they still the king/queen of the current jungle, or are other strong junglers like jarvan taking that throne?
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On March 08 2013 01:59 Alaric wrote:
I'm still constantly puzzled by the way perfumes are marketed to people though, be it men or women. 'dem ads.
^ I didn't feel like the original Sona's splash was oversexualised but that's because I never paid attention to her breasts I guess, when I looked at it her face and instrument were what caught my eye (hence my disappointment with the new splash, as I felt that her stance and gaze in it didn't click with the image her concept/lore/judgment/quotes gave me of her).
Example: The Bod Man fragrance spray, not sure if that made it over to Europe though.
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I like how Jarvan is gonna get nerfed aswell lol. so many junglers nerfed~_~
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On March 08 2013 02:03 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2013 01:57 Requizen wrote:On March 08 2013 01:53 Slayer91 wrote:On March 08 2013 01:52 Requizen wrote:On March 08 2013 01:44 Slayer91 wrote:
I never said shit about sexism in the workplace I only said blaming it on video games is retarded.
The point of the video I just argued against, you just mentioned it again and didn't defend it at all when his only argument was that it promotes sexism by making both sexes attractive or something Did you finish the video? The point was this: Who do you think they're designing these models for? Like he said, Game companies never looked at women as a real demographic until relatively recently. Even now, as a random number I'd say 85% of marketing is targeted towards the 18-25 male demographic. To say that attractive females in games are being designed for the female body image fantasy rather than the male sexual fantasy is highly, highly unlikely. I'm not saying anything against Riot, I'm just saying your argument is pretty silly. I highly doubt that Riot reworked Karma's look because they wanted women to buy her, and they likely didn't design Garen's buff physique for them either. Yes I did. What's wrong with designing models for your target demographic? There is lots of chocolate and shit designed for women. There isn't anything wrong with it, I never said there was. But when female models are designed to be hourglass figures and showing skin, saying "it's not sexism" is, well, false. That's just making them traditionally attractive, if they were women modelling it and marketing towards women it would probably be more or less the same. What do you propose female models should look like? Exactly like the males? The same but smaller hips and boobs? What do you want? Show nested quote +On March 08 2013 02:02 Seuss wrote:On March 08 2013 01:51 Slayer91 wrote:On March 08 2013 01:49 Seuss wrote:On March 08 2013 01:34 Slayer91 wrote:
Sorry is that guy trying to say that women don't get jobs because guys only want girls that look like the ones they see in video games??
People care more about womens appearance (not strictly true either, come to a job interview poorly dressed with a terrible haircut and unshaven see how well you do) therefore video games should have more fat and ugly women?
And men are allowed to see super buff men as self-image fantasy but women aren't?
This is the most retarded argument I've heard thus far. You've completely missed every point in the video. To answer your questions in order: - No, he's trying to say that a woman's appearance affects how she is judged and perceived more than is the case for her male peers, and her actual achievements or abilities have less weight.
- The problem is that a woman's achievements/intelligence/abilities are secondary to her appearances. Because this is not the case for men, you can have depictions of men that do not conform with "standards" of beauty. But because a woman's appearance is such a huge part of how she is judged (not the only part, just disproportionately weighted) you can't do the same.
- It's not that women can't have fantasies about buff men, but that the depictions of men you see in video games are primarily designed for the benefit/enjoyment of male gamers, not female gamers.
What's this got to do with video games? If the demographic is 95% male its just a business choice at point 3. As I said the argument that this somehow promotes sexism holds no more weight than playing doom promotes mass murderers. Video games are a part of our media and culture. The media and culture we grow up with affect our perceptions, which in turn affect our expectations of other people. Media and culture do not determine how we view things, but it's naive to assert that our views are unaffected by either. Sexism is different from mass murder/violence because you can't murder someone with perceptions, but you can have sexist perceptions. The propensity for women in video games to be impossible supermodels is a contributing factor to our culture's unrealistic, unhealthy expectations of women. You can't point at video games and say, "I judge women by their appearances because of DoA", but that doesn't mean they aren't part of the problem. If you're saying men like women with big breasts and hips well welcome to evolutionary fact. If you're saying showing women being attractive in video games makes us think less of their intelligence of ability/skills then I have no idea how you reach the conclusion.
I'm not saying either of those things. I recommend you read the article I linked earlier, and if you still can't understand me after that then we should probably end the discussion.
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On March 08 2013 02:03 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2013 01:57 Requizen wrote:On March 08 2013 01:53 Slayer91 wrote:On March 08 2013 01:52 Requizen wrote:On March 08 2013 01:44 Slayer91 wrote:
I never said shit about sexism in the workplace I only said blaming it on video games is retarded.
The point of the video I just argued against, you just mentioned it again and didn't defend it at all when his only argument was that it promotes sexism by making both sexes attractive or something Did you finish the video? The point was this: Who do you think they're designing these models for? Like he said, Game companies never looked at women as a real demographic until relatively recently. Even now, as a random number I'd say 85% of marketing is targeted towards the 18-25 male demographic. To say that attractive females in games are being designed for the female body image fantasy rather than the male sexual fantasy is highly, highly unlikely. I'm not saying anything against Riot, I'm just saying your argument is pretty silly. I highly doubt that Riot reworked Karma's look because they wanted women to buy her, and they likely didn't design Garen's buff physique for them either. Yes I did. What's wrong with designing models for your target demographic? There is lots of chocolate and shit designed for women. There isn't anything wrong with it, I never said there was. But when female models are designed to be hourglass figures and showing skin, saying "it's not sexism" is, well, false. That's just making them traditionally attractive, if they were women modelling it and marketing towards women it would probably be more or less the same. What do you propose female models should look like? Exactly like the males? The same but smaller hips and boobs? What do you want?
Hey man, I am their demographic. I'm a twenty-something man and I like my women buxom and good looking. But I also admit that it's sexualization, and that, in some ways, it's unhealthy.
That said, though, some of my favorite females aren't designed that way. I could give a list, but empirical evidence and all that.
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In Karma's case it's only compounded by the fact that her current image, and the one players have consistently explained as being one of the reasons they found her compelling/bought her in the first place, isn't in that "traditional" paradigm you're talking about, while the new looks fits in.
Personally I'd certainly have reacted less strongly if that had been the splash/model of a new champ, rather than Karma's, because of that stark contrast. Amongst the players' crowd, Karma's identity has come to be associated with that stern, dignified woman in robes. I think stern is a good wording here—I don't mean that other arts can't convey dignity.
But I feel it did its job of establishing Karma as that poised, ever-calm lady who spiritually leads her people (Ionans were supposed to be somewhat distressed in general because of Noxus, in comparison to her). I don't mind the new art as far as "badass spirit mage" goes, but the shift is pretty steep and the fact that we go from "traditional cleric-like robes and inner strength" to "tight or revealing outfit with dynamic poses" doesn't help. Of course, there's Riot wanting to make her evolve to reflect the time passing in the League, from her current "Elder-like: with restraint and passivity" closer to "boiling young blood, active" from champs such as Irelia or Syndra (though it's most probably just an excuse for "we wanted her to look battle badass because we like it more and that sells well"), and the idea of the shift makes sense following that, just... maybe more subtly? :/
(Fwiw I find Syndra's model elegant as far as aesthetics go but I definitely dislike the splash art and the focus in puts on her thighs and breats with the colour contrast and stuff, because when I read her lore and quotes and then look back to the splash art I find nothing of what I read, except her Ionan crest and the building in the background.)
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On March 08 2013 02:10 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2013 02:03 Slayer91 wrote:On March 08 2013 01:57 Requizen wrote:On March 08 2013 01:53 Slayer91 wrote:On March 08 2013 01:52 Requizen wrote:On March 08 2013 01:44 Slayer91 wrote:
I never said shit about sexism in the workplace I only said blaming it on video games is retarded.
The point of the video I just argued against, you just mentioned it again and didn't defend it at all when his only argument was that it promotes sexism by making both sexes attractive or something Did you finish the video? The point was this: Who do you think they're designing these models for? Like he said, Game companies never looked at women as a real demographic until relatively recently. Even now, as a random number I'd say 85% of marketing is targeted towards the 18-25 male demographic. To say that attractive females in games are being designed for the female body image fantasy rather than the male sexual fantasy is highly, highly unlikely. I'm not saying anything against Riot, I'm just saying your argument is pretty silly. I highly doubt that Riot reworked Karma's look because they wanted women to buy her, and they likely didn't design Garen's buff physique for them either. Yes I did. What's wrong with designing models for your target demographic? There is lots of chocolate and shit designed for women. There isn't anything wrong with it, I never said there was. But when female models are designed to be hourglass figures and showing skin, saying "it's not sexism" is, well, false. That's just making them traditionally attractive, if they were women modelling it and marketing towards women it would probably be more or less the same. What do you propose female models should look like? Exactly like the males? The same but smaller hips and boobs? What do you want? On March 08 2013 02:02 Seuss wrote:On March 08 2013 01:51 Slayer91 wrote:On March 08 2013 01:49 Seuss wrote:On March 08 2013 01:34 Slayer91 wrote:
Sorry is that guy trying to say that women don't get jobs because guys only want girls that look like the ones they see in video games??
People care more about womens appearance (not strictly true either, come to a job interview poorly dressed with a terrible haircut and unshaven see how well you do) therefore video games should have more fat and ugly women?
And men are allowed to see super buff men as self-image fantasy but women aren't?
This is the most retarded argument I've heard thus far. You've completely missed every point in the video. To answer your questions in order: - No, he's trying to say that a woman's appearance affects how she is judged and perceived more than is the case for her male peers, and her actual achievements or abilities have less weight.
- The problem is that a woman's achievements/intelligence/abilities are secondary to her appearances. Because this is not the case for men, you can have depictions of men that do not conform with "standards" of beauty. But because a woman's appearance is such a huge part of how she is judged (not the only part, just disproportionately weighted) you can't do the same.
- It's not that women can't have fantasies about buff men, but that the depictions of men you see in video games are primarily designed for the benefit/enjoyment of male gamers, not female gamers.
What's this got to do with video games? If the demographic is 95% male its just a business choice at point 3. As I said the argument that this somehow promotes sexism holds no more weight than playing doom promotes mass murderers. Video games are a part of our media and culture. The media and culture we grow up with affect our perceptions, which in turn affect our expectations of other people. Media and culture do not determine how we view things, but it's naive to assert that our views are unaffected by either. Sexism is different from mass murder/violence because you can't murder someone with perceptions, but you can have sexist perceptions. The propensity for women in video games to be impossible supermodels is a contributing factor to our culture's unrealistic, unhealthy expectations of women. You can't point at video games and say, "I judge women by their appearances because of DoA", but that doesn't mean they aren't part of the problem. If you're saying men like women with big breasts and hips well welcome to evolutionary fact. If you're saying showing women being attractive in video games makes us think less of their intelligence of ability/skills then I have no idea how you reach the conclusion. I'm not saying either of those things. I recommend you read the article I linked earlier, and if you still can't understand me after that then we should probably end the discussion.
I've read your article. Women have a lot more variety in the way they dress and that's probably been true since the dawn of man when men were chosen more for leadership and skill and women were chosen more for looks (childbearing ability/good genetics/healthy) as a general rule.
However this still has nothing to do with making women look attractive in video games. OKAY let's assume there is some kind of a problem with it. How do you fix it? That way I can try to dissect your reasoning instead of just watching everyones articles and videos when they assume that it somehow proves a point.
On March 08 2013 02:17 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2013 02:03 Slayer91 wrote:On March 08 2013 01:57 Requizen wrote:On March 08 2013 01:53 Slayer91 wrote:On March 08 2013 01:52 Requizen wrote:On March 08 2013 01:44 Slayer91 wrote:
I never said shit about sexism in the workplace I only said blaming it on video games is retarded.
The point of the video I just argued against, you just mentioned it again and didn't defend it at all when his only argument was that it promotes sexism by making both sexes attractive or something Did you finish the video? The point was this: Who do you think they're designing these models for? Like he said, Game companies never looked at women as a real demographic until relatively recently. Even now, as a random number I'd say 85% of marketing is targeted towards the 18-25 male demographic. To say that attractive females in games are being designed for the female body image fantasy rather than the male sexual fantasy is highly, highly unlikely. I'm not saying anything against Riot, I'm just saying your argument is pretty silly. I highly doubt that Riot reworked Karma's look because they wanted women to buy her, and they likely didn't design Garen's buff physique for them either. Yes I did. What's wrong with designing models for your target demographic? There is lots of chocolate and shit designed for women. There isn't anything wrong with it, I never said there was. But when female models are designed to be hourglass figures and showing skin, saying "it's not sexism" is, well, false. That's just making them traditionally attractive, if they were women modelling it and marketing towards women it would probably be more or less the same. What do you propose female models should look like? Exactly like the males? The same but smaller hips and boobs? What do you want? Hey man, I am their demographic. I'm a twenty-something man and I like my women buxom and good looking. But I also admit that it's sexualization, and that, in some ways, it's unhealthy. That said, though, some of my favorite females aren't designed that way. I could give a list, but empirical evidence and all that.
Okay, give me an example of how you could put unhealthy sexualisation of men in a video game.
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