• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 03:37
CEST 09:37
KST 16:37
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
BGE Stara Zagora 2025: Info & Preview27Code S RO12 Preview: GuMiho, Bunny, SHIN, ByuN3The Memories We Share - Facing the Final(?) GSL47Code S RO12 Preview: Cure, Zoun, Solar, Creator4[ASL19] Finals Preview: Daunting Task30
Community News
Weekly Cups (June 2-8): herO doubles down1[BSL20] ProLeague: Bracket Stage & Dates9GSL Ro4 and Finals moved to Sunday June 15th13Weekly Cups (May 27-June 1): ByuN goes back-to-back0EWC 2025 Regional Qualifier Results26
StarCraft 2
General
StarCraft 1 & 2 Added to Xbox Game Pass The SCII GOAT: A statistical Evaluation Jim claims he and Firefly were involved in match-fixing CN community: Firefly accused of suspicious activities How does the number of casters affect your enjoyment of esports?
Tourneys
Bellum Gens Elite: Stara Zagora 2025 $3,500 WardiTV European League 2025 Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament SOOPer7s Showmatches 2025 Master Swan Open (Global Bronze-Master 2)
Strategy
[G] Darkgrid Layout Simple Questions Simple Answers [G] PvT Cheese: 13 Gate Proxy Robo
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 477 Slow and Steady Mutation # 476 Charnel House Mutation # 475 Hard Target Mutation # 474 Futile Resistance
Brood War
General
BW General Discussion StarCraft & BroodWar Campaign Speedrun Quest BGH auto balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Will foreigners ever be able to challenge Koreans? Mihu vs Korea Players Statistics
Tourneys
[ASL19] Grand Finals NA Team League 6/8/2025 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL20] ProLeague Bracket Stage - Day 2
Strategy
I am doing this better than progamers do. [G] How to get started on ladder as a new Z player
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread What do you want from future RTS games? Armies of Exigo - YesYes? Nintendo Switch Thread Path of Exile
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
LiquidLegends to reintegrate into TL.net
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Vape Nation Thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
Maru Fan Club Serral Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Korean Music Discussion [Manga] One Piece
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Cognitive styles x game perf…
TrAiDoS
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Heero Yuy & the Tax…
KrillinFromwales
I was completely wrong ab…
jameswatts
Need Your Help/Advice
Glider
Trip to the Zoo
micronesia
Poker
Nebuchad
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 32562 users

[Patch 3.03: Quinn] General Discussion - Page 17

Forum Index > LoL General
Post a Reply
Prev 1 15 16 17 18 19 176 Next
obesechicken13
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States10467 Posts
March 02 2013 03:24 GMT
#321
no more ap tryn
I think in our modern age technology has evolved to become more addictive. The things that don't give us pleasure aren't used as much. Work was never meant to be fun, but doing it makes us happier in the long run.
Shotcoder
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States2316 Posts
March 02 2013 03:30 GMT
#322
On March 02 2013 12:19 Gahlo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 02 2013 12:13 IMoperator wrote:
What is with ranked right now, I get 11 points for wins and -9 points for losses. So boring to play when you know you're not actually going to get anywhere.

Usually, when you get to those gains, you're right around where the game thinks you are.


Yea but I still don't understand the +2, -20 set up they have in Division one when you get to 90ish points. It makes it nearly impossible to advance at all. Maybe I'm just having bad luck but I constantly get to 94-96 points then lose one game and go back to 75-80 points. I know they want to make it hard to advance but this more demoralizing than anything.
Shotcoder - C+ BW Terran, Gold LoL(ADC Main)
phathom321
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States1730 Posts
March 02 2013 03:31 GMT
#323
What do you get out of maxing Quinn's E first? I was maxing E last because it already has a really low cool down the AS from W and the more damage for Q seemed like the better choice ...?
"Dying in the line of duty is heroic, but dying while unemployed is just stupid." -L
Sedzz
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
Australia391 Posts
March 02 2013 03:33 GMT
#324
On March 02 2013 12:30 Shotcoder wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 02 2013 12:19 Gahlo wrote:
On March 02 2013 12:13 IMoperator wrote:
What is with ranked right now, I get 11 points for wins and -9 points for losses. So boring to play when you know you're not actually going to get anywhere.

Usually, when you get to those gains, you're right around where the game thinks you are.


Yea but I still don't understand the +2, -20 set up they have in Division one when you get to 90ish points. It makes it nearly impossible to advance at all. Maybe I'm just having bad luck but I constantly get to 94-96 points then lose one game and go back to 75-80 points. I know they want to make it hard to advance but this more demoralizing than anything.


It's funny that you mention they want to make it harder to advance when the entire premise of leagues was to make it so people can track progress easier and make it feel like they are accomplishing something with each win. All it's done has made it incredibly hard to break out of ELO hell now and makes playing ranked boring and stale.
Alaric
Profile Joined November 2009
France45622 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-02 03:49:01
March 02 2013 03:40 GMT
#325
On March 02 2013 12:33 Sedzz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 02 2013 12:30 Shotcoder wrote:
On March 02 2013 12:19 Gahlo wrote:
On March 02 2013 12:13 IMoperator wrote:
What is with ranked right now, I get 11 points for wins and -9 points for losses. So boring to play when you know you're not actually going to get anywhere.

Usually, when you get to those gains, you're right around where the game thinks you are.


Yea but I still don't understand the +2, -20 set up they have in Division one when you get to 90ish points. It makes it nearly impossible to advance at all. Maybe I'm just having bad luck but I constantly get to 94-96 points then lose one game and go back to 75-80 points. I know they want to make it hard to advance but this more demoralizing than anything.


It's funny that you mention they want to make it harder to advance when the entire premise of leagues was to make it so people can track progress easier and make it feel like they are accomplishing something with each win. All it's done has made it incredibly hard to break out of ELO hell now and makes playing ranked boring and stale.

Elo is still there, there're just the cosmetic tiers and League Points, and the hidden Elo system governing the matchmaking. So apart from the fact that there's no one true Elo hell, assuming you'd be in one it's exactly the same thing as before since your LP gains aren't precisely correlated to Elo gains.
Cant take LMS hipsters serious.
Dusty
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States3359 Posts
March 02 2013 03:45 GMT
#326
On March 02 2013 12:33 Sedzz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 02 2013 12:30 Shotcoder wrote:
On March 02 2013 12:19 Gahlo wrote:
On March 02 2013 12:13 IMoperator wrote:
What is with ranked right now, I get 11 points for wins and -9 points for losses. So boring to play when you know you're not actually going to get anywhere.

Usually, when you get to those gains, you're right around where the game thinks you are.


Yea but I still don't understand the +2, -20 set up they have in Division one when you get to 90ish points. It makes it nearly impossible to advance at all. Maybe I'm just having bad luck but I constantly get to 94-96 points then lose one game and go back to 75-80 points. I know they want to make it hard to advance but this more demoralizing than anything.


It's funny that you mention they want to make it harder to advance when the entire premise of leagues was to make it so people can track progress easier and make it feel like they are accomplishing something with each win. All it's done has made it incredibly hard to break out of ELO hell now and makes playing ranked boring and stale.


Elo hell? What is that?
iCanada
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada10660 Posts
March 02 2013 03:49 GMT
#327
On March 02 2013 12:45 Dusty wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 02 2013 12:33 Sedzz wrote:
On March 02 2013 12:30 Shotcoder wrote:
On March 02 2013 12:19 Gahlo wrote:
On March 02 2013 12:13 IMoperator wrote:
What is with ranked right now, I get 11 points for wins and -9 points for losses. So boring to play when you know you're not actually going to get anywhere.

Usually, when you get to those gains, you're right around where the game thinks you are.


Yea but I still don't understand the +2, -20 set up they have in Division one when you get to 90ish points. It makes it nearly impossible to advance at all. Maybe I'm just having bad luck but I constantly get to 94-96 points then lose one game and go back to 75-80 points. I know they want to make it hard to advance but this more demoralizing than anything.


It's funny that you mention they want to make it harder to advance when the entire premise of leagues was to make it so people can track progress easier and make it feel like they are accomplishing something with each win. All it's done has made it incredibly hard to break out of ELO hell now and makes playing ranked boring and stale.


Elo hell? What is that?


The notion that everyoen thinks they way better player than everyone else and they lose games because their teammates suck.

That being said, it mathematically impossible, because if you goood and everyone you matched gaainst sucks then you should just win because your team has 5 dumbasses and yours only has 4.

Ziken
Profile Joined August 2010
Ghana1743 Posts
March 02 2013 03:50 GMT
#328
On March 01 2013 16:33 wei2coolman wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 01 2013 16:28 onlywonderboy wrote:
On March 01 2013 16:19 wei2coolman wrote:
On March 01 2013 15:18 JALbert wrote:
On March 01 2013 14:54 wei2coolman wrote:
Garen nerfs totally necessary, cuz he's so broken, lol, sometimes I don't understand Riot.


This is exactly what we'd hear if AP Trynd was nerfed one month ago.

AP trynd didn't need a nerf either. too much bitching an moaning by 1200's.

Nerfing is not an excuse for not learning to counterplay.

On March 01 2013 16:17 VayneAuthority wrote:
how on earth is that a taric nerf? looks like a massive fucking buff.

It's a massive buff if you had a shit ton of gold on Taric; and could actually afford stuff like frozen heart or other support items like locket. But more often than naught you don't have jack shit on supports in terms of items.

I wanna try Top Taric just for the fun of it lol.

I think smash once ran top taric with full apen (due to taric's ridiculous base dmg). ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE!
Muramana taric, gogogogo!


In a ranked game i had a while ago, our last pick mispicked taric because he thought he was supporting but only top was open, and i dont know how he did it, but he absolutely destroyed their singed top lane. was genuinely surprised.
Every misfortune is a blessing in disguise.
Daikas
Profile Joined December 2010
United States118 Posts
March 02 2013 04:00 GMT
#329
NA server down?
Is that a sword? Luxury! Is that a horse? Sloth! Is that a helmet? Vanity!
13JackaL
Profile Joined March 2011
United States577 Posts
March 02 2013 04:14 GMT
#330
On March 02 2013 12:49 iCanada wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 02 2013 12:45 Dusty wrote:
On March 02 2013 12:33 Sedzz wrote:
On March 02 2013 12:30 Shotcoder wrote:
On March 02 2013 12:19 Gahlo wrote:
On March 02 2013 12:13 IMoperator wrote:
What is with ranked right now, I get 11 points for wins and -9 points for losses. So boring to play when you know you're not actually going to get anywhere.

Usually, when you get to those gains, you're right around where the game thinks you are.


Yea but I still don't understand the +2, -20 set up they have in Division one when you get to 90ish points. It makes it nearly impossible to advance at all. Maybe I'm just having bad luck but I constantly get to 94-96 points then lose one game and go back to 75-80 points. I know they want to make it hard to advance but this more demoralizing than anything.


It's funny that you mention they want to make it harder to advance when the entire premise of leagues was to make it so people can track progress easier and make it feel like they are accomplishing something with each win. All it's done has made it incredibly hard to break out of ELO hell now and makes playing ranked boring and stale.


Elo hell? What is that?


The notion that everyoen thinks they way better player than everyone else and they lose games because their teammates suck.

That being said, it mathematically impossible, because if you goood and everyone you matched gaainst sucks then you should just win because your team has 5 dumbasses and yours only has 4.


This is the single greatest truth I have ever witnessed...
and my axe
onlywonderboy
Profile Joined August 2012
United States23745 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-02 04:16:04
March 02 2013 04:15 GMT
#331
On March 02 2013 10:09 UnKooL wrote:
I actually don't understand why Zion keeps running Fizz, the champion sucks and he literally feeds free kills every match. He used to be so good back when they wered TD, but now he is dead weight.

Mid isn't his usual position, of course he's not going to look as good as when he does Top. He picks Fizz because he's a champ he's comfortable with. And Tabzz would like to have a word for you that Fizz is a bad champ. There was a conversation we had a while ago about how Fizz is weird because he totally has potential to be played at a pro level but just nobody does.
RIP Ryan Davis / TL or Die / @onlywonderboy
wei2coolman
Profile Joined November 2010
United States60033 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-02 04:25:11
March 02 2013 04:24 GMT
#332
On March 02 2013 13:15 onlywonderboy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 02 2013 10:09 UnKooL wrote:
I actually don't understand why Zion keeps running Fizz, the champion sucks and he literally feeds free kills every match. He used to be so good back when they wered TD, but now he is dead weight.

Mid isn't his usual position, of course he's not going to look as good as when he does Top. He picks Fizz because he's a champ he's comfortable with. And Tabzz would like to have a word for you that Fizz is a bad champ. There was a conversation we had a while ago about how Fizz is weird because he totally has potential to be played at a pro level but just nobody does.

Fizz one of my favorite champs; He's a bit too squishy for my taste; also it's very awkward to have a DoT dmg source as an assassin; it's a very finnicky mechanic when you're all-inning someone.

Zion's fizz is actually pretty good (not tabzz good; but pretty solid).
liftlift > tsm
Zdrastochye
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Ivory Coast6262 Posts
March 02 2013 04:26 GMT
#333
On March 02 2013 13:14 13JackaL wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 02 2013 12:49 iCanada wrote:
On March 02 2013 12:45 Dusty wrote:
On March 02 2013 12:33 Sedzz wrote:
On March 02 2013 12:30 Shotcoder wrote:
On March 02 2013 12:19 Gahlo wrote:
On March 02 2013 12:13 IMoperator wrote:
What is with ranked right now, I get 11 points for wins and -9 points for losses. So boring to play when you know you're not actually going to get anywhere.

Usually, when you get to those gains, you're right around where the game thinks you are.


Yea but I still don't understand the +2, -20 set up they have in Division one when you get to 90ish points. It makes it nearly impossible to advance at all. Maybe I'm just having bad luck but I constantly get to 94-96 points then lose one game and go back to 75-80 points. I know they want to make it hard to advance but this more demoralizing than anything.


It's funny that you mention they want to make it harder to advance when the entire premise of leagues was to make it so people can track progress easier and make it feel like they are accomplishing something with each win. All it's done has made it incredibly hard to break out of ELO hell now and makes playing ranked boring and stale.


Elo hell? What is that?


The notion that everyoen thinks they way better player than everyone else and they lose games because their teammates suck.

That being said, it mathematically impossible, because if you goood and everyone you matched gaainst sucks then you should just win because your team has 5 dumbasses and yours only has 4.


This is the single greatest truth I have ever witnessed...


You forget the argument where only they get dumbasses, and the other teams get good allies (but still shittier players than themselves).
Hey! How you doin'?
Complete
Profile Joined October 2009
United States1864 Posts
March 02 2013 04:29 GMT
#334
why do I have a game that says I dealt a total of 23k magic damage to champions, 900 physical damage to champions and 32k total damage to champions as ahri? Does true damage not count as either?
Bladeorade
Profile Joined August 2010
United States1898 Posts
March 02 2013 04:33 GMT
#335
Right, true damage isn't physical or magic...
Craton
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States17239 Posts
March 02 2013 04:33 GMT
#336
True damage is true damage, not physical damage and not magic damage.
twitch.tv/cratonz
obesechicken13
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States10467 Posts
March 02 2013 04:36 GMT
#337
On March 02 2013 04:00 kainzero wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 02 2013 03:51 obesechicken13 wrote:
I really can't trust what anyone says about the game anymore when the community changes their opinions so much for no good reason. Watching this community is like watching a first grade soccer team, and riot is the other soccer team, and everyone's just chasing the ball rather than trying to get into position.

you know i was absolutely amazed at how league is a microcosm of the real world

i remember somebody at work made a mistake and instead of admitting it and moving on they just tried to deflect blame, where it be to another coworker or to the client and it would just go back and forth

business strategies are copied with little to no regard to the actual reason they were implented, and you hear buzzwords flying back and forth that really don't mean anything

etc. etc.

It kind of is, but I think it's more similar to the competitive side of the real world. What you might see if you put people in direct competition with each other.
I think in our modern age technology has evolved to become more addictive. The things that don't give us pleasure aren't used as much. Work was never meant to be fun, but doing it makes us happier in the long run.
dae
Profile Joined June 2010
Canada1600 Posts
March 02 2013 04:43 GMT
#338
On March 02 2013 12:45 Dusty wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 02 2013 12:33 Sedzz wrote:
On March 02 2013 12:30 Shotcoder wrote:
On March 02 2013 12:19 Gahlo wrote:
On March 02 2013 12:13 IMoperator wrote:
What is with ranked right now, I get 11 points for wins and -9 points for losses. So boring to play when you know you're not actually going to get anywhere.

Usually, when you get to those gains, you're right around where the game thinks you are.


Yea but I still don't understand the +2, -20 set up they have in Division one when you get to 90ish points. It makes it nearly impossible to advance at all. Maybe I'm just having bad luck but I constantly get to 94-96 points then lose one game and go back to 75-80 points. I know they want to make it hard to advance but this more demoralizing than anything.


It's funny that you mention they want to make it harder to advance when the entire premise of leagues was to make it so people can track progress easier and make it feel like they are accomplishing something with each win. All it's done has made it incredibly hard to break out of ELO hell now and makes playing ranked boring and stale.


Elo hell? What is that?


The place tat only exists for support mains
Mondeezy
Profile Joined August 2011
United States1938 Posts
March 02 2013 04:45 GMT
#339
On March 02 2013 12:31 phathom321 wrote:
What do you get out of maxing Quinn's E first? I was maxing E last because it already has a really low cool down the AS from W and the more damage for Q seemed like the better choice ...?


More mobility I suppose.

I've been going R>Q>E>W, allows me to kite fairly well and have kill/trade power.
LoL NA: Mondeezy - TL - Riven <3
Ethelis
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
United States2396 Posts
March 02 2013 04:45 GMT
#340
On March 02 2013 13:43 dae wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 02 2013 12:45 Dusty wrote:
On March 02 2013 12:33 Sedzz wrote:
On March 02 2013 12:30 Shotcoder wrote:
On March 02 2013 12:19 Gahlo wrote:
On March 02 2013 12:13 IMoperator wrote:
What is with ranked right now, I get 11 points for wins and -9 points for losses. So boring to play when you know you're not actually going to get anywhere.

Usually, when you get to those gains, you're right around where the game thinks you are.


Yea but I still don't understand the +2, -20 set up they have in Division one when you get to 90ish points. It makes it nearly impossible to advance at all. Maybe I'm just having bad luck but I constantly get to 94-96 points then lose one game and go back to 75-80 points. I know they want to make it hard to advance but this more demoralizing than anything.


It's funny that you mention they want to make it harder to advance when the entire premise of leagues was to make it so people can track progress easier and make it feel like they are accomplishing something with each win. All it's done has made it incredibly hard to break out of ELO hell now and makes playing ranked boring and stale.


Elo hell? What is that?


The place tat only exists for support mains


Leona begs to differ.
Disabled gamer - Diamond 3 (LoL) D+ Rank scrublord on BW. Bisu doesnt need DTs, He uses probes. just ask Flash.
Prev 1 15 16 17 18 19 176 Next
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 2h 23m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
mcanning 114
SC2_NightMare 13
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 34761
Sea 4856
GoRush 736
ajuk12(nOOB) 161
Movie 60
Leta 50
Sharp 27
Sacsri 27
Bale 7
Dota 2
XcaliburYe330
BananaSlamJamma243
League of Legends
JimRising 669
Counter-Strike
Stewie2K1619
shoxiejesuss145
Other Games
WinterStarcraft531
Happy355
Mew2King273
crisheroes50
Organizations
Dota 2
PGL Dota 2 - Secondary Stream2650
Other Games
gamesdonequick737
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 14 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH326
• LUISG 26
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Rush1757
• Stunt591
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
2h 23m
WardiTV Invitational
3h 23m
PiGosaur Monday
16h 23m
GSL Code S
1d 1h
Rogue vs GuMiho
Maru vs Solar
Online Event
1d 16h
Replay Cast
1d 18h
GSL Code S
2 days
herO vs Zoun
Classic vs Bunny
The PondCast
2 days
Replay Cast
2 days
WardiTV Invitational
3 days
[ Show More ]
OSC
3 days
Korean StarCraft League
3 days
CranKy Ducklings
4 days
WardiTV Invitational
4 days
Cheesadelphia
4 days
CSO Cup
4 days
GSL Code S
5 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
5 days
Replay Cast
5 days
Wardi Open
6 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL Season 17: Qualifier 2
BGE Stara Zagora 2025
Heroes 10 EU

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL 2v2 Season 3
BSL Season 20
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
NPSL S3
Rose Open S1
CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
2025 GSL S2
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025
YaLLa Compass Qatar 2025
PGL Bucharest 2025
BLAST Open Spring 2025

Upcoming

Copa Latinoamericana 4
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
K-Championship
SEL Season 2 Championship
Esports World Cup 2025
HSC XXVII
Championship of Russia 2025
Murky Cup #2
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.