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On March 14 2013 03:19 overt wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2013 02:33 JonGalt wrote:
2) Queuing up for Mid/Top/ADC will probably take longer than Support or Jungle. I don't think this is necessarily a problem. Or even true. A lot of people play League. Maybe at high elo when you have a smaller player base and queue times are longer anyways but for the most part I don't think it'd increase queue times that much. And even if it does then it forces people who insist on mid/top to either be patient or play their secondary/third role.
You only need to look as far as WoW's LFD to know that queue times will increase for popular roles, and if the difference between the popular and unpopular roles is big enough it can actually be fairly dramatic.
I don't think LoL has quite the disparity that WoW had, except when it comes to supporting, but it's still non-trivial. Still, I think the pros outweigh the cons (at least until the system starts preventing certain meta options such as AD+Support mid).
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On March 14 2013 03:30 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2013 03:19 overt wrote:
I don't think this is necessarily a problem. Or even true. A lot of people play League. Maybe at high elo when you have a smaller player base and queue times are longer anyways but for the most part I don't think it'd increase queue times that much. And even if it does then it forces people who insist on mid/top to either be patient or play their secondary/third role. It actually has nothing to do with how many people are queuing and only to do with the ratio of people queuing under each role. If at any given time 80% of players are queueing for Top/Mid/AD, and 20% are queueing for Jungle/Support, then 60% of the player base has to wait for more people to enter queue to get a game. If you're at the bottom of that 60%, you could be waiting a REALLY long time for a game.
To add on this, if you've ever played WoW after the introduction of the LFG thing, Queuing as tank got you basically instant q's. Queuing as healer would be up to a minute....and then queuing on my warlock @_@. 15-20 minutes was pretty average, with longest being over half an hour. This is at 3 DPS, 1 tank 1healer.
In LoL this is probably even worse because in WoW, there's dual spec, and usually people only did it for daily dungeon.
Although it was somewhat amusing to go in with my heroic raid geared pally, and have more mana than the tank did HP, and essentially full heal the tank with every holy light crit.
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Hi guys
Can anyone think of a relatively recent pro game that has an example of an interesting or good item build for one player? I am particularly interested in item timings. So if someone focused on their champ's power level in such a way that they peaked at a specific timing in regards to items, that would be a good example of what I'm looking for.
Ideally it would be a burst champion (ad caster or ap caster), but I would also be interested in dps or tank builds/timings. Any links to vods are greatly appreciated.
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On March 14 2013 03:30 TheYango wrote:
I'd say that this is a more general problem of how the system evaluates skill rather than one related to this queuing system, but I don't agree that it's OK to be a one-champ wonder.
For example, there are Chinese DotA ladders that track hero-specific rating and calculate your overall rating as an aggregate of those. In order to raise rating efficiently, you have to be proficient at a multitude of heroes--raising only one hero's rating quickly starts to give you low overall gains unless you raise other heroes to the same level.
In general, I don't think it's a good thing to encourage role-exclusivity. Maybe in normals, but certainly not in ranked. People would be less inclined to fight each other for roles in the first place if there was more encouragement for people to expand their comfort zone and play everything to begin with.
I can agree with most of that but in the current system I think it's unfair for people to say someone doesn't belong in their division/league because they only play one or two champions. Especially since a very large number of pro players got noticed in the first place by just spamming one or two champions in solo queue.
Also while I can agree that a system encouraging role exclusivity is not a good thing I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing to play a role exclusively. Most people are going to end up branching out anyways and find two, three, maybe even four roles that they really enjoy playing. If someone wants to specialize in a particular role I don't think that's a bad thing.
On March 14 2013 03:35 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2013 03:19 overt wrote:
I don't think this is necessarily a problem. Or even true. A lot of people play League. Maybe at high elo when you have a smaller player base and queue times are longer anyways but for the most part I don't think it'd increase queue times that much. And even if it does then it forces people who insist on mid/top to either be patient or play their secondary/third role.
You probably haven't played WOW since they created the automatching dungeon feature have you?
I don't play much WoW. But I have a priest so dungeon queue usually wasn't that bad.
Still in league you don't have to grind levels to play support or jungle. And if the system was one where you pick like top two roles or top three it wouldn't be that bad. At worst people who can only play mid or top have long queues and at best it'd force them to expand their skills.
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On March 14 2013 03:38 Amui wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2013 03:30 TheYango wrote:On March 14 2013 03:19 overt wrote:
I don't think this is necessarily a problem. Or even true. A lot of people play League. Maybe at high elo when you have a smaller player base and queue times are longer anyways but for the most part I don't think it'd increase queue times that much. And even if it does then it forces people who insist on mid/top to either be patient or play their secondary/third role. It actually has nothing to do with how many people are queuing and only to do with the ratio of people queuing under each role. If at any given time 80% of players are queueing for Top/Mid/AD, and 20% are queueing for Jungle/Support, then 60% of the player base has to wait for more people to enter queue to get a game. If you're at the bottom of that 60%, you could be waiting a REALLY long time for a game. To add on this, if you've ever played WoW after the introduction of the LFG thing, Queuing as tank got you basically instant q's. Queuing as healer would be up to a minute....and then queuing on my warlock @_@. 15-20 minutes was pretty average, with longest being over half an hour. This is at 3 DPS, 1 tank 1healer. In LoL this is probably even worse because in WoW, there's dual spec, and usually people only did it for daily dungeon.
There is a weird dynamic with the group finder is that in heroics it's instat for tanks, small for healers, and 15ish minute for dps. For raidfinder it's instant for healers, 5ish minutes for tanks, and up to an hour for dps. I'm interested to see how the timers would turn out over different elos.
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Pootie too good!4331 Posts
On March 14 2013 03:08 nafta wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2013 02:49 onlywonderboy wrote:On March 14 2013 02:44 nafta wrote:
The only thing that can fix the solo q problem is the league community.Unless everyone stops being fucking dicks and doing dumb shit for no reason it will never happen.Pretty sure it will stay like this at best simply because more people start playing it and we all know that communities get worse as they get bigger. Doesn't mean Riot can't do anything to try and fix the way the community acts. I'm honestly just hoping for a definitive statement of pick order > call order. I know some people are against this but I think it would help a lot, and people can't claim you can't report them because they called the role even though you are higher on the pick order. I vaguely remember a riot post or something that clearly stated that higher pick gets to pick w/e he wants.I've always thought it was like that. Also kind of off topic but it's quite amazing just how bad the community is.Like I've played A LOT of games and I have never felt pretty close to ashamed to call myself part of it.Guess I never really played team games before(other than wow maybe) this one so it kind of makes sense.Like when the most popular mentality of your whole ladder system is-I am matched with 4 retards and gotta beat the other 5-you know something is wrong.
Hahahahahahaha wow. I never thought of it in those words, but that's hilarious.
I am not a rager in life or video games and people who do perplex me. The ones that rage at a video game like LoL absolutely baffles me. Everyone has amnesia and never remembers the time THEY screwed up themselves. Everyone has shitty games, no one needs a rage induced reminder.
It's so weird because I bet almost everyone would tell you staying positive is a better idea, and yet...
And I get/understand a natural hothead. You can't avoid everyone. However, I feel like this games makes people rage who normally wouldn't. I just don't get it.
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United States47024 Posts
On March 14 2013 03:38 Amui wrote:
In LoL this is probably even worse because in WoW, there's dual spec, and usually people only did it for daily dungeon.
Not to mention that in WoW, you're at least pairing 3 DPS with 1 healer and 1 tank, so even though there's an enormous disparity in roles queuing, it's partially alleviated by each party having more DPS "slots". In LoL you're pairing one of each role for 5 roles.
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Let riot make a filter that you can customise befoer you queue.
sidelane solo
midlane solo
sidelane duo support
sidelane duo carry
sidelane duo splitfarm
You can choose any number of options, including all of them if you want a "normal queue"
The system then places you in a queue and auto makes a team. When you get to champion select everyone has an indicator of the role they have to play at the side of their name. Of course if you are willing to negociate with other people maybe they agree to swap roles. Not playing what you are assigned to is a reportable offence.
Queues would be obviously longer for people that only mark 1 role, especially mid or top I would think. But I think it's ok, it would make people consider learning another role for faster queues.
Hard trolls would not be prevented of course, but nothing stops those guys. It also brings the possibility of having ELO per role, or even matchmaking matching lanes very accuratly. If they do that they might even consider opening the matchmaking mmr rango for a full team, but closing it lane by lane. What i mean is for instance top is 1450 vs 1450 mid 1600 vs 1600 bot 1650 1500 vs 1650 1500 jungle 1400 vs 1400
Metagame stagnating is a non issue, as long as 2 solos 1 duo 1 jungle is the way to play the game, role picking before queueing will not make it any less innovative. Everyone plays this game this way, you have to negociate hardcore if you want anything different with your team. With the above system, you still have champion select so you still have room to do the negociating.
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On March 14 2013 03:49 JonGalt wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2013 03:08 nafta wrote:On March 14 2013 02:49 onlywonderboy wrote:On March 14 2013 02:44 nafta wrote:
The only thing that can fix the solo q problem is the league community.Unless everyone stops being fucking dicks and doing dumb shit for no reason it will never happen.Pretty sure it will stay like this at best simply because more people start playing it and we all know that communities get worse as they get bigger. Doesn't mean Riot can't do anything to try and fix the way the community acts. I'm honestly just hoping for a definitive statement of pick order > call order. I know some people are against this but I think it would help a lot, and people can't claim you can't report them because they called the role even though you are higher on the pick order. I vaguely remember a riot post or something that clearly stated that higher pick gets to pick w/e he wants.I've always thought it was like that. Also kind of off topic but it's quite amazing just how bad the community is.Like I've played A LOT of games and I have never felt pretty close to ashamed to call myself part of it.Guess I never really played team games before(other than wow maybe) this one so it kind of makes sense.Like when the most popular mentality of your whole ladder system is-I am matched with 4 retards and gotta beat the other 5-you know something is wrong. Hahahahahahaha wow. I never thought of it in those words, but that's hilarious. I am not a rager in life or video games and people who do perplex me. The ones that rage at a video game like LoL absolutely baffles me. Everyone has amnesia and never remembers the time THEY screwed up themselves. Everyone has shitty games, no one needs a rage induced reminder. It's so weird because I bet almost everyone would tell you staying positive is a better idea, and yet... And I get/understand a natural hothead. You can't avoid everyone. However, I feel like this games makes people rage who normally wouldn't. I just don't get it.
It's because you have an easy excuse for everything and people for some reason care about their elo/league imo.People need to realise that the solo q system is just stupid.It gives a rating to the team and it calls it "solo".I wouldn't mind losing elo for winning games but playing bad and reverse but that would never happen because it's too hard to implement correctly.
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On March 13 2013 08:53 Parnage wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2013 08:27 onlywonderboy wrote:On March 13 2013 08:16 Alaric wrote:On March 13 2013 08:04 sylverfyre wrote:On March 13 2013 07:52 NeoIllusions wrote:lololol Zac I was getting all hyped for the new champion until that image. I was thinking people'd get another monster... nope. Not-humanised stuff doesn't sell, they say.  It's still a monster...technically. There hasn't been a non-bipedal champ since Hec, and even he's still half human lol. I was really hoping for an amorphous blob. This is what I had in mind. + Show Spoiler + He looks like the pink DBZ villian, boo? I think..
Thanks, I'm not the only one who thought of this...
+ Show Spoiler +http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100320124414/villains/images/3/36/Super_Buu.jpg
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I can't believe people on this thread are actually contemplating that it's a good idea to have assigned roles in queue.
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Role queueing just opens up more problems and I have enough faith in Riot not to go down that role.
It would just change the dynamic of the troll, and not solve anything else. "ADC or feed" becomes "Ban Blitz/lane opponent that counters my favorite champ/ or Heimer ADC" then you get "Pick a real ADC or Trundle Mid" etc.
Someone is always going to complain about something during champ select, the best bet for a change is with the timers the team has to communicate.
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Assigning roles before queue pops is also a terrible idea in that you'll get trolls and kids who queue up as support or something to lower queue time then pick a different role anyways.
This probably won't solve the problem entirely, but simply being able to report people w/ chat logs during champ select would help immensely.
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On March 14 2013 03:56 lurked wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2013 08:53 Parnage wrote:On March 13 2013 08:27 onlywonderboy wrote:On March 13 2013 08:16 Alaric wrote:On March 13 2013 08:04 sylverfyre wrote:On March 13 2013 07:52 NeoIllusions wrote:lololol Zac I was getting all hyped for the new champion until that image. I was thinking people'd get another monster... nope. Not-humanised stuff doesn't sell, they say. It's still a monster...technically. There hasn't been a non-bipedal champ since Hec, and even he's still half human lol. I was really hoping for an amorphous blob. This is what I had in mind. + Show Spoiler + He looks like the pink DBZ villian, boo? I think.. Thanks, I'm not the only one who thought of this... + Show Spoiler +http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100320124414/villains/images/3/36/Super_Buu.jpg
Maybe a new dbz game is coming out spanning the buu saga?
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United States47024 Posts
On March 14 2013 04:03 Ryuu314 wrote:
Assigning roles before queue pops is also a terrible idea in that you'll get trolls and kids who queue up as support or something to lower queue time then pick a different role anyways.
I mean, presumably they would make that a reportable offense, but at that point, why not just keep the old system and take an official stance on pick order vs calling roles?
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Pootie too good!4331 Posts
On March 14 2013 03:50 SagaZ wrote:
Let riot make a filter that you can customise befoer you queue.
sidelane solo
midlane solo
sidelane duo support
sidelane duo carry
sidelane duo splitfarm
You can choose any number of options, including all of them if you want a "normal queue"
The system then places you in a queue and auto makes a team. When you get to champion select everyone has an indicator of the role they have to play at the side of their name. Of course if you are willing to negociate with other people maybe they agree to swap roles. Not playing what you are assigned to is a reportable offence.
Queues would be obviously longer for people that only mark 1 role, especially mid or top I would think. But I think it's ok, it would make people consider learning another role for faster queues.
Hard trolls would not be prevented of course, but nothing stops those guys. It also brings the possibility of having ELO per role, or even matchmaking matching lanes very accuratly. If they do that they might even consider opening the matchmaking mmr rango for a full team, but closing it lane by lane. What i mean is for instance top is 1450 vs 1450 mid 1600 vs 1600 bot 1650 1500 vs 1650 1500 jungle 1400 vs 1400
Metagame stagnating is a non issue, as long as 2 solos 1 duo 1 jungle is the way to play the game, role picking before queueing will not make it any less innovative. Everyone plays this game this way, you have to negociate hardcore if you want anything different with your team. With the above system, you still have champion select so you still have room to do the negociating.
Other than the following categories for role choice you forgot:
Man Mode
EFF the Meta
I haven't tried to poke any holes in your theory, but at first glance this looks awesome. See. If I was TL Ambassador to Riot I would present this first thing in the morning.
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On March 14 2013 03:57 wei2coolman wrote:
I can't believe people on this thread are actually contemplating that it's a good idea to have assigned roles in queue.
I personally believe it's still really weird that solo queue has so little team work or coordination yet is considered the de facto measurement of skill. I'm glad that Riot is doing stuff like letting teams who qualify in ranked 5s go pro to make ranked 5s attractive but solo queue is still a measurement of skill when in my opinion ranked 5s should be what people who are actually serious about this game play. Solo queue should be a fun quick way to play without organizing people. The quickest and easiest way to get into a game as a role you want to play would be with something that lets you pick which roles you want to play.
On March 14 2013 04:03 Ryuu314 wrote:
Assigning roles before queue pops is also a terrible idea in that you'll get trolls and kids who queue up as support or something to lower queue time then pick a different role anyways.
This probably won't solve the problem entirely, but simply being able to report people w/ chat logs during champ select would help immensely.
It'd be super easy for Riot to see that person A queue'd up for Support/Jungle/ADC and then locked in Irelia and got reported by their whole team for trolling the queue. Certainly a lot easier than it is now.
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On March 14 2013 03:45 overt wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2013 03:30 TheYango wrote:
I'd say that this is a more general problem of how the system evaluates skill rather than one related to this queuing system, but I don't agree that it's OK to be a one-champ wonder.
For example, there are Chinese DotA ladders that track hero-specific rating and calculate your overall rating as an aggregate of those. In order to raise rating efficiently, you have to be proficient at a multitude of heroes--raising only one hero's rating quickly starts to give you low overall gains unless you raise other heroes to the same level.
In general, I don't think it's a good thing to encourage role-exclusivity. Maybe in normals, but certainly not in ranked. People would be less inclined to fight each other for roles in the first place if there was more encouragement for people to expand their comfort zone and play everything to begin with. I can agree with most of that but in the current system I think it's unfair for people to say someone doesn't belong in their division/league because they only play one or two champions. Especially since a very large number of pro players got noticed in the first place by just spamming one or two champions in solo queue. Also while I can agree that a system encouraging role exclusivity is not a good thing I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing to play a role exclusively. Most people are going to end up branching out anyways and find two, three, maybe even four roles that they really enjoy playing. If someone wants to specialize in a particular role I don't think that's a bad thing. Show nested quote +On March 14 2013 03:35 cLutZ wrote:On March 14 2013 03:19 overt wrote:
I don't think this is necessarily a problem. Or even true. A lot of people play League. Maybe at high elo when you have a smaller player base and queue times are longer anyways but for the most part I don't think it'd increase queue times that much. And even if it does then it forces people who insist on mid/top to either be patient or play their secondary/third role.
You probably haven't played WOW since they created the automatching dungeon feature have you? I don't play much WoW. But I have a priest so dungeon queue usually wasn't that bad. Still in league you don't have to grind levels to play support or jungle. And if the system was one where you pick like top two roles or top three it wouldn't be that bad. At worst people who can only play mid or top have long queues and at best it'd force them to expand their skills.
Grinding levels had little to do with the lack of healers and tanks in LFD. Healing/tanking required a higher level of personal responsibility and/or knowledge, especially tanking. If all it took was levels the addition of dual-speccing would have solved the disparity instantly.
If nothing else, WoW LFD showed that even when there is an overwhelming incentive to do so, the majority of people will refuse to adapt. Despite all the incentives there was always a much, much longer queue for DPS than the other roles. While some people might take the chance to branch out, I don't imagine LoL would be much different.
On March 14 2013 04:03 Ryuu314 wrote:
Assigning roles before queue pops is also a terrible idea in that you'll get trolls and kids who queue up as support or something to lower queue time then pick a different role anyways.
This probably won't solve the problem entirely, but simply being able to report people w/ chat logs during champ select would help immensely.
The system would definitely have problems without the ability to report people for that. People definitely did this in WoW LFD despite the fact that you're clearly labeled for the role you were assigned.
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On March 14 2013 04:09 overt wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2013 03:57 wei2coolman wrote:
I can't believe people on this thread are actually contemplating that it's a good idea to have assigned roles in queue. I personally believe it's still really weird that solo queue has so little team work or coordination yet is considered the de facto measurement of skill. I'm glad that Riot is doing stuff like letting teams who qualify in ranked 5s go pro to make ranked 5s attractive but solo queue is still a measurement of skill when in my opinion ranked 5s should be what people who are actually serious about this game play. Solo queue should be a fun quick way to play without organizing people. The quickest and easiest way to get into a game as a role you want to play would be with something that lets you pick which roles you want to play. Show nested quote +On March 14 2013 04:03 Ryuu314 wrote:
Assigning roles before queue pops is also a terrible idea in that you'll get trolls and kids who queue up as support or something to lower queue time then pick a different role anyways.
This probably won't solve the problem entirely, but simply being able to report people w/ chat logs during champ select would help immensely. It'd be super easy for Riot to see that person A queue'd up for Support/Jungle/ADC and then locked in Irelia and got reported by their whole team for trolling the queue. Certainly a lot easier than it is now.
that's what normal queue/draft queue is for then. i think you underestimate the amount of things people figure out through solo queue.
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On March 14 2013 03:57 wei2coolman wrote:
I can't believe people on this thread are actually contemplating that it's a good idea to have assigned roles in queue.
Sry mang, I swear it's just some light hearted conversation, nothing serious. I will ask your permission next time I swear.
On March 14 2013 03:58 Lounge wrote:
Role queueing just opens up more problems and I have enough faith in Riot not to go down that role.
It would just change the dynamic of the troll, and not solve anything else. "ADC or feed" becomes "Ban Blitz/lane opponent that counters my favorite champ/ or Heimer ADC" then you get "Pick a real ADC or Trundle Mid" etc.
Someone is always going to complain about something during champ select, the best bet for a change is with the timers the team has to communicate.
People going troll mode cause a champion didn't get banned, or asking to ban a counter pick is already happening, not very often in my experience, but you can't do alot about it. Asking for a ban on a counter pick is actually very smart but very few people do it.
On March 14 2013 04:03 Ryuu314 wrote:
Assigning roles before queue pops is also a terrible idea in that you'll get trolls and kids who queue up as support or something to lower queue time then pick a different role anyways.
This probably won't solve the problem entirely, but simply being able to report people w/ chat logs during champ select would help immensely.
Right now it's not a reportable offense because Riot beleives that these issues are avoided by discution in the game lobby.
Thing is, some people are not really open to discuss things. Personally i'd like to do some strat talk instead of wasting all the time we get to argue about who's going mid.
Some people go into queue with the mindset of "I'm going to play this role", so role picking before the game already exists to an extent. It's just a matter of not having the "infrastructure" built around it, and Riot not banning people the worst of it. you get to champion select. Instantly last pick says "I'm mid". First pick responds "sorry mate, but i'll be playing mid this game". then last pick picks a mid champion too because hey, he called it first. It's not a reportable offense because who does riot ban? the guy that went against the call, or the last pick that called the role first but got "trolled" by the first pick?
Having something built in the client and making it banable for not following, in my opinion would make the experience smotther. Yes at the beggining you will have trolls queueing as support and surprise picking mid, but once the first wave of bans/warnings goes trought it will get better.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-fsMeqs2y6Ys/Ti2yMXwqtfI/AAAAAAAAAOg/2AdDG5s8UP4/s1600/jello.jpg)
