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On March 13 2013 07:10 thenexusp wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2013 07:09 sylverfyre wrote:On March 13 2013 07:06 thenexusp wrote:
And also HSGG won against TSM with no runes at all, can't forget that That argument actually upsets me more than the other ones, especially since hotshot was disallowed from setting up runepages after champ select had begun when it was obviously simply a mistake and he probably didn't realize that LCS was on a different tournament realm with different runepages. It shows that runes aren't as big of an advantage as people make it out to seem. EDIT: I was responding to the comment "you can get to low gold with just one page" ... you can probably go way past low gold with just one page EDIT2: I also find it hard to believe that more rune pages would increase your win rate. You will be stronger, but that just results in you being matched up against stronger opponents, and your winrate should stay around 50% unless you're at the very top or very bottom.
Considering how hard he got beat in lane pretty sure it shows exactly how important they are.Also having one page vs no page is quite a big difference.Just the standart full ad/armor/mr can help for any champion a lot in lane.
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Yeah that's what I thought you actually need 2 Q to kill caster minions with Cass' Q when level 5, I thought the affirmation for one Q strange since you'd need 175 AP to kill them with only one. @_@
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On March 13 2013 07:10 thenexusp wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2013 07:09 sylverfyre wrote:On March 13 2013 07:06 thenexusp wrote:
And also HSGG won against TSM with no runes at all, can't forget that That argument actually upsets me more than the other ones, especially since hotshot was disallowed from setting up runepages after champ select had begun when it was obviously simply a mistake and he probably didn't realize that LCS was on a different tournament realm with different runepages. It shows that runes aren't as big of an advantage as people make it out to seem.EDIT: I was responding to the comment "you can get to low gold with just one page" ... you can probably go way past low gold with just one page EDIT2: I also find it hard to believe that more rune pages would increase your win rate. You will be stronger, but that just results in you being matched up against stronger opponents, and your winrate should stay around 50% unless you're at the very top or very bottom.
No. It just shows Dyrus doesn't know the Nid (HSGG's best champ) vs. Malph matchup very well, was likely too focused on other stuff at the time, and other extraneous factors. Dyrus even said after the game that he didn't know, and if he had he woulda been more aggressive. Plus I'm fairly certain he had TP instead of Ignite.
If it was Jax vs. Irelia or some other S2-ish matchup it would have been a stomp. I won $25 off my ~2k ELO friend (like 600 ELO higher than me at that time) by beating him in a Jax Mirror when he had no runes.
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i really have trouble making quinn work, she is so fun to play but going into lategame i kinda feel like my team is left alone without an adc  which makes me sad cuz she has the most fun abilities (except her ultimate for teamfight lol)
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On March 13 2013 07:26 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2013 07:10 thenexusp wrote:On March 13 2013 07:09 sylverfyre wrote:On March 13 2013 07:06 thenexusp wrote:
And also HSGG won against TSM with no runes at all, can't forget that That argument actually upsets me more than the other ones, especially since hotshot was disallowed from setting up runepages after champ select had begun when it was obviously simply a mistake and he probably didn't realize that LCS was on a different tournament realm with different runepages. It shows that runes aren't as big of an advantage as people make it out to seem.EDIT: I was responding to the comment "you can get to low gold with just one page" ... you can probably go way past low gold with just one page EDIT2: I also find it hard to believe that more rune pages would increase your win rate. You will be stronger, but that just results in you being matched up against stronger opponents, and your winrate should stay around 50% unless you're at the very top or very bottom. No. It just shows Dyrus doesn't know the Nid (HSGG's best champ) vs. Malph matchup very well, was likely too focused on other stuff at the time, and other extraneous factors. Dyrus even said after the game that he didn't know, and if he had he woulda been more aggressive. Plus I'm fairly certain he had TP instead of Ignite. If it was Jax vs. Irelia or some other S2-ish matchup it would have been a stomp. I won $25 off my ~2k ELO friend (like 600 ELO higher than me at that time) by beating him in a Jax Mirror when he had no runes.
No runes vs full runes is a different thing than min-maxed runes vs very good runes though. And that is the point of having multiple rune pages. I also think people have an unhealthy obsession with min-maxing and confuse this desire with necessity. The fact that there are people at the very top of the ladder running only 3 pages dispels the myth that you need to buy many many runepages to be competitive.
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On March 13 2013 07:26 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2013 07:10 thenexusp wrote:On March 13 2013 07:09 sylverfyre wrote:On March 13 2013 07:06 thenexusp wrote:
And also HSGG won against TSM with no runes at all, can't forget that That argument actually upsets me more than the other ones, especially since hotshot was disallowed from setting up runepages after champ select had begun when it was obviously simply a mistake and he probably didn't realize that LCS was on a different tournament realm with different runepages. It shows that runes aren't as big of an advantage as people make it out to seem.EDIT: I was responding to the comment "you can get to low gold with just one page" ... you can probably go way past low gold with just one page EDIT2: I also find it hard to believe that more rune pages would increase your win rate. You will be stronger, but that just results in you being matched up against stronger opponents, and your winrate should stay around 50% unless you're at the very top or very bottom. No. It just shows Dyrus doesn't know the Nid (HSGG's best champ) vs. Malph matchup very well, was likely too focused on other stuff at the time, and other extraneous factors. Dyrus even said after the game that he didn't know, and if he had he woulda been more aggressive. Plus I'm fairly certain he had TP instead of Ignite. If it was Jax vs. Irelia or some other S2-ish matchup it would have been a stomp. I won $25 off my ~2k ELO friend (like 600 ELO higher than me at that time) by beating him in a Jax Mirror when he had no runes.
I thought it was Elise vs Malph(HSGG) that he had no runes on. Also they let another game restart after someone messed up their runes so I think HSGG just forgot about them until it was too late?
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For me, Riot's system is perfect. I have 25 champions, and 2 pages, but I really don't feel like I'm handicapped in any way, I think complaining about runes is just a cover up because people don't like to admit they were outplayed. Like that guy on the last page said, some people in challenger only have 3 - 4 pages.
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On March 13 2013 07:32 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2013 07:26 cLutZ wrote:On March 13 2013 07:10 thenexusp wrote:On March 13 2013 07:09 sylverfyre wrote:On March 13 2013 07:06 thenexusp wrote:
And also HSGG won against TSM with no runes at all, can't forget that That argument actually upsets me more than the other ones, especially since hotshot was disallowed from setting up runepages after champ select had begun when it was obviously simply a mistake and he probably didn't realize that LCS was on a different tournament realm with different runepages. It shows that runes aren't as big of an advantage as people make it out to seem.EDIT: I was responding to the comment "you can get to low gold with just one page" ... you can probably go way past low gold with just one page EDIT2: I also find it hard to believe that more rune pages would increase your win rate. You will be stronger, but that just results in you being matched up against stronger opponents, and your winrate should stay around 50% unless you're at the very top or very bottom. No. It just shows Dyrus doesn't know the Nid (HSGG's best champ) vs. Malph matchup very well, was likely too focused on other stuff at the time, and other extraneous factors. Dyrus even said after the game that he didn't know, and if he had he woulda been more aggressive. Plus I'm fairly certain he had TP instead of Ignite. If it was Jax vs. Irelia or some other S2-ish matchup it would have been a stomp. I won $25 off my ~2k ELO friend (like 600 ELO higher than me at that time) by beating him in a Jax Mirror when he had no runes. I thought it was Elise vs Malph(HSGG) that he had no runes on. Also they let another game restart after someone messed up their runes so I think HSGG just forgot about them until it was too late?
Yea that is correct. Was thinking oddly.
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On March 13 2013 07:17 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2013 06:35 AsnSensation wrote:
Has anyone played around with AP varus? I just played a blindpick game to try it out, admittedly was abit fed but 3 autos into e/q proc for 40-60% max Health magic dmg was hilarious. Went Nashor's tooth-Dcap-zhonyas Nashor's is definitely the correct start. I like DFG over Deathcap for additional CDR and burst. You'll have less AP, but the active does additional maximum Health % damage and enhances your burst further (3 autos -> DFG -> proc is a ton of burst, especially if you have the opportunity to proc with R). The real expert, or at least dabbler, for AP Varus on TL is phyvo.
Thx I will try Nash into DFG, what do you think about Ruunan's? Since as AP Varus spreading w stacks is actually useful it might be an item to consider though I think Nashor's is too good of an item and getting ruunans additionally is probably AS overkill, and buying more AP would be better.
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On March 13 2013 07:09 sylverfyre wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2013 07:06 thenexusp wrote:
And also HSGG won against TSM with no runes at all, can't forget that That argument actually upsets me more than the other ones, especially since hotshot was disallowed from setting up runepages after champ select had begun when it was obviously simply a mistake and he probably didn't realize that LCS was on a different tournament realm with different runepages. Runes are like 1000 gold (give or take) or so worth of stats at level 1. It's a silly handicap that you have to grind as much as you do before you have access to the mere OPTION of running more than 2 sets. A competitive game should not be so VASTLY different when played at the amateur level and the pro level. From Sirlin's blog (a respected board game designer): Show nested quote +
Extra Credits mentioned League of Legends, and as someone interested in the future of games, I have to fault any mention of the game that doesn't include a mention that a competitive game shouldn't have a forced grind (even for those willing to pay) to get gameplay-relevant elements. It would be ridiculous in Street Fighter to force a grind to be able to pick the real Blanka, it would be ridiculous in Starcraft to force a grind to be able to pick the real Protoss, and it *is* ridiculous in League of Legends that a forced grind is part of a competitive game. It goes against the sprit of competition to throw up an artificial, time-wasting barrier where you play some different game until you finally get to play the real one. Don't let that cancer infect other competitive games.
His complaint is a lot more broad, but it rings disturbingly loudly. My own suggestion is pretty tame, and specifically targets the problem of the lowering the barrier of entry. I'm not going to try and address the conflict between what about the spirit of competition, and Riot's business model. First additional runepage: 1350 IP Second additional runepage: 3150 IP Third additional runepage: 4800 IP Every runepage thereafter: 6300 IP.
Your idea is fine, laudable even, but I disagree with the reasoning which motivated it. The amateur level of play is not different from the competitive level because of runes, masteries, or even champions, but because the vast, vast majority of amateur players are far, far worse at the game than the professionals. It's the same way chess, soccer, or even the 21 game are different when comparing amateurs to experts. The chasm in skill is a result of experience, knowledge, and practice; the quality of the chess board/soccer ball has an extremely limited impact.
You can't have a game where there's no difference between the amateur level of play and the competitive unless you remove skill from the equation, whether it be mechanical, strategical, or tactical.
That's all without taking into account that the competitive level is played 5v5, rather than 1+1+1+1+1 v 1+1+1+1+1 (and other variations thereof).
On March 13 2013 07:45 AsnSensation wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2013 07:17 Seuss wrote:On March 13 2013 06:35 AsnSensation wrote:
Has anyone played around with AP varus? I just played a blindpick game to try it out, admittedly was abit fed but 3 autos into e/q proc for 40-60% max Health magic dmg was hilarious. Went Nashor's tooth-Dcap-zhonyas Nashor's is definitely the correct start. I like DFG over Deathcap for additional CDR and burst. You'll have less AP, but the active does additional maximum Health % damage and enhances your burst further (3 autos -> DFG -> proc is a ton of burst, especially if you have the opportunity to proc with R). The real expert, or at least dabbler, for AP Varus on TL is phyvo. Thx I will try Nash into DFG, what do you think about Ruunan's? Since as AP Varus spreading w stacks is actually useful it might be an item to consider though I think Nashor's is too good of an item and getting ruunans additionally is probably AS overkill, and buying more AP would be better.
The problem with Runaan's is that you're rarely going to hit multiple targets with it enough for it to be more valuable than just about any other item. Nashor's combination of AP, CDR, and AS is too powerful to really consider something like Runaan's.
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United States37500 Posts
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If Zac an April fools day joke I be so pissed.
lol.
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On March 13 2013 07:52 NeoIllusions wrote:lololol Zac
I was getting all hyped for the new champion until that image.
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On March 13 2013 07:10 thenexusp wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2013 07:09 sylverfyre wrote:On March 13 2013 07:06 thenexusp wrote:
And also HSGG won against TSM with no runes at all, can't forget that That argument actually upsets me more than the other ones, especially since hotshot was disallowed from setting up runepages after champ select had begun when it was obviously simply a mistake and he probably didn't realize that LCS was on a different tournament realm with different runepages. It shows that runes aren't as big of an advantage as people make it out to seem. EDIT: I was responding to the comment "you can get to low gold with just one page" ... you can probably go way past low gold with just one page
lol you can go wherever you want with one page, if you're good enough to win through a disadvantage. Of course if your skill isn't arbitrarily high it's going to have an impact.
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On March 13 2013 07:50 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2013 07:09 sylverfyre wrote:On March 13 2013 07:06 thenexusp wrote:
And also HSGG won against TSM with no runes at all, can't forget that That argument actually upsets me more than the other ones, especially since hotshot was disallowed from setting up runepages after champ select had begun when it was obviously simply a mistake and he probably didn't realize that LCS was on a different tournament realm with different runepages. Runes are like 1000 gold (give or take) or so worth of stats at level 1. It's a silly handicap that you have to grind as much as you do before you have access to the mere OPTION of running more than 2 sets. A competitive game should not be so VASTLY different when played at the amateur level and the pro level. From Sirlin's blog (a respected board game designer):
Extra Credits mentioned League of Legends, and as someone interested in the future of games, I have to fault any mention of the game that doesn't include a mention that a competitive game shouldn't have a forced grind (even for those willing to pay) to get gameplay-relevant elements. It would be ridiculous in Street Fighter to force a grind to be able to pick the real Blanka, it would be ridiculous in Starcraft to force a grind to be able to pick the real Protoss, and it *is* ridiculous in League of Legends that a forced grind is part of a competitive game. It goes against the sprit of competition to throw up an artificial, time-wasting barrier where you play some different game until you finally get to play the real one. Don't let that cancer infect other competitive games.
His complaint is a lot more broad, but it rings disturbingly loudly. My own suggestion is pretty tame, and specifically targets the problem of the lowering the barrier of entry. I'm not going to try and address the conflict between what about the spirit of competition, and Riot's business model. First additional runepage: 1350 IP Second additional runepage: 3150 IP Third additional runepage: 4800 IP Every runepage thereafter: 6300 IP. Your idea is fine, laudable even, but I disagree with the reasoning which motivated it. The amateur level of play is not different from the competitive level because of runes, masteries, or even champions, but because the vast, vast majority of amateur players are far, far worse at the game than the professionals. It's the same way chess, soccer, or even the 21 game are different when comparing amateurs to experts. The chasm in skill is a result of experience, knowledge, and practice; the quality of the chess board/soccer ball has an extremely limited impact. You can't have a game where there's no difference between the amateur level of play and the competitive unless you remove skill from the equation, whether it be mechanical, strategical, or tactical. That's all without taking into account that the competitive level is played 5v5, rather than 1+1+1+1+1 v 1+1+1+1+1 (and other variations thereof).
The thing is, in all the other games you describe, there is a chasm of skill.
In league, there is not only a chasm of skill but also a chasm of resources. At this point, with a large handful of the 'resources' I'd consider myself "close enough" to the same playing field (with respect to RESOURCES and not to SKILL) as the pros. Runes and runepages and champion pools are these resources. In Starcraft, or Chess, or Street Fighter, or Soccer, all the resources are available to all players, regardless of skill level. In league this is not the case. I find this to be against the spirit of competition, but, like I said before - I don't really want to fight that battle because it is antithetical to Riot's business model, and companies have to have a business model. (I like Riot's business model for other reasons, even!)
To get here, I have played for a thousand games and also bought a significant amount of RP. I don't think it should take new players as long as it took me to reach this point. I'll also point out that I was around when they gave out a Runepage for free, which greatly improved my experience with the game around the time that I got it. I was dumping almost all my IP into runes for a very long time, only occasionally spending IP on a 1350 or 3150 champ that I liked playing during free week.
It takes me less time (in both hours and days) to start a new character in WoW, level it up to the cap, and grind up the best available PVP gear so that I can play competitive arena. That, to me, is a problem.
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I personally think of runes like this, having a normal rune page is essentially the equivalent of buying a decent golf club at your local sports shop, it does its job well and doesn't make much of a difference until you get to a pro level. The problem is that to function effectively as a golfer you need at least a wood driver, an iron (or 2), a putter, and a wedge, but riot only gives you a bag that you can put 2 clubs in until you pay up.
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Everyone should get 5, but that would cut into their profits. Other than that runes are fine.
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On March 13 2013 08:04 sylverfyre wrote:I was getting all hyped for the new champion until that image.
I was thinking people'd get another monster... nope. Not-humanised stuff doesn't sell, they say. 
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On March 13 2013 08:11 Kupon3ss wrote:
I personally think of runes like this, having a normal rune page is essentially the equivalent of buying a decent golf club at your local sports shop, it does its job well and doesn't make much of a difference until you get to a pro level. The problem is that to function effectively as a golfer you need at least a wood driver, an iron (or 2), a putter, and a wedge, but riot only gives you a bag that you can put 2 clubs in until you pay up.
Yet you can purchase all of those "clubs" if you have money, or you can work for them until you can afford them.
Same thing in League, but people just want things handed to them instead of having to work for it. You're not going to go to a golf store where the owner just says, "Oh! You want to start playing golf? Here, take all these clubs!!".
Edit: Like I said, giving people a couple of starting pages is fine. If you want to buy champions and whatnot instead of more rune pages though, that's on you.
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On March 13 2013 08:16 Mondeezy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2013 08:11 Kupon3ss wrote:
I personally think of runes like this, having a normal rune page is essentially the equivalent of buying a decent golf club at your local sports shop, it does its job well and doesn't make much of a difference until you get to a pro level. The problem is that to function effectively as a golfer you need at least a wood driver, an iron (or 2), a putter, and a wedge, but riot only gives you a bag that you can put 2 clubs in until you pay up. Yet you can purchase all of those "clubs" if you have money, or you can work for them until you can afford them. Same thing in League, but people just want things handed to them instead of having to work for it. You're not going to go to a golf store where the owner just says, "Oh! You want to start playing golf? Here, take all these clubs!!".
well if his big draw was that you can play for free he probably should lol
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EPT
