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also I find it kind of amusing when people talk about 'earning' unlocks in games.
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On March 13 2013 07:32 NovaTheFeared wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2013 07:26 cLutZ wrote:On March 13 2013 07:10 thenexusp wrote:On March 13 2013 07:09 sylverfyre wrote:On March 13 2013 07:06 thenexusp wrote:
And also HSGG won against TSM with no runes at all, can't forget that That argument actually upsets me more than the other ones, especially since hotshot was disallowed from setting up runepages after champ select had begun when it was obviously simply a mistake and he probably didn't realize that LCS was on a different tournament realm with different runepages. It shows that runes aren't as big of an advantage as people make it out to seem.EDIT: I was responding to the comment "you can get to low gold with just one page" ... you can probably go way past low gold with just one page EDIT2: I also find it hard to believe that more rune pages would increase your win rate. You will be stronger, but that just results in you being matched up against stronger opponents, and your winrate should stay around 50% unless you're at the very top or very bottom. No. It just shows Dyrus doesn't know the Nid (HSGG's best champ) vs. Malph matchup very well, was likely too focused on other stuff at the time, and other extraneous factors. Dyrus even said after the game that he didn't know, and if he had he woulda been more aggressive. Plus I'm fairly certain he had TP instead of Ignite. If it was Jax vs. Irelia or some other S2-ish matchup it would have been a stomp. I won $25 off my ~2k ELO friend (like 600 ELO higher than me at that time) by beating him in a Jax Mirror when he had no runes. No runes vs full runes is a different thing than min-maxed runes vs very good runes though. And that is the point of having multiple rune pages. I also think people have an unhealthy obsession with min-maxing and confuse this desire with necessity. The fact that there are people at the very top of the ladder running only 3 pages dispels the myth that you need to buy many many runepages to be competitive.
It is important to note that people in challengers tier usually get the role they want, there are players that only play like 1 to 2 roles
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On March 13 2013 08:17 UniversalSnip wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2013 08:16 Mondeezy wrote:On March 13 2013 08:11 Kupon3ss wrote:
I personally think of runes like this, having a normal rune page is essentially the equivalent of buying a decent golf club at your local sports shop, it does its job well and doesn't make much of a difference until you get to a pro level. The problem is that to function effectively as a golfer you need at least a wood driver, an iron (or 2), a putter, and a wedge, but riot only gives you a bag that you can put 2 clubs in until you pay up. Yet you can purchase all of those "clubs" if you have money, or you can work for them until you can afford them. Same thing in League, but people just want things handed to them instead of having to work for it. You're not going to go to a golf store where the owner just says, "Oh! You want to start playing golf? Here, take all these clubs!!". well if his big draw was that you can play for free he probably should lol
Eh, not like you can't play the game for free. You still have access to everything minus skins/boosts without paying a dime.
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United States23745 Posts
On March 13 2013 08:16 Alaric wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2013 08:04 sylverfyre wrote:On March 13 2013 07:52 NeoIllusions wrote:lololol Zac I was getting all hyped for the new champion until that image. I was thinking people'd get another monster... nope. Not-humanised stuff doesn't sell, they say. 
It's still a monster...technically. There hasn't been a non-bipedal champ since Hec, and even he's still half human lol. I was really hoping for an amorphous blob.
This is what I had in mind.
+ Show Spoiler +
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On March 13 2013 08:26 Mondeezy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2013 08:17 UniversalSnip wrote:On March 13 2013 08:16 Mondeezy wrote:On March 13 2013 08:11 Kupon3ss wrote:
I personally think of runes like this, having a normal rune page is essentially the equivalent of buying a decent golf club at your local sports shop, it does its job well and doesn't make much of a difference until you get to a pro level. The problem is that to function effectively as a golfer you need at least a wood driver, an iron (or 2), a putter, and a wedge, but riot only gives you a bag that you can put 2 clubs in until you pay up. Yet you can purchase all of those "clubs" if you have money, or you can work for them until you can afford them. Same thing in League, but people just want things handed to them instead of having to work for it. You're not going to go to a golf store where the owner just says, "Oh! You want to start playing golf? Here, take all these clubs!!". well if his big draw was that you can play for free he probably should lol Eh, not like you can't play the game for free. You still have access to everything minus skins/boosts without paying a dime.
Only if you play for thousands of hours. The whole argument (at least, the part I find worth arguing at all) is that the grind to entry is unacceptably large.
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On March 13 2013 08:24 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2013 07:32 NovaTheFeared wrote:On March 13 2013 07:26 cLutZ wrote:On March 13 2013 07:10 thenexusp wrote:On March 13 2013 07:09 sylverfyre wrote:On March 13 2013 07:06 thenexusp wrote:
And also HSGG won against TSM with no runes at all, can't forget that That argument actually upsets me more than the other ones, especially since hotshot was disallowed from setting up runepages after champ select had begun when it was obviously simply a mistake and he probably didn't realize that LCS was on a different tournament realm with different runepages. It shows that runes aren't as big of an advantage as people make it out to seem.EDIT: I was responding to the comment "you can get to low gold with just one page" ... you can probably go way past low gold with just one page EDIT2: I also find it hard to believe that more rune pages would increase your win rate. You will be stronger, but that just results in you being matched up against stronger opponents, and your winrate should stay around 50% unless you're at the very top or very bottom. No. It just shows Dyrus doesn't know the Nid (HSGG's best champ) vs. Malph matchup very well, was likely too focused on other stuff at the time, and other extraneous factors. Dyrus even said after the game that he didn't know, and if he had he woulda been more aggressive. Plus I'm fairly certain he had TP instead of Ignite. If it was Jax vs. Irelia or some other S2-ish matchup it would have been a stomp. I won $25 off my ~2k ELO friend (like 600 ELO higher than me at that time) by beating him in a Jax Mirror when he had no runes. No runes vs full runes is a different thing than min-maxed runes vs very good runes though. And that is the point of having multiple rune pages. I also think people have an unhealthy obsession with min-maxing and confuse this desire with necessity. The fact that there are people at the very top of the ladder running only 3 pages dispels the myth that you need to buy many many runepages to be competitive. It is important to note that people in challengers tier usually get the role they want, there are players that only play like 1 to 2 roles
Truth. All this Runepage talk makes me want to buy more runes. Especially Hybrid Pen Reds, And Seals that are not Armor (which I run on every page, because why not?).
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United States23745 Posts
On March 13 2013 08:28 sylverfyre wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2013 08:26 Mondeezy wrote:On March 13 2013 08:17 UniversalSnip wrote:On March 13 2013 08:16 Mondeezy wrote:On March 13 2013 08:11 Kupon3ss wrote:
I personally think of runes like this, having a normal rune page is essentially the equivalent of buying a decent golf club at your local sports shop, it does its job well and doesn't make much of a difference until you get to a pro level. The problem is that to function effectively as a golfer you need at least a wood driver, an iron (or 2), a putter, and a wedge, but riot only gives you a bag that you can put 2 clubs in until you pay up. Yet you can purchase all of those "clubs" if you have money, or you can work for them until you can afford them. Same thing in League, but people just want things handed to them instead of having to work for it. You're not going to go to a golf store where the owner just says, "Oh! You want to start playing golf? Here, take all these clubs!!". well if his big draw was that you can play for free he probably should lol Eh, not like you can't play the game for free. You still have access to everything minus skins/boosts without paying a dime. Only if you play for thousands of hours.
I don't even want to think about how many hours I've spent playing this game, let alone watching tournaments.
On March 13 2013 08:28 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2013 08:24 wei2coolman wrote:On March 13 2013 07:32 NovaTheFeared wrote:On March 13 2013 07:26 cLutZ wrote:On March 13 2013 07:10 thenexusp wrote:On March 13 2013 07:09 sylverfyre wrote:On March 13 2013 07:06 thenexusp wrote:
And also HSGG won against TSM with no runes at all, can't forget that That argument actually upsets me more than the other ones, especially since hotshot was disallowed from setting up runepages after champ select had begun when it was obviously simply a mistake and he probably didn't realize that LCS was on a different tournament realm with different runepages. It shows that runes aren't as big of an advantage as people make it out to seem.EDIT: I was responding to the comment "you can get to low gold with just one page" ... you can probably go way past low gold with just one page EDIT2: I also find it hard to believe that more rune pages would increase your win rate. You will be stronger, but that just results in you being matched up against stronger opponents, and your winrate should stay around 50% unless you're at the very top or very bottom. No. It just shows Dyrus doesn't know the Nid (HSGG's best champ) vs. Malph matchup very well, was likely too focused on other stuff at the time, and other extraneous factors. Dyrus even said after the game that he didn't know, and if he had he woulda been more aggressive. Plus I'm fairly certain he had TP instead of Ignite. If it was Jax vs. Irelia or some other S2-ish matchup it would have been a stomp. I won $25 off my ~2k ELO friend (like 600 ELO higher than me at that time) by beating him in a Jax Mirror when he had no runes. No runes vs full runes is a different thing than min-maxed runes vs very good runes though. And that is the point of having multiple rune pages. I also think people have an unhealthy obsession with min-maxing and confuse this desire with necessity. The fact that there are people at the very top of the ladder running only 3 pages dispels the myth that you need to buy many many runepages to be competitive. It is important to note that people in challengers tier usually get the role they want, there are players that only play like 1 to 2 roles Truth. All this Runepage talk makes me want to buy more runes. Especially Hybrid Pen Reds, And Seals that are not Armor (which I run on every page, because why not?).
Armor Seals easily most used rune purchase lol.
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I just bought 3 lifesteal quints. I blame Monty for berating me yesterday on stream. 
Also bought another 7 runepage bundle last week. Heh.
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The main problem with the current runepage system is that it is a very mild form of selling power. If you could change runes in lobby like with masteries then it would be fairer. And people would still buy the pages because that would be a massive pain in the arse to do that each game.
It might even have a positive impact on revenues as players tried a broader variety of runes, using more IP there and so had less for champs.
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United States23745 Posts
On March 13 2013 08:30 Tal wrote:
The main problem with the current runepage system is that it is a very mild form of selling power. If you could change runes in lobby like with masteries then it would be fairer. And people would still buy the pages because that would be a massive pain in the arse to do that each game.
It might even have a positive impact on revenues as players tried a broader variety of runes, using more IP there and so had less for champs.
I don't think this is true. Make rune pages changeable at champ select and rune page sales drop drastically. Considering how affective it is to just buy rune pages with RP I don't think it would be too much of a stretch to assume Riot makes a lot of money off of them.
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On March 13 2013 08:28 sylverfyre wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2013 08:26 Mondeezy wrote:On March 13 2013 08:17 UniversalSnip wrote:On March 13 2013 08:16 Mondeezy wrote:On March 13 2013 08:11 Kupon3ss wrote:
I personally think of runes like this, having a normal rune page is essentially the equivalent of buying a decent golf club at your local sports shop, it does its job well and doesn't make much of a difference until you get to a pro level. The problem is that to function effectively as a golfer you need at least a wood driver, an iron (or 2), a putter, and a wedge, but riot only gives you a bag that you can put 2 clubs in until you pay up. Yet you can purchase all of those "clubs" if you have money, or you can work for them until you can afford them. Same thing in League, but people just want things handed to them instead of having to work for it. You're not going to go to a golf store where the owner just says, "Oh! You want to start playing golf? Here, take all these clubs!!". well if his big draw was that you can play for free he probably should lol Eh, not like you can't play the game for free. You still have access to everything minus skins/boosts without paying a dime. Only if you play for thousands of hours. The whole argument (at least, the part I find worth arguing at all) is that the grind to entry is unacceptably large.
Hence why I suggested having three "starter pages" when you hit twenty which you can fill with any runes you'd like, at no cost.
What I don't understand is why people expect to have the same things as another who either put a lot of time in, or spent $.
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On March 13 2013 08:28 sylverfyre wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2013 08:26 Mondeezy wrote:On March 13 2013 08:17 UniversalSnip wrote:On March 13 2013 08:16 Mondeezy wrote:On March 13 2013 08:11 Kupon3ss wrote:
I personally think of runes like this, having a normal rune page is essentially the equivalent of buying a decent golf club at your local sports shop, it does its job well and doesn't make much of a difference until you get to a pro level. The problem is that to function effectively as a golfer you need at least a wood driver, an iron (or 2), a putter, and a wedge, but riot only gives you a bag that you can put 2 clubs in until you pay up. Yet you can purchase all of those "clubs" if you have money, or you can work for them until you can afford them. Same thing in League, but people just want things handed to them instead of having to work for it. You're not going to go to a golf store where the owner just says, "Oh! You want to start playing golf? Here, take all these clubs!!". well if his big draw was that you can play for free he probably should lol Eh, not like you can't play the game for free. You still have access to everything minus skins/boosts without paying a dime. Only if you play for thousands of hours. The whole argument (at least, the part I find worth arguing at all) is that the grind to entry is unacceptably large.
unacceptable for who? Maybe people who have to work jobs to earn money which can be used to pay for a game with certainly ISNT free to make and maintain.
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On March 13 2013 08:29 sylverfyre wrote:I just bought 3 lifesteal quints. I blame Monty for berating me yesterday on stream. Also bought another 7 runepage bundle last week. Heh.
I feel like I need to make it up to you.
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On March 13 2013 08:27 onlywonderboy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2013 08:16 Alaric wrote:On March 13 2013 08:04 sylverfyre wrote:On March 13 2013 07:52 NeoIllusions wrote:lololol Zac I was getting all hyped for the new champion until that image. I was thinking people'd get another monster... nope. Not-humanised stuff doesn't sell, they say. It's still a monster...technically. There hasn't been a non-bipedal champ since Hec, and even he's still half human lol. I was really hoping for an amorphous blob. This is what I had in mind. + Show Spoiler +
He looks like the pink DBZ villian, boo? I think..
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On March 13 2013 08:09 sylverfyre wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2013 07:50 Seuss wrote:On March 13 2013 07:09 sylverfyre wrote:On March 13 2013 07:06 thenexusp wrote:
And also HSGG won against TSM with no runes at all, can't forget that That argument actually upsets me more than the other ones, especially since hotshot was disallowed from setting up runepages after champ select had begun when it was obviously simply a mistake and he probably didn't realize that LCS was on a different tournament realm with different runepages. Runes are like 1000 gold (give or take) or so worth of stats at level 1. It's a silly handicap that you have to grind as much as you do before you have access to the mere OPTION of running more than 2 sets. A competitive game should not be so VASTLY different when played at the amateur level and the pro level. From Sirlin's blog (a respected board game designer):
Extra Credits mentioned League of Legends, and as someone interested in the future of games, I have to fault any mention of the game that doesn't include a mention that a competitive game shouldn't have a forced grind (even for those willing to pay) to get gameplay-relevant elements. It would be ridiculous in Street Fighter to force a grind to be able to pick the real Blanka, it would be ridiculous in Starcraft to force a grind to be able to pick the real Protoss, and it *is* ridiculous in League of Legends that a forced grind is part of a competitive game. It goes against the sprit of competition to throw up an artificial, time-wasting barrier where you play some different game until you finally get to play the real one. Don't let that cancer infect other competitive games.
His complaint is a lot more broad, but it rings disturbingly loudly. My own suggestion is pretty tame, and specifically targets the problem of the lowering the barrier of entry. I'm not going to try and address the conflict between what about the spirit of competition, and Riot's business model. First additional runepage: 1350 IP Second additional runepage: 3150 IP Third additional runepage: 4800 IP Every runepage thereafter: 6300 IP. Your idea is fine, laudable even, but I disagree with the reasoning which motivated it. The amateur level of play is not different from the competitive level because of runes, masteries, or even champions, but because the vast, vast majority of amateur players are far, far worse at the game than the professionals. It's the same way chess, soccer, or even the 21 game are different when comparing amateurs to experts. The chasm in skill is a result of experience, knowledge, and practice; the quality of the chess board/soccer ball has an extremely limited impact. You can't have a game where there's no difference between the amateur level of play and the competitive unless you remove skill from the equation, whether it be mechanical, strategical, or tactical. That's all without taking into account that the competitive level is played 5v5, rather than 1+1+1+1+1 v 1+1+1+1+1 (and other variations thereof). The thing is, in all the other games you describe, there is a chasm of skill. In league, there is not only a chasm of skill but also a chasm of resources. At this point, with a large handful of the 'resources' I'd consider myself "close enough" to the same playing field (with respect to RESOURCES and not to SKILL) as the pros. Runes and runepages and champion pools are these resources. In Starcraft, or Chess, or Street Fighter, or Soccer, all the resources are available to all players, regardless of skill level. In league this is not the case. I find this to be against the spirit of competition, but, like I said before - I don't really want to fight that battle because it is antithetical to Riot's business model, and companies have to have a business model. (I like Riot's business model for other reasons, even!) To get here, I have played for a thousand games and also bought a significant amount of RP. I don't think it should take new players as long as it took me to reach this point. I'll also point out that I was around when they gave out a Runepage for free, which greatly improved my experience with the game around the time that I got it. I was dumping almost all my IP into runes for a very long time, only occasionally spending IP on a 1350 or 3150 champ that I liked playing during free week. It takes me less time (in both hours and days) to start a new character in WoW, level it up to the cap, and grind up the best available PVP gear so that I can play competitive arena. That, to me, is a problem.
On the other hand, consider experience as a resource rather than skill The difference between a new chess player and a professional chess player is not just that one is "more skilled" but that one has played tens of thousands of games and has the knowledge attained in that. He does not have to critically evaluate an opening position because having seen ten thousand openings he knows from experience which are valuable.
While it is true that in league this experience gap still exists, it is also true that by forcing players to achieve the resource plateau's it forces players to have experience before diving into competitive play. This allows both highly skilled and low skilled players to play on the same ladder, without having to worry about what happens when thousands of new players enter the competition with no experience.
On March 13 2013 05:52 Kupon3ss wrote:
Nonetheless you'll need at least 3 rune pages to play every role and not be awful. Even assuming generic AD/AP pages, you'd still need another for support since playing most supports with a standard AP/AD page is fairly silly. A lot of Jungers can more or less work off normal pages.
Being convient is one thing, but it'd be more or less if you can configure your rune pages in champion select the way you can masteries, without 3 pages players will be at a significant disadvantage (probably around lv 25 vs lv 30 or so) in at least one role.
AD/Armor/MR/MS works just fine on supports. I have 10 rune pages and run AD reds on my ranged supports. Its not perfect but its not bad.
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I've got one page for support could easily have one page for top and mid and jungle the same if you pick similar champs
I could probably get to diamond with a new account using only 2 pages
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Actually when I heard about ZAC I was thinking:
![[image loading]](http://oyster.ignimgs.com/mediawiki/apis.ign.com/pokemon-blue-version/d/dd/Ditto.gif)
And that picture didn't change my mind.
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On March 13 2013 08:26 Mondeezy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2013 08:17 UniversalSnip wrote:On March 13 2013 08:16 Mondeezy wrote:On March 13 2013 08:11 Kupon3ss wrote:
I personally think of runes like this, having a normal rune page is essentially the equivalent of buying a decent golf club at your local sports shop, it does its job well and doesn't make much of a difference until you get to a pro level. The problem is that to function effectively as a golfer you need at least a wood driver, an iron (or 2), a putter, and a wedge, but riot only gives you a bag that you can put 2 clubs in until you pay up. Yet you can purchase all of those "clubs" if you have money, or you can work for them until you can afford them. Same thing in League, but people just want things handed to them instead of having to work for it. You're not going to go to a golf store where the owner just says, "Oh! You want to start playing golf? Here, take all these clubs!!". well if his big draw was that you can play for free he probably should lol Eh, not like you can't play the game for free. You still have access to everything minus skins/boosts without paying a dime.
step one use analogy to advance argument
step two abandon it as soon as it's criticized since it actually works the opposite way
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also I haven't spent a cent on LoL
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i was personally hoping for this
![[image loading]](http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQMyktHexhZ6KkmixgFI78V9ZbCenQKEpkW9rWBw4_JynMCbhKjPA)
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EPT![[image loading]](http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-fsMeqs2y6Ys/Ti2yMXwqtfI/AAAAAAAAAOg/2AdDG5s8UP4/s1600/jello.jpg)
