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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
Triforce can afford to have wasted stats, BotRK can't. On February 15 2013 07:54 Requizen wrote: Zephyr gives more MS, more AS, and CDR for your escapes. How does that matter when we're comparing Triforce+Zephyr vs. BotRK+Zephyr, and both builds have Zephyr? | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
I just tried that on Kayle, but the other Kayle is still better. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
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Phunkapotamus
United States496 Posts
On February 15 2013 08:00 TheYango wrote: It's disingenuous to say "Triforce has wasted stats when BotRK doesn't" when from a stats perspective, BotRK doesn't even break even and Triforce is worth 1200 more gold than it costs, without considering the passives. Even if you use neither Sheen stat, Triforce is better than cost-efficient. Triforce can afford to have wasted stats, BotRK can't. How does that matter when we're comparing Triforce+Zephyr vs. BotRK+Zephyr, and both builds have Zephyr? Wait, why doesn't BotRK break even? The active and passive have to equate to 700g for break-even status. The passive is definitely worth 700g, unless the target is very low hp. A target with 400hp takes only 20 bonus damage (and gives you 20 HP) which is 800g. Granted, this can't crit or be accounted for in AD ratios, but certainly showing the bonus at this low HP level should show that the passive is worth the gold. Active ability range is so low as to not be considered useful in 90% of an adc's life. I wouldn't even consider it as part of cost justification for any argument about the item for an adc. | ||
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phyvo
United States5635 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On February 15 2013 08:08 Phunkapotamus wrote: Active ability range is so low as to not be considered useful in 90% of an adc's life. I wouldn't even consider it as part of cost justification for any argument about the item for an adc. I've said that this is the biggest thing that hamstrings BotRK since the beginning TBH. The item would be a lot better if the range upgraded as much as Gunblade's. | ||
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RagequitBM
Canada2270 Posts
I'm also a little bit confused with what Yango is saying. Are you saying that the standard order we're doing now is stronger? Or just on those late game focused champions. You always seem to be correct when you theorycraft. | ||
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Phunkapotamus
United States496 Posts
On February 15 2013 08:11 TheYango wrote: I wasn't including the passives in the raw stats comparison for "break-even" for either item. The point is to illustrate that BotRK HAS to use everything to be effective, whereas Triforce is an item deliberately designed to not need everything to be useful to be effective, so saying that not everything on Triforce is useful is pretty much a given. That's a fair point. However, I believe that since the BotRK passive can be quantified, it can be taken into account for cost analysis. Though there would need to be some work to determine the cost of non-crittable AD gold. I don't have the formula, but it is possible to quantify this type of bonus- as opposed to TF's slow or other situational passives that cannot be quantified. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On February 15 2013 08:13 RagequitBM wrote: I would assume the active is more for self-peel. Especially with a zephyr. I'm also a little bit confused with what Yango is saying. Are you saying that the standard order we're doing now is stronger? Or just on those late game focused champions. You always seem to be correct when you theorycraft. I'm saying that if you want effectiveness early on (1-2 item timing), Triforce is stronger and transitions better into lategame. If you want effectiveness later on, IE/PD/BT/etc. is better. If your damage is heavily based on AD-scaling abilities, BT is better. There might be a niche of champions that don't have AD scaling abilities, aren't suited for IE/PD/etc. 3+ item lategame, and has a kit that's REALLY unsuited for Triforce (and therefore BotRK+Zephyr actually does have higher effectiveness than Triforce+Zephyr), but I can't think of a champ that fits that mold. The best example I can think of is Twitch in a game that's not suitable for you to go for lategame because you need to have midgame teamfighting effectiveness for whatever reason. Triforce really isn't that suitable for Twitch compared to BotRK specifically because of how his ult works (Sheen proc applies only to first hit target, BotRK proc applies to all targets hit). | ||
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Arekan
United States248 Posts
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RagequitBM
Canada2270 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On February 15 2013 08:21 Arekan wrote: The only champion that I can think of that might fall under these conditions is maybe Shen. Otherwise, it doesn't really seem all that likely that botrk would be all that useful. I'm not sure I even agree with that because Shen is a pretty damn good Triforce user. | ||
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Purge
Canada372 Posts
Get BotK when you feel like people are going stack health. Sitting on Cutlass makes sense - you dont need it midgame before people have like 3k- health methinks. Cutlass is still good with its active, and couldnt you just build ie right after (ignoring BT)? Dont build your champ around its passive, its supplementary. Trinity Force on more than Ez and Corki has always been iffy to me. Ive seen vaynes make it work in the super lategame (Tumble TF procs op), but earlier than that Im not sure, its always been considered mediocre earlier on her. Zephyr sounds really good, but Im not sure you should be avoiding crit midgame (except if they are shitting out cc). Getting it as boots replacements makes sense endgame makes sense. Just my opinion though. | ||
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Purge
Canada372 Posts
On February 15 2013 08:23 RagequitBM wrote: Oh wow. That's really interesting. I'll need to keep that in mind when I play. I learn so much from this sub forum, it's great. Yeah this is my first day getting into this forum and I learned so much @.@ Its the best LoL Forum around 100%. | ||
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
On February 15 2013 07:54 TheYango wrote: Ok, so now you're narrowing BotRK users to: 1) champions that aren't heavily based on AD-scaling ability damage (BT more effective here) 2) champions not looking for effectiveness at the 3+ item timing (IE/PD/BT/LW/etc. better here) 3) champions not looking for effectiveness at the single item timing (Triforce better here) 4) champions that don't efficiently use the Triforce proc Who exactly meets these criteria? I can't see that list being very long, even if it isn't a blank list. My argument would be that points 1 and 2 dont matter. The point here isnt to effectively scale into AD abilities or a 3 item timing. Instead I am simply looking for an effective 1-2 item timing that puts you at a power curve more similar to bruisers. Tri might work for that, its just the question would be how to use that 1.3k proc. BOTRK is easier to deal with since anyone who hits things can make use of that proc, without a change in playstyle. ATM I am just trying to think through how to utilize that proc on an AD carry. | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
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Dusty
United States3359 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On February 15 2013 08:28 Two_DoWn wrote: Instead I am simply looking for an effective 1-2 item timing that puts you at a power curve more similar to bruisers. Point 1 IS relevant because AD casters prefer BT to BotRK even at the 1 damage item timing. Your damage has to heavily favor autoattacks over spells to warrant BotRK. On February 15 2013 08:28 Two_DoWn wrote: Tri might work for that, its just the question would be how to use that 1.3k proc. BOTRK is easier to deal with since anyone who hits things can make use of that proc, without a change in playstyle. ATM I am just trying to think through how to utilize that proc on an AD carry. Again, I feel you are vastly understating how many ADs actually use the Triforce proc well. Off the top of my head, the only ones that might prefer BotRK to BT or Triforce for the particular item timing in question are Tristana and Twitch. | ||
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
On February 15 2013 08:48 TheYango wrote: Point 1 IS relevant because AD casters prefer BT to BotRK even at the 1 damage item timing. Your damage has to heavily favor autoattacks over spells to warrant BotRK. Again, I feel you are vastly understating how many ADs actually use the Triforce proc well. Off the top of my head, the only ones that might prefer BotRK to BT or Triforce for the particular item timing in question are Tristana and Twitch. My thought on the last point is just that from a basic theory using an ability as an ADC is typically bad. Cait's peacemaker or headshot are horrible to use in teamfights because they dont do as much damage as just hitting people. But then again, I am stuck in the 3 item critical mass of items theory, where that is certainly true. I havent seen a Cait rush triforce, so I would have to see if doing a peacemaker, using the proc and continuing to hit things is less effective than just hitting thing. Unlike say Ez or Corki where you are gonna be using those procs because your kit is based on it. I just dont know. | ||
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Parametric
Canada1261 Posts
A step away from ranged ADC, what are your thoughts on BotRK on Fiora or a Fiora build in general. I'm awful at theory crafting and I want to play fiora top really badly. My main problem is that I want to buy all the items all the time =( Edit: in 5 second hindsight, this should go in the champ thread, i've forgotten about the subsubforum thing my bad | ||
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