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On February 15 2013 07:16 Scip wrote:
How is flashing in worse than ghosting in
well I guess flash has longer cooldown, but still, it's not THAT much longer. And also like did people forget that Amumu's ultimate is instant? There is a massive difference between being instant and not. Imagine for a second Taric's stun without projectile. That's the difference between Amumu and Hec.
Because of the range difference. You can ghost ulti in from insane range. It is true that you can be too far from your team though.
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I would expect you would use BOTRK like the wriggles in s2: get it, throw some dorans blades, then throw as much aspeed as you can on the top until.
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If I had to chose I would still pick hecarim due to his w's insane lategame.
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I have the badge of shame. 100 games in the same league.
GG I sux.
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On February 15 2013 07:24 Sermokala wrote:
If I had to chose I would still pick hecarim due to his w's insane lategame.
Eeh, I'd almost always prefer a 50% AS reduction and slow to threaten their ADC, unless they had one who's already weaker late game.
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United States47024 Posts
On February 15 2013 07:22 Two_DoWn wrote:
I would expect you would use BOTRK like the wriggles in s2: get it, throw some dorans blades, then throw as much aspeed as you can on the top until.
The thing is, if you're looking at BotRK, you're not comparing it with BT/IE/PD/etc. because those are aimed at effectiveness at 2-3 item DPS, working synergistically with other items.
The proper comparison for BotRK is with an item like Triforce that operates well as a single damage item. And Triforce is pretty damn nice this patch.
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Man Riot's replay system is really solid.
I like the way they do things now: calling it an 'Alpha' when essentially this is barely a Beta test.
It's completely functional.
Eventually they'll release it on live for a stress test and call it Beta or something but yeah...it's pretty great.
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well their alpha has to be at least as good as lolreplay so its not surprising
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Do you have to be logged in to view them or can you launch a replay right from the folder?
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On February 15 2013 07:24 Chrispy wrote:
I have the badge of shame. 100 games in the same league.
GG I sux.
Why you no carry me Q_Q
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On February 15 2013 07:29 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2013 07:22 Two_DoWn wrote:
I would expect you would use BOTRK like the wriggles in s2: get it, throw some dorans blades, then throw as much aspeed as you can on the top until. The thing is, if you're looking at BotRK, you're not comparing it with BT/IE/PD/etc. because those are aimed at effectiveness at 2-3 item DPS, working synergistically with other items. The proper comparison for BotRK is with an item like Triforce that operates well as a single damage item. And Triforce is pretty damn nice this patch.
How does BOTRK not synergize with attack speed?
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On February 15 2013 07:32 WaveofShadow wrote:
Man Riot's replay system is really solid.
I like the way they do things now: calling it an 'Alpha' when essentially this is barely a Beta test.
It's completely functional.
Eventually they'll release it on live for a stress test and call it Beta or something but yeah...it's pretty great.
The new ping system is pretty good too. There's a lot of stuff lacking but its all functionality they plan on adding. The best is now a retreat ping can be used to mean "mia" or to mean "gtfo"
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United States47024 Posts
It does, but there aren't that many smooth plain-Attack-Speed sources to get, so at most you more or less reach maximal effectiveness at 2 damage items. By the 3rd damage item, the inefficiencies of not having crit start to get to you.
It's pretty clear that Riot wanted BotRK to go hand-in-hand with Hurricane imo (both synergize with not having crit, BotRK provides an on-hit proc to be used with Hurricane, BotRK desperately requires attack speed, while Hurricane ONLY gives Attack Speed), but I'm still not convinced the pair is that strong. Zephyr is a different story because Zephyr is a fantastic item, though. Still have to look at the comparative effectiveness with Triforce, though (BotRK does more damage with Zephyr for sure, but Phage proc + double % MS + Tenacity makes you a kiting god).
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On February 15 2013 07:42 TheYango wrote:
It does, but there aren't that many smooth plain-Attack-Speed sources to get, so at most you more or less reach maximal effectiveness at 2 damage items. By the 3rd damage item, the inefficiencies of not having crit start to get to you.
The non-crit build brings a lot more utility though. BotRK is a lot of healing and a self peel. If you go Hurricane, you're a pretty efficient AoE damage dealer. If you go Zephyr, you're really goddamned fast and have Tenacity to boot. Not that it makes up for the single target damage loss from not building AD + Crit, but it's something to take into consideration.
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United States47024 Posts
See, again, you have to compare with Triforce. I'm not convinced that Zephyr+BotRK is better than Zephyr+Triforce, since Triforce brings the Phage proc, and a second % MS effect. Zephyr+Triforce also transitions more smoothly into lategame damage items, because it doesn't totally forgo crit, and has a Crit+Damage item (IE) that gives exactly what it wants out of a 3rd damage item for lategame.
It's really the same discussion as S2 with Bloodrazor vs. Triforce as a single damage item, and Triforce always won. Now Triforce got nerfed, but unlike Bloodrazor, BotRK has a glaring weakness where it has signficantly weaker effectiveness as a single damage item because it doesn't provide it's own attack speed, and so has to wait till 2nd damage item to provide real effectiveness. I'm not convinced that the slightly stronger 2nd damage item effectiveness makes it a better item overall.
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Problem with Triforce is what to do with the sheen proc. I could see Ez and Corki liking that route, but i dont want to spend 1.3k on a proc Im not using if the goal of my build is efficiency.
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On February 15 2013 07:32 WaveofShadow wrote:
Man Riot's replay system is really solid.
I like the way they do things now: calling it an 'Alpha' when essentially this is barely a Beta test.
It's completely functional.
Eventually they'll release it on live for a stress test and call it Beta or something but yeah...it's pretty great.
Have you tested it on PBE? Can you give me a rundown? (I've never been on PBE so I have no idea if it's even out yet or if you're just speculating off the reddit thread)
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United States47024 Posts
On February 15 2013 07:50 Two_DoWn wrote:
Problem with Triforce is what to do with the sheen proc. I could see Ez and Corki liking that route, but i dont want to spend 1.3k on a proc Im not using if the goal of my build is efficiency.
Ok, so now you're narrowing BotRK users to:
1) champions that aren't heavily based on AD-scaling ability damage (BT more effective here)
2) champions not looking for effectiveness at the 3+ item timing (IE/PD/BT/LW/etc. better here)
3) champions not looking for effectiveness at the single item timing (Triforce better here)
4) champions that don't efficiently use the Triforce proc
Who exactly meets these criteria? I can't see that list being very long, even if it isn't a blank list.
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On February 15 2013 07:47 TheYango wrote:
See, again, you have to compare with Triforce. I'm not convinced that Zephyr+BotRK is better than Zephyr+Triforce, since Triforce brings the Phage proc, and a second % MS effect. Zephyr+Triforce also transitions more smoothly into lategame damage items, because it doesn't totally forgo crit, and has a Crit+Damage item (IE) that gives exactly what it wants out of a 3rd damage item for lategame.
It's really the same discussion as S2 with Bloodrazor vs. Triforce as a single damage item, and Triforce always won. Now Triforce got nerfed, but unlike Bloodrazor, BotRK has a glaring weakness where it has signficantly weaker effectiveness as a single damage item because it doesn't provide it's own attack speed, and so has to wait till 2nd damage item to provide real effectiveness. I'm not convinced that the slightly stronger 2nd damage item effectiveness makes it a better item overall.
Eeeh, I feel that with Triforce you're spending a lot on stats that you don't really want. AP, Mana, Health, and a Sheen proc, which only a couple ADs can even really utilize. On top of that, a point and click active is more reliable as a slow than Phage proc, Zephyr gives more MS, more AS, and CDR for your escapes.
There are no wasted stats on BotRK + Zephyr imo, while there are plenty with TF, and if you have to sit on a Sheen for a long time on, say, Ashe, that's really wasted time where it's not doing anything.
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On February 15 2013 07:54 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2013 07:47 TheYango wrote:
See, again, you have to compare with Triforce. I'm not convinced that Zephyr+BotRK is better than Zephyr+Triforce, since Triforce brings the Phage proc, and a second % MS effect. Zephyr+Triforce also transitions more smoothly into lategame damage items, because it doesn't totally forgo crit, and has a Crit+Damage item (IE) that gives exactly what it wants out of a 3rd damage item for lategame.
It's really the same discussion as S2 with Bloodrazor vs. Triforce as a single damage item, and Triforce always won. Now Triforce got nerfed, but unlike Bloodrazor, BotRK has a glaring weakness where it has signficantly weaker effectiveness as a single damage item because it doesn't provide it's own attack speed, and so has to wait till 2nd damage item to provide real effectiveness. I'm not convinced that the slightly stronger 2nd damage item effectiveness makes it a better item overall. Eeeh, I feel that with Triforce you're spending a lot on stats that you don't really want. AP, Mana, Health, and a Sheen proc, which only a couple ADs can even really utilize. On top of that, a point and click active is more reliable as a slow than Phage proc, Zephyr gives more MS, more AS, and CDR for your escapes. There are no wasted stats on BotRK + Zephyr imo, while there are plenty with TF, and if you have to sit on a Sheen for a long time on, say, Ashe, that's really wasted time where it's not doing anything.
You never have to sit on Sheen on anyone after most recent patch. You're gonna build Zeal+Phage first on every ADC.
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EPT
