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On January 30 2013 06:03 onlywonderboy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2013 05:42 sob3k wrote:On January 30 2013 05:38 Keniji wrote:
That taric build from the sup from GG (not edward) is ridiculous.
MPen reds, blues and quints, AP/lvl yellow. 20/10/0 masteries.
Sorc shoes first item. He should try support elise..... I feel like this next patch is going to hurt support Elise a lot. The mana cost on her Q is getting jacked up by quite a bit so the harass is going to be neutered.
I feel like support elise can afford a mana regen item more easily, actually. Philo or just FaeCharm goes a long way when you're ONLY using abilities to harass. Top lane 1v1 it's a little more feasible to "soak it til she's oom" (like how many top laners deal with pantheon.)
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draven and jarvan would be really good for a pushing bot lane. Draven can axe a bunch of minions fake out poking (and toss an axe at the enemy combo sometimes to keep them honest) and then clear the lane with a good q of jarvan and a w of draven.
Its roughly the same reason why cait is so good at pushing with her range and spells allow her to.
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Those damn changes to the matchmaking dropped the level of my games so much that I don't even have the motivation to play more than 2-3 in a row anymore. It's depressing because even though decent games still happen, it's just a throwfest or that coin toss of "who'll get the super bad guy who'll turn the game into a 4v5" (had an Atma's -> Mallet -> Atma's GP last game, did not damage, didn't tank their Vayne or Teemo AP for jack shit either, and kept getting caught). It's not even that I'm chaining losses. It's that they aren't even fun. You look at your team, you sigh and you get jaded because you won't be able to do much, unless you get into that "I'm 300 Elo below my true level, time to hard carries these noobs" mentality. And then you're forbidden to relax or have fun.
And I haven't even tried ranked since the change was implemented.
AND NOW A FUCKING 3-MEN PREMADE THAT'S COORDINATED AND STUFF VERSUS 5 SOLOS. FUCKING MATCHMAKING. In exchange I get a Riven losing his tower at the 4th minute, and a Jungle WW who doesn't get a single point in E before 6, losing him a kill.
Just get us rid of whatever garbage you cooked, Riot. It's not making things "better" at all.
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United States23745 Posts
On January 30 2013 06:17 sylverfyre wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2013 06:03 onlywonderboy wrote:On January 30 2013 05:42 sob3k wrote:On January 30 2013 05:38 Keniji wrote:
That taric build from the sup from GG (not edward) is ridiculous.
MPen reds, blues and quints, AP/lvl yellow. 20/10/0 masteries.
Sorc shoes first item. He should try support elise..... I feel like this next patch is going to hurt support Elise a lot. The mana cost on her Q is getting jacked up by quite a bit so the harass is going to be neutered. I feel like support elise can afford a mana regen item more easily, actually. Philo or just FaeCharm goes a long way when you're ONLY using abilities to harass. Top lane 1v1 it's a little more feasible to "soak it til she's oom" (like how many top laners deal with pantheon.)
Fair enough, guess I'm overestimating the effect of the nerf. I just feel like 100 mana per Q is going is a lot (assuming you max Q), even with regen. I guess we shall see.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
Guys, from reading Xin thread which is a total mess, I think we should revisit our terminology. Most importantly, the term "carry" and "support" just doesn't make sense and no one really agrees about what it means. So what I think we should do is describe roles by the amount of damage, tankiness and the form of their damage.
So we could have Tanks, little damage a lot of survivability etc.
Then we would have bruisers, those would be AP bruisers and AD bruisers, like Irelia, Vladamir, tanky Elise etc.
Then we would have AP casters and AD casters, ranged or melee. So Anivia would be an AP ranged caster, Talon would be an AD melee caster, also known as AD assasin.
Then we would have Ranged AD, notice me not using the term "AD carry" because it's too ambiguous. Ranged AD perfectly desribes what the champ is doing, i. e. autoattacking from range, doing physical damage.
Support is the name of the 2nd role played in bottom lane, it can NOT be used to describe builds, like "support Xin with locket", again, there are a million things and judgments you could make by the "support" term. "Aura Xin" or just "Locket Xin" without any ambiguous terms added in would work just fine in the example given here.
Y/N?
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On January 30 2013 06:25 onlywonderboy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2013 06:17 sylverfyre wrote:On January 30 2013 06:03 onlywonderboy wrote:On January 30 2013 05:42 sob3k wrote:On January 30 2013 05:38 Keniji wrote:
That taric build from the sup from GG (not edward) is ridiculous.
MPen reds, blues and quints, AP/lvl yellow. 20/10/0 masteries.
Sorc shoes first item. He should try support elise..... I feel like this next patch is going to hurt support Elise a lot. The mana cost on her Q is getting jacked up by quite a bit so the harass is going to be neutered. I feel like support elise can afford a mana regen item more easily, actually. Philo or just FaeCharm goes a long way when you're ONLY using abilities to harass. Top lane 1v1 it's a little more feasible to "soak it til she's oom" (like how many top laners deal with pantheon.) Fair enough, guess I'm overestimating the effect of the nerf. I just feel like 100 mana per Q is going is a lot (assuming you max Q), even with regen. I guess we shall see.
She won't be the only support with expensive harass, at least. It'll make a mana item more important (for all positions) and make you work to make sure you're doing meaningful harass. (I'm thinking it'll be like pantheon, where you harass harder at the odd levels where you just leveled up Q.)
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Holy shit I just played a game as Maokai where I had to carry my team so hard, I'm actually physically exhausted from that one match alone lol. Just started playing him again a bit yesterday, the new jungle changes are very friendly for him it seems, going to re add him to my regulars now.
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I've noticed that junglers like Mao (limited aoe + poor autos) really suffer from the BigCreep health changes to the jungle, even with Spirit Stone I feel slow. Amumu too, but it feels less bad (i guess passive+W makes up for some of it on mumu?)
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On January 30 2013 06:31 sylverfyre wrote:
I've noticed that junglers like Mao (limited aoe + poor autos) really suffer from the BigCreep health changes to the jungle, even with Spirit Stone I feel slow. Amumu too, but it feels less bad (i guess passive+W makes up for some of it on mumu?)
Mao is SOOOO much better now imo. You take like no damage as you kill the small minions very quickly. Only played 3 games since the newest changes however. Just sometimes you have to leave the big creep to go do other shit, but that was Mao before anyways.
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United States15536 Posts
I really need to learn how to play ADCs other than Graves in Ranked. T_T
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On January 30 2013 06:25 Scip wrote:
Guys, from reading Xin thread which is a total mess, I think we should revisit our terminology. Most importantly, the term "carry" and "support" just doesn't make sense and no one really agrees about what it means. So what I think we should do is describe roles by the amount of damage, tankiness and the form of their damage.
So we could have Tanks, little damage a lot of survivability etc.
Then we would have bruisers, those would be AP bruisers and AD bruisers, like Irelia, Vladamir, tanky Elise etc.
Then we would have AP casters and AD casters, ranged or melee. So Anivia would be an AP ranged caster, Talon would be an AD melee caster, also known as AD assasin.
Then we would have Ranged AD, notice me not using the term "AD carry" because it's too ambiguous. Ranged AD perfectly desribes what the champ is doing, i. e. autoattacking from range, doing physical damage.
Support is the name of the 2nd role played in bottom lane, it can NOT be used to describe builds, like "support Xin with locket", again, there are a million things and judgments you could make by the "support" term. "Aura Xin" or just "Locket Xin" without any ambiguous terms added in would work just fine in the example given here.
Y/N?
The problem is those bleed over way too much. You can be tanky and still dish out a lot of damage and do so with different types of damage as well.
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On January 30 2013 06:25 Scip wrote:
Guys, from reading Xin thread which is a total mess, I think we should revisit our terminology. Most importantly, the term "carry" and "support" just doesn't make sense and no one really agrees about what it means. So what I think we should do is describe roles by the amount of damage, tankiness and the form of their damage.
So we could have Tanks, little damage a lot of survivability etc.
Then we would have bruisers, those would be AP bruisers and AD bruisers, like Irelia, Vladamir, tanky Elise etc.
Then we would have AP casters and AD casters, ranged or melee. So Anivia would be an AP ranged caster, Talon would be an AD melee caster, also known as AD assasin.
Then we would have Ranged AD, notice me not using the term "AD carry" because it's too ambiguous. Ranged AD perfectly desribes what the champ is doing, i. e. autoattacking from range, doing physical damage.
Support is the name of the 2nd role played in bottom lane, it can NOT be used to describe builds, like "support Xin with locket", again, there are a million things and judgments you could make by the "support" term. "Aura Xin" or just "Locket Xin" without any ambiguous terms added in would work just fine in the example given here.
Y/N?
The terminology is fine people just use it in the wrong way. Melle adc's aren't viable so you should have you say melle adc instead of just adc. support and carry makes sense because everyone on the team is a carry other then the support. Its a farm distribution thing thats simple to understand. Things bleed in and out but thats up to the person useing the terminology to use their words better and not the words fault themselves.
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On January 30 2013 06:39 RuskiPanda wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2013 06:25 Scip wrote:
Guys, from reading Xin thread which is a total mess, I think we should revisit our terminology. Most importantly, the term "carry" and "support" just doesn't make sense and no one really agrees about what it means. So what I think we should do is describe roles by the amount of damage, tankiness and the form of their damage.
So we could have Tanks, little damage a lot of survivability etc.
Then we would have bruisers, those would be AP bruisers and AD bruisers, like Irelia, Vladamir, tanky Elise etc.
Then we would have AP casters and AD casters, ranged or melee. So Anivia would be an AP ranged caster, Talon would be an AD melee caster, also known as AD assasin.
Then we would have Ranged AD, notice me not using the term "AD carry" because it's too ambiguous. Ranged AD perfectly desribes what the champ is doing, i. e. autoattacking from range, doing physical damage.
Support is the name of the 2nd role played in bottom lane, it can NOT be used to describe builds, like "support Xin with locket", again, there are a million things and judgments you could make by the "support" term. "Aura Xin" or just "Locket Xin" without any ambiguous terms added in would work just fine in the example given here.
Y/N? The problem is those bleed over way too much. You can be tanky and still dish out a lot of damage and do so with different types of damage as well.
Honestly, if you are tanky but don't do damage or have massive CC you are still no threat, so there are really isn't a tank class in the game at all. There are Fat CC bots like Naut and Maokai, and fat damager like Olaf or Mundo.
Its not like there is a character in the game with 3 taunts + ult (or maybe they could make a 4 taunt Udyr-Style champ!). That guy could actually tank, because it would work, kinda.
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On January 30 2013 06:42 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2013 06:25 Scip wrote:
Guys, from reading Xin thread which is a total mess, I think we should revisit our terminology. Most importantly, the term "carry" and "support" just doesn't make sense and no one really agrees about what it means. So what I think we should do is describe roles by the amount of damage, tankiness and the form of their damage.
So we could have Tanks, little damage a lot of survivability etc.
Then we would have bruisers, those would be AP bruisers and AD bruisers, like Irelia, Vladamir, tanky Elise etc.
Then we would have AP casters and AD casters, ranged or melee. So Anivia would be an AP ranged caster, Talon would be an AD melee caster, also known as AD assasin.
Then we would have Ranged AD, notice me not using the term "AD carry" because it's too ambiguous. Ranged AD perfectly desribes what the champ is doing, i. e. autoattacking from range, doing physical damage.
Support is the name of the 2nd role played in bottom lane, it can NOT be used to describe builds, like "support Xin with locket", again, there are a million things and judgments you could make by the "support" term. "Aura Xin" or just "Locket Xin" without any ambiguous terms added in would work just fine in the example given here.
Y/N? The terminology is fine people just use it in the wrong way. Melle adc's aren't viable so you should have you say melle adc instead of just adc. support and carry makes sense because everyone on the team is a carry other then the support. Its a farm distribution thing thats simple to understand. Things bleed in and out but thats up to the person useing the terminology to use their words better and not the words fault themselves.
Melee carries do exist. Viability is unrelated to the definition of the term.
AD Carry - auto attack based dps, melee or ranged. Especially for melee they have a kit that enhances autoattack damage.
AD caster - Spell/skill based dps(just because you can auto attack to do damage doesn't change the fact that most of damage comes from spells/skills).
Melee's especially like xin really depend on what item build you choose whether to define him as a bruiser or a carry.
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Everyone needs to stop using the word carry for any purpose except playing well and having a large impact on the game.
The only difference between xin with a lot of tank items and xin with a lot of damage items is that one is tankier and one does more damage. It doesn't greatly change how you play the champion either.
Champs like trynd and fiora are just bruisers who use invulnerability frames so they can get away with more damage.
Bruisers (melee damage based)
Tanks (melee cc based)
Assassins (melee burst based)
Ranged AD
AP's
Supports (bot lane low cs'er)
are all we really should be using.
Carries and especially melee carries is a term people are trying to apply from dota when it the same concept doesn't work in league. As far as I know they also built defensive items but it was just the nature of the game that supports and aps damage had absolutely no scaling and their long CC was hard countered by BKB so they could barely do anything.
Even a really fed yi or something who for some reason went AD and managed to kill lots of people is just something a rare version of an assassin like akali or khazix or katarina getting lots of resets and kills and the only different is yi auto attacks more because thats what his spells and passive boost up.
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Now I saw in my forum that, just as they had ended one topic, they drew near to a very miry slough that was in the midst of the thread; and they being heedless, did fall suddenly into the bog. The name of the slough was "Semantics." Here, therefore, they wallowed for a time, being grievously bedaubed with the nouns; and SLAYER91, because of the post count that was on his account, began to sink in the mire.
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An interesting point you bring up Teut.
Perhaps the LoL version of the Melee carry IS an assassin. I never quite thought about it like that, but it does make sense in terms of how they play the late game.
Also: no one really cares about terminology. So long as we understand each other it really doesnt matter.
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United States47024 Posts
On January 30 2013 07:19 Two_DoWn wrote:
Perhaps the LoL version of the Melee carry IS an assassin. I never quite thought about it like that, but it does make sense in terms of how they play the late game.
CK, Bounty Hunter, and Weaver are all carries that have gameplay analogous to LoL bruisers/anti-carries.
The DotA meaning of the term carry is only inappropriate if your only usage of it is referring to lategame hard carries. But "carry" typically loosely only really refers to high farm-priority heroes with lategame damage-dealing ability in some capacity. It applies to LoL just fine.
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well, some people dont understand and get upset when my xin gets a kill from a gank instead of THE CARRY
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EPT
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