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On January 25 2013 08:33 Zaphod Beeblebrox wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2013 08:20 Alaric wrote:On January 25 2013 08:15 remedium wrote:On January 25 2013 06:19 Alaric wrote:7th rune page and 8th mastery page (oh, he got a name change it seems). He's using a "classic" AS/AD runepage, no idea why the 4 ArPen (I guess most jungle monsters have 4 armour, never bothered to check, I just know buffs have 10), and offensive masteries because his goal is usually to snowball the game early so he looks at being able to deal the most damage possible for early kills (at least that's my reasoning). He goes machete+5 -> boots -> brutalizer -> finish boots around then if he gets tabi -> pickaxe -> Lizard spirit -> finish boots around there if mercs. He usually goes this way (from most fed to not fed): BT -> lizard spirit -> BC. His defensive item is always a warmogs (he'll complete BC after his first big item if he keeps getting fed/farmed). He went for randuin's/BC/mallet (can't remember his other 2 items, boots were homeguard tabi) the only game where I saw him behind. Skill order is WEQ R>E>Q>W Xj9 always goes damage by default. The math in this guide says R>Q>E>W. Is it wrong? I started going QWE R>Q>E>W after reading it, and I like it a lot more. The cooldown on the Q at higher levels gives you so much more utility, it's outrageous. I don't jungle her though. Seuss and I think that R>Q>W>E is better (the math says you can clear as fast with Q max and E max but the latter takes one more E cast per camp, which is more mana than Q max despite its mana cost increasing when leveled) because you get more mobility (both in the jungle and during ganks) and maxing W earlier results in a steep dps increase, Smash and Xj9 prefer the skill order I mentioned. Smash said that he feels Q first eats too much mana (he doesn't Q into the camps at all) and I haven't bothered trying to ask Xj9 since his stream chat spams way too much now that he's got viewers. Wait what... No Q into camps? Thats half the skill of jungling Vi - Lining up your Q from whatever angle you start the camp so you hit everything and is in position to hit the big monster while having E hit the small ones. Its really hard for buff camps from some angles, and purple side golems are annoying too. You are either really stupid or counter jungling if you don't use Q. The cooldown is short, and the damage boost makes you instaclear most camps if you have good items (even buff camps if you use smite).
Calm down my froody friend.
First, it's purportedly Smash who doesn't Q into camps, not Alaric. Second, either way there's no need to be aggressive and insult him about it. Third, if I recall correctly Smash prefers maxing E first, in which case Q could be considered wasteful.
So simmer down. Here, have a pangalactic gargleblaster.
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United States37500 Posts
On January 25 2013 08:37 Roffles wrote:
Bly, you just described why NA sucks.
If the farm system sucks, you ain't gonna be bringing new talent into the big leagues. That's why NA recycles used trash over and over instead of developing new players and new teams. Some "top" tier NA teams refuse to scrim each other because of who knows what, and they're too busy fucking around in trolo q instead of actually practicing. It's as if people don't care.
Azubu Frost needed a top laner, so they went and got some guy no one had heard of. After months of training, he turned out to be a beast. Caomei was a pile of shit at S2 championships for WE, and by the time IPL5 came around, he was a monster. But in the NA scene you have a bunch of people tossing around used goods like Polaroid instant cameras as if they're still good now.
No player development, Americans are fuckin lazy, and too much satisfaction from streaming that cuts into any desire to actually get good at the game and win something. Perennial losers, and until something changes in terms of how NA approaches the scene, they'll always be losers.
QFT
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United States47024 Posts
I said this before, but its just as much the organizations' fault as the players.
Organizations on NA don't commit to finding new talent. By that I mean they don't go out of their way to *build* new teams. They sign teams wholesale--5 guys that were ALREADY playing together when the team came knocking on their door. They don't have people scouting/hand-picking talent out of solo queue the way Korean/Chinese orgas do.
There IS good talent on NA, but with the way NA works, there's a bunch of guys that will never get discovered in solo queue, and another bunch of guys that are actually pretty good, but also attached at the hip to trash players, so as a whole they'll never get noticed because there's nothing that's going to separate them from those trash players.
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Smash plays mainly top and is used to maxing E first on Vi there, where it makes more sense (Qing into your own camps shouldn't be a safety loss, while top Vi uses E a lot to harass the opponent through last hitting and treats Q as an escape move—unless you're in the bush you also tell your opponent you're going to engage if you try to charge it, so you don't always have the leisure to wait for the max damage, losing part of the appeal of maxing it first).
I haven't seen him jungle Vi often (maybe twice) and he doesn't have the same playstyle as me so I can't speak about the way he manages his mana (I do tend to run pretty low a lot of the time because I often fail at long-term planning so unless I already have a gank in mind I don't save a lot of mana).
I haven't checked either how good double E is at clearing a camp (Q charging in is quicker, but maybe not enough to justify spending the additional 50/60 mana). It's not like it's slow either, maxQ chargedQ->auto->E is instant clearing for wraiths and short of 2-3 autos on Wolves so "slower" doesn't tell much about how slow it actually is. Though a big part of Qing in is to line-up the monsters.
What will I be at 6k posts? Apart from a spammer, I mean. Valkyrie?
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
Teams and organizations also just give up on players really fast. "Oh, we'll try this team out for 1 month" --> "Oh, we did okay, but we're not number one yet, so we'll give up trying" or "Hey, this guy's pretty good. Let's try him out" --> "This guy fed a couple of games, he must be trash"
Double's scouting of support players essentially epitomizes the mindset of NA as a whole: "Oh, this guy made one mistake. He's trash". One mistake = Trash. Good thinking Double.
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On January 25 2013 08:37 Roffles wrote:
Bly, you just described why NA sucks.
If the farm system sucks, you ain't gonna be bringing new talent into the big leagues. That's why NA recycles used trash over and over instead of developing new players and new teams. Some "top" tier NA teams refuse to scrim each other because of who knows what, and they're too busy fucking around in trolo q instead of actually practicing. It's as if people don't care.
Azubu Frost needed a top laner, so they went and got some guy no one had heard of. After months of training, he turned out to be a beast. Caomei was a pile of shit at S2 championships for WE, and by the time IPL5 came around, he was a monster. But in the NA scene you have a bunch of people tossing around used goods like Polaroid instant cameras as if they're still good now.
No player development, Americans are fuckin lazy, and too much satisfaction from streaming that cuts into any desire to actually get good at the game and win something. Perennial losers, and until something changes in terms of how NA approaches the scene, they'll always be losers.
2 much monies in streaming. losing tournies is worth for na teams 
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On January 25 2013 08:42 TheYango wrote:
I said this before, but its just as much the organizations' fault as the players.
Organizations on NA don't commit to finding new talent. By that I mean they don't go out of their way to *build* new teams. They sign teams wholesale--5 guys that were ALREADY playing together when the team came knocking on their door. They don't have people scouting/hand-picking talent out of solo queue the way Korean/Chinese orgas do.
There IS good talent on NA, but with the way NA works, there's a bunch of guys that will never get discovered in solo queue, and another bunch of guys that are actually pretty good, but also attached at the hip to trash players, so as a whole they'll never get noticed because there's nothing that's going to separate them from those trash players.
This is only generally true, I think. If there were a monster who was better than everyone and played soloque, I'm sure people would notice him and stuff. I'm not saying it's not wrong the way it is in NA right now, but it's not impossible to get noticed.
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On January 25 2013 07:15 zulu_nation8 wrote:
I really have problems understanding what most of the NA managers do exactly? I've repeatedly contacted many who were looking for players or scrims and have either been ignored or treated like shit. The orb agent guy who got his team a sponsor that scammed them and have posted here before literally did not return any messages for a week straight. The manager for GGU/TD looked for scrims then rejected my offer citing that my team is too "low elo" and he'd rather go play with their 1600 ranked 5s team. There is a scrim group that I got removed from the second day because apparently my brand new team lost a scrim too fast and did not have consistent lineup, the owner of the group is the manager for One Trick Ponies who got dumped on in LCS.
Teams have the right to reject scrim offers, but to reject by citing "elo" and in a very rude manner is downright disrespectful especially considering most of these managers like, don't do anything. The only good experiences I've had have been dealing with the players themselves and guitar who is actually very professional.
I find it hilarious but also appalling that the competitive scene for NA is so xenophobic. NA is the worst region, the top teams have not won any international competitions in forever, the lower tier teams all have literally 0 accomplishments unless you count qualifying through LCS as something worthy within the international scene. I wouldn't be as bothered if teams were ran by players who are actually involved, but I have never heard of any of these managers and it really seems like they are mostly a bunch of high schoolers who wanna put shit on their resume and jerk off high elo players.
Similarlym I'm also constantly surprised at the egos of players who have competitive experience but are looking for teams. Yes I understand taking a scrim off of a team like curse is an astronomical accomplishment considering how despicable the level of competition in the NA scene is but to use that as a sort of bargaining chip or proof of talent is downright sad. Nonetheless everyone seems to love sticking with their own incest pool of washed up players with a small time twitter following, because apparently "name" is a commodity in NA LoL which tbh, is a fucking joke.
Most teams only have managers because they are qt asian girls. Most do try and setup scrims, but the players are so young that schedules appear really chaotic. So its a headache trying to get a consistent amount going. So with the time they can get to work, they want the best. This should improve greatly when the top 8 move in with their teams. Also what else are they supposed to judge you on for wanting to scrim them if not elo? Your team getting removed for having an inconsistent roster also makes sense. It sounds like they wanted to build a foundation for a good scrim environment and wanted players that could commit. Not necessarily have to wait around while they look for a sub.
The rest, uhh. You seem to have a lot of hate for this part of LoL. Yet want so badly to be apart of it =/
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I still want to know why NA and EU teams don't scrim eachother. Is the delay that much worse in LoL compared to dota?
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United States47024 Posts
On January 25 2013 08:46 Roffles wrote:
Teams and organizations also just give up on players really fast. "Oh, we'll try this team out for 1 month" --> "Oh, we did okay, but we're not number one yet, so we'll give up" or "Hey, this guy's pretty good. Let's try him out" --> "This guy fed a couple of games, he must be trash"
Double's scouting of support players essentially epitomizes the mindset of NA as a whole: "Oh, this guy made one mistake. He's trash". One mistake = Trash. Good thinking Double.
Yeah that's also true.
Honestly speaking, LoL isn't at the point where a player has to be super talented to make it. Maybe that will be true eventually, but it's not there yet. A player with the right mindset and work ethic can be successful competitively in the current state of LoL without being super-talented. For example, Caomei's inherent talent/skills aren't that high, but he has a fantastic work ethic and mindset and that brought him to where he is today.
I think it was Chauster that said that said something like "if you're trash at the game, you're always going to be trash", and that really rubbed me the wrong way, because the level of competition right now isn't so high that you have to be inherently talented to get to the top.
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On January 25 2013 08:41 NeoIllusions wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2013 08:37 Roffles wrote:
Bly, you just described why NA sucks.
If the farm system sucks, you ain't gonna be bringing new talent into the big leagues. That's why NA recycles used trash over and over instead of developing new players and new teams. Some "top" tier NA teams refuse to scrim each other because of who knows what, and they're too busy fucking around in trolo q instead of actually practicing. It's as if people don't care.
Azubu Frost needed a top laner, so they went and got some guy no one had heard of. After months of training, he turned out to be a beast. Caomei was a pile of shit at S2 championships for WE, and by the time IPL5 came around, he was a monster. But in the NA scene you have a bunch of people tossing around used goods like Polaroid instant cameras as if they're still good now.
No player development, Americans are fuckin lazy, and too much satisfaction from streaming that cuts into any desire to actually get good at the game and win something. Perennial losers, and until something changes in terms of how NA approaches the scene, they'll always be losers. QFT
This is SC2 relevant as well. Probably E-Sports relevant actually.
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United States47024 Posts
On January 25 2013 08:48 OutlaW- wrote:
This is only generally true, I think. If there were a monster who was better than everyone and played soloque, I'm sure people would notice him and stuff. I'm not saying it's not wrong the way it is in NA right now, but it's not impossible to get noticed.
The problem is that this is inherently results-oriented. People are scouting for results, and not potential. If you only scout for results, you're going to get a lot of false positives on players that have good talent but awful mindset/work ethic, you're going to find less players overall that meet your standards, and you're going to have a poorer cost-performance ratio because it's harder to keep players that are known quantities.
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Chauster says a lot of things. Most of which aren't particularly true. Guess that's what happens when you have tons of raving fans telling you how you best knowledge in the world constantly.
It's always about long term vs short term. People want instant results and exposure instead of something that takes longer but lasts longer at the same time.
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It reminds me of the job market. Every job posting requires at least three years of experience. Where are people supposed to get three years of experience?
If I wasn't some old man with a full-time job and commitments, I'd be setting out to prove TheYango's point about work ethic and mindset.
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
On January 25 2013 08:56 Seuss wrote:
It reminds me of the job market. Every job posting requires at least three years of experience. Where are people supposed to get three years of experience?
If I wasn't some old man with a full-time job and commitments, I'd be setting out to prove TheYango's point about work ethic and mindset.
Fuck it. Baylife bro. Gotta go for it.
Better now than never.
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MRN drafting makes me laugh. Guess they just starting their journey.
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On January 25 2013 08:50 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2013 08:46 Roffles wrote:
Teams and organizations also just give up on players really fast. "Oh, we'll try this team out for 1 month" --> "Oh, we did okay, but we're not number one yet, so we'll give up" or "Hey, this guy's pretty good. Let's try him out" --> "This guy fed a couple of games, he must be trash"
Double's scouting of support players essentially epitomizes the mindset of NA as a whole: "Oh, this guy made one mistake. He's trash". One mistake = Trash. Good thinking Double. Yeah that's also true. Honestly speaking, LoL isn't at the point where a player has to be super talented to make it. Maybe that will be true eventually, but it's not there yet. A player with the right mindset and work ethic can be successful competitively in the current state of LoL without being super-talented. For example, Caomei's inherent talent/skills aren't that high, but he has a fantastic work ethic and mindset and that brought him to where he is today. I think it was Chauster that said that said something like "if you're trash at the game, you're always going to be trash", and that really rubbed me the wrong way, because the level of competition right now isn't so high that you have to be inherently talented to get to the top.
If by talent you mean ability to improve, sure. There is no inherent ''talent'' in league the way you would call a musical or artistic genius talented. It's all about how your brain is structured to play League. Mechanics is something anyone can improve, the rest is all in the brain and from personal experience and putting thought into it, I think that everyone can get really good at the game. Some people don't, but I think that they can, they just don't want to commit hard enough or are too arrogant/short sighted/not intelligent enough.
I really don't think talent has anything to do with this. It's all in the mind (conscious and subconscious).
If by talent you mean potential then yes, I agree, but I wanted to make the point that I think there is nothing else than mindset and work ethics separating the best from the good ( and the bad )
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United States47024 Posts
On January 25 2013 08:54 Numy wrote:
It's always about long term vs short term. People want instant results and exposure instead of something that takes longer but lasts longer at the same time.
I mean, it made sense 6 months to a year ago when being a strong team in NA felt like it meant more. At this point though, does anyone really care about high ELO NA team #32587281?
Either you can beat Koreans or you're nobody.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
On January 25 2013 08:46 Roffles wrote:
Teams and organizations also just give up on players really fast. "Oh, we'll try this team out for 1 month" --> "Oh, we did okay, but we're not number one yet, so we'll give up trying" or "Hey, this guy's pretty good. Let's try him out" --> "This guy fed a couple of games, he must be trash"
Double's scouting of support players essentially epitomizes the mindset of NA as a whole: "Oh, this guy made one mistake. He's trash". One mistake = Trash. Good thinking Double.
I think the constant swapping of players in foreign scene is more of a result of players having bad mindsets and so on, rather than the problem itself. Maybe it's not just that Doublelift can't see the potential in NA players, maybe it's that there is very very few NA players with any real potential.
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United States37500 Posts
On January 25 2013 08:58 Numy wrote:
MRN drafting makes me laugh. Guess they just starting their journey.
What do you criticize?
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EPT
