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On January 25 2013 07:21 IMoperator wrote:
Is it just me or does bot lane get tower dove almost every game now? I main adc and I get 3-4 man ganked and dove bot essentially every game and there's nothing we can do about it.
That's the price you pay for picking a role that offers 0 control early game. The best you can do is anticipate ganks, and then just back off before they come and minimize the dmg while playing for later game because otherwise you'll just lose if you try to play the dive off at tower. If the enemy ad carry doesn't die, but you die in a gank, he's always off better even if you trade your life for some1 elses. If you're going to lose tower, then just lose tower. It's better than dying, trying to hold it. If you're team's down early, give up control early, and play for later game, and hope to capitalize on enemy mistakes.
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when i play support im usually pretty solid at reading when the enemy tried a big dive on me and ward the bushes near my tower.
pretty easy to counter when you see it coming, playing lulu helps too.
also, regarding vi items, i played her 10 games today and i think damage is bettere than tank items, just get some base HP so you dont die in 3 seconds. She does SO MUCH DAMAGE with some AD items.
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On January 25 2013 07:25 IMoperator wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2013 07:23 Sermokala wrote:On January 25 2013 07:21 IMoperator wrote:
Is it just me or does bot lane get tower dove almost every game now? I main adc and I get 3-4 man ganked and dove bot essentially every game and there's nothing we can do about it. Get pissy with your support when he doesn't ward. If he still doesn't ward then ward yourself. The only way you can stop a tower dive from killing you is wards. If you see it coming all you can do is run to your second tower and wait for your mid and jungler to come. The supports are usually decent at warding, but when stuff like pantheon skyfalling, ganking from lane and them coming from our own jungle it's really hard to defend. It feels like I'm completely helpless even under tower as an adc early, even a tanky support + adc seems like they can towerdive now. Did something change that I'm not aware of? Because I don't remember it being like this in S2.
Don't let the creep wave get pushed to your tower. Makes it much harder for them to dive successfully and even if they do still go through with it you can usually take at least one with you.
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On January 25 2013 07:25 cLutZ wrote:
Also, no one knows really what a farmed jungler could do, because you cannot be a farmed jungler. There probably needs to be at least 1 more camp to make it viable.
What would happen if a "hard" camp(stronger than doubles, weaker than buffs, with corresponding xp/gold rewards) was added on like a 90s respawn timer. Try to make it much more beneficial for wriggles/single target junglers to take that camp, but not so much AoE jungler's.
On January 25 2013 07:34 ArchAngelSC wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2013 07:25 IMoperator wrote:On January 25 2013 07:23 Sermokala wrote:On January 25 2013 07:21 IMoperator wrote:
Is it just me or does bot lane get tower dove almost every game now? I main adc and I get 3-4 man ganked and dove bot essentially every game and there's nothing we can do about it. Get pissy with your support when he doesn't ward. If he still doesn't ward then ward yourself. The only way you can stop a tower dive from killing you is wards. If you see it coming all you can do is run to your second tower and wait for your mid and jungler to come. The supports are usually decent at warding, but when stuff like pantheon skyfalling, ganking from lane and them coming from our own jungle it's really hard to defend. It feels like I'm completely helpless even under tower as an adc early, even a tanky support + adc seems like they can towerdive now. Did something change that I'm not aware of? Because I don't remember it being like this in S2. Don't let the creep wave get pushed to your tower. Makes it much harder for them to dive successfully and even if they do still go through with it you can usually take at least one with you.
A lot of times this is not possible. You basically ward lane bush, and the tri by your tower to spot incoming dives. Back off if it's a 3+v2 unless you have backup on the way or know that they have CD's down(no ex, no ults etc), and even then it's risky if they execute the dive well.
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On January 25 2013 06:30 clickrush wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2013 06:15 cLutZ wrote:On January 25 2013 00:15 Argoth. wrote:
I would say the biggest problem for carry junglers in Riot's sense (farm jungle all day, carry late game) is idiotic lane players. When you don't gank, they lose the lane. This is especially problematic for toplane. Having this constant disadvantage during the laning phase and the inability to play defensively really sets jungler like Tryndamere back. But maybe this is only the case for my low lvl of play.... But the "farm all day" tactic, isn't viable in Arranged 5s play, or at least its not done. You see a Dr. Mundo (arguably the best farmer in the game), or Olaf who is behind the support in levels because he has spent so much time ganking, counterganking, and setting up dives. The only jungler who ever even arguably tries to do that is Shen, because of his ult, and then he transitions into a decently farmed character later because of the power of splitpushing (which gives you decent farm). the problem with carry junglers is not the laners and especially not ganking. if riot would reward ganking more then junglers would have possibly more farm. the problem is that there is simply not enough farm in a game for 4 champions. only AD carries regularly get fully built so it does not make sense to pick item dependand junglers. The only way you are gonna do that is when you let the jungler farm after the laneing phase but then you want the jungle start to make sense and you need a top or mid who does not need more than 1-2 core items to be viable. Supportive mids&tops come to mind like zilean, yorick etc.
The reason only AD carries regularly get fully built isn't because of some inevitable force of fate, but because of community inertia and the realities of Season 2. We're in Season 3 now and, as TheYango pointed out, if AD carries can't survive with only one defensive item the disparity between ranged AD carries and other carry options will shrink considerably.
Farm priorities keep getting more and more fluid. There's a fairly significant change that, barring needless intervention from riot, we'll see a large rise in other roles getting the #1 spot on farm priority.
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On January 25 2013 07:25 IMoperator wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2013 07:23 Sermokala wrote:On January 25 2013 07:21 IMoperator wrote:
Is it just me or does bot lane get tower dove almost every game now? I main adc and I get 3-4 man ganked and dove bot essentially every game and there's nothing we can do about it. Get pissy with your support when he doesn't ward. If he still doesn't ward then ward yourself. The only way you can stop a tower dive from killing you is wards. If you see it coming all you can do is run to your second tower and wait for your mid and jungler to come. The supports are usually decent at warding, but when stuff like pantheon skyfalling, ganking from lane and them coming from our own jungle it's really hard to defend. It feels like I'm completely helpless even under tower as an adc early, even a tanky support + adc seems like they can towerdive now. Did something change that I'm not aware of? Because I don't remember it being like this in S2.
Replay?
If the enemy team plays Ashe, Karthus, Pantheon, Nocturne, Naut and coordinate a 5 man gank on you, you're going to die ward or no ward. They'd probably kill you in your fountain. But that's a huge opportunity cost and hard to come by
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On January 25 2013 07:46 Amui wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2013 07:25 cLutZ wrote:
Also, no one knows really what a farmed jungler could do, because you cannot be a farmed jungler. There probably needs to be at least 1 more camp to make it viable. What would happen if a "hard" camp(stronger than doubles, weaker than buffs, with corresponding xp/gold rewards) was added on like a 90s respawn timer. Try to make it much more beneficial for wriggles/single target junglers to take that camp, but not so much AoE jungler's. Show nested quote +On January 25 2013 07:34 ArchAngelSC wrote:On January 25 2013 07:25 IMoperator wrote:On January 25 2013 07:23 Sermokala wrote:On January 25 2013 07:21 IMoperator wrote:
Is it just me or does bot lane get tower dove almost every game now? I main adc and I get 3-4 man ganked and dove bot essentially every game and there's nothing we can do about it. Get pissy with your support when he doesn't ward. If he still doesn't ward then ward yourself. The only way you can stop a tower dive from killing you is wards. If you see it coming all you can do is run to your second tower and wait for your mid and jungler to come. The supports are usually decent at warding, but when stuff like pantheon skyfalling, ganking from lane and them coming from our own jungle it's really hard to defend. It feels like I'm completely helpless even under tower as an adc early, even a tanky support + adc seems like they can towerdive now. Did something change that I'm not aware of? Because I don't remember it being like this in S2. Don't let the creep wave get pushed to your tower. Makes it much harder for them to dive successfully and even if they do still go through with it you can usually take at least one with you. A lot of times this is not possible. You basically ward lane bush, and the tri by your tower to spot incoming dives. Back off if it's a 3+v2 unless you have backup on the way or know that they have CD's down(no ex, no ults etc), and even then it's risky if they execute the dive well.
why would we need buffs to single target junglers, we JUST have seen jungle xin wreck two world elite teams in a row.
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On January 25 2013 07:46 Amui wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2013 07:25 cLutZ wrote:
Also, no one knows really what a farmed jungler could do, because you cannot be a farmed jungler. There probably needs to be at least 1 more camp to make it viable. What would happen if a "hard" camp(stronger than doubles, weaker than buffs, with corresponding xp/gold rewards) was added on like a 90s respawn timer. Try to make it much more beneficial for wriggles/single target junglers to take that camp, but not so much AoE jungler's.
I don't know, but i think the single target jungler hardon some people at riot have is weird and a little ignorant.
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On January 25 2013 07:15 zulu_nation8 wrote:
Similarlym I'm also constantly surprised at the egos of players who have competitive experience but are looking for teams. Yes I understand taking a scrim off of a team like curse is an astronomical accomplishment considering how despicable the level of competition in the NA scene is but to use that as a sort of bargaining chip or proof of talent is downright sad. Nonetheless everyone seems to love sticking with their own incest pool of washed up players with a small time twitter following, because apparently "name" is a commodity in NA LoL which tbh, is a fucking joke.
I can't say much from the outside about the inner workings but that seems to have always been the case in NA gaming scene. I know in Dota the top NA guys all look for cross region scrims vs EU teams and occasionally vs Asians. Then again NA dota has always fielded a mixture of international teams like Demon/Fear on MYM. Not really sure why League seems to have isolated themselves so much.
It just seems like NA has a very weird distribution of teams. There doesn't seem to be any real support in place for people to play when they aren't at the top. Everything is focused on the top and the scene itself would rather recycle then develop those systems it seems.
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On January 25 2013 07:56 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2013 07:46 Amui wrote:On January 25 2013 07:25 cLutZ wrote:
Also, no one knows really what a farmed jungler could do, because you cannot be a farmed jungler. There probably needs to be at least 1 more camp to make it viable. What would happen if a "hard" camp(stronger than doubles, weaker than buffs, with corresponding xp/gold rewards) was added on like a 90s respawn timer. Try to make it much more beneficial for wriggles/single target junglers to take that camp, but not so much AoE jungler's. I don't know, but i think the single target jungler hardon some people at riot have is weird and a little ignorant.
Actually rethinking that it'd be more beneficial to have it good for strong clearer. If you have multiple mobs with enough HP to negate nonspammy spells for killing them, its probably enough
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First Lulu game!
Damn, she probably sucks, I went in the middle of the fight everytime like I do with Taric or Leona, and I somehow died. D:
In a more serious tone, she felt squishier than Sona, but that was probably because I didn't have too much MR (still built chalice after sightstone) and they had a Ryze so he could focus on the nearest target (= me, often) without "wasting" valuable cooldowns. It was still fun to move in to attract attention, pop E+ult+locket, die in 3 seconds while my team gets to sit on them unopposed and read 700 more damage received than my max HP over that period.
I really felt useless without a lot of MS too, since she can't dive in the middle of things and her W/E have less range than, say, Sona. I wasn't a fan of the mobos when I saw them but after playing her I understand that you need to be pretty mobile to protect yourself while still being in the right place when needed, since speeding yourself with W is "wasting" a 16s cd cc spell.
Also zomgwtf at that Ashe+Sona lane with a Skarner jungle. I had the river, our jungle, the lane warded, but I forgot the purple tribrush and suddenly Skarner darts out of it and they catch us from more than a screen away, negating my W on Varus with Ashe's arrow, then stopping us with Sona's ult, killing Varus before the cc ends and I can ult him, then killing me immediatly after using Skarner's ult to prevent my flash. That was scary, to say the least.
On January 25 2013 07:33 LaNague wrote:
also, regarding vi items, i played her 10 games today and i think damage is bettere than tank items, just get some base HP so you dont die in 3 seconds. She does SO MUCH DAMAGE with some AD items.
Certainly, but I'm too scrubby/gank cheapstake to make plays off of it, and I like the raidboss option too, the one where they're "oh shit" because you just ult'd the backline and they won't kill you 1v3 before you team crushes the 4v2. :D
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On January 25 2013 07:15 zulu_nation8 wrote:
I really have problems understanding what most of the NA managers do exactly? I've repeatedly contacted many who were looking for players or scrims and have either been ignored or treated like shit. The orb agent guy who got his team a sponsor that scammed them and have posted here before literally did not return any messages for a week straight. The manager for GGU/TD looked for scrims then rejected my offer citing that my team is too "low elo" and he'd rather go play with their 1600 ranked 5s team. There is a scrim group that I got removed from the second day because apparently my brand new team lost a scrim too fast and did not have consistent lineup, the owner of the group is the manager for One Trick Ponies who got dumped on in LCS.
Teams have the right to reject scrim offers, but to reject by citing "elo" and in a very rude manner is downright disrespectful especially considering most of these managers like, don't do anything. The only good experiences I've had have been dealing with the players themselves and guitar who is actually very professional.
I find it hilarious but also appalling that the competitive scene for NA is so xenophobic. NA is the worst region, the top teams have not won any international competitions in forever, the lower tier teams all have literally 0 accomplishments unless you count qualifying through LCS as something worthy within the international scene. I wouldn't be as bothered if teams were ran by players who are actually involved, but I have never heard of any of these managers and it really seems like they are mostly a bunch of high schoolers who wanna put shit on their resume and jerk off high elo players.
Similarlym I'm also constantly surprised at the egos of players who have competitive experience but are looking for teams. Yes I understand taking a scrim off of a team like curse is an astronomical accomplishment considering how despicable the level of competition in the NA scene is but to use that as a sort of bargaining chip or proof of talent is downright sad. Nonetheless everyone seems to love sticking with their own incest pool of washed up players with a small time twitter following, because apparently "name" is a commodity in NA LoL which tbh, is a fucking joke.
hue
hue
HUE.
Let me tell you what having a manager meant when I played second-stringer tf2:
Pro:
- Ensures you a constant stream of mousepads
Cons:
- You have a pot smoking thirteen old trying to give you orders, and if you're unlucky, he wants to represent you in some way
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On January 25 2013 06:19 Alaric wrote:7th rune page and 8th mastery page (oh, he got a name change it seems). He's using a "classic" AS/AD runepage, no idea why the 4 ArPen (I guess most jungle monsters have 4 armour, never bothered to check, I just know buffs have 10), and offensive masteries because his goal is usually to snowball the game early so he looks at being able to deal the most damage possible for early kills (at least that's my reasoning). He goes machete+5 -> boots -> brutalizer -> finish boots around then if he gets tabi -> pickaxe -> Lizard spirit -> finish boots around there if mercs. He usually goes this way (from most fed to not fed): BT -> lizard spirit -> BC. His defensive item is always a warmogs (he'll complete BC after his first big item if he keeps getting fed/farmed). He went for randuin's/BC/mallet (can't remember his other 2 items, boots were homeguard tabi) the only game where I saw him behind. Skill order is WEQ R>E>Q>W Xj9 always goes damage by default.
The math in this guide says R>Q>E>W.
Is it wrong?
I started going QWE R>Q>E>W after reading it, and I like it a lot more. The cooldown on the Q at higher levels gives you so much more utility, it's outrageous. I don't jungle her though.
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On January 25 2013 08:15 remedium wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2013 06:19 Alaric wrote:7th rune page and 8th mastery page (oh, he got a name change it seems). He's using a "classic" AS/AD runepage, no idea why the 4 ArPen (I guess most jungle monsters have 4 armour, never bothered to check, I just know buffs have 10), and offensive masteries because his goal is usually to snowball the game early so he looks at being able to deal the most damage possible for early kills (at least that's my reasoning). He goes machete+5 -> boots -> brutalizer -> finish boots around then if he gets tabi -> pickaxe -> Lizard spirit -> finish boots around there if mercs. He usually goes this way (from most fed to not fed): BT -> lizard spirit -> BC. His defensive item is always a warmogs (he'll complete BC after his first big item if he keeps getting fed/farmed). He went for randuin's/BC/mallet (can't remember his other 2 items, boots were homeguard tabi) the only game where I saw him behind. Skill order is WEQ R>E>Q>W Xj9 always goes damage by default. The math in this guide says R>Q>E>W. Is it wrong? I started going QWE R>Q>E>W after reading it, and I like it a lot more. The cooldown on the Q at higher levels gives you so much more utility, it's outrageous. I don't jungle her though.
Seuss and I think that R>Q>W>E is better (the math says you can clear as fast with Q max and E max but the latter takes one more E cast per camp, which is more mana than Q max despite its mana cost increasing when leveled) because you get more mobility (both in the jungle and during ganks) and maxing W earlier results in a steep dps increase, Smash and Xj9 prefer the skill order I mentioned. Smash said that he feels Q first eats too much mana (he doesn't Q into the camps at all) and I haven't bothered trying to ask Xj9 since his stream chat spams way too much now that he's got viewers.
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United States37500 Posts
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Can anyone explain or point me to some kind of reference that explains the interaction between Last Whisper and Vi's 'W' armor reduction?
Not sure if Vi's W reduces the amount of armor that Last Whisper penetrates or how those two synergise.
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The downside of Q first is that you're betting a lot on landing that ability. In a lot of scenarios you can't guarantee that opportunity, whereas if you reach someone at all you're guaranteed to land at least one E. That's why E first is popular for laning and why some junglers prefer that route.
W's priority is subject to similar concerns. If you're building tanky (like I do) it's a much better option that E because % Health damage is awesome. However, if you're building significant AD maxing E before W can be stronger.
In many ways I find Vi to be one of the best champion designs by Riot in recent months, simply because there really isn't one right answer for her skill order. There are even situations where W first is arguably best.
On January 25 2013 08:26 Agnosthar wrote:
Can anyone explain or point me to some kind of reference that explains the interaction between Last Whisper and Vi's 'W' armor reduction?
Not sure if Vi's W reduces the amount of armor that Last Whisper penetrates or how those two synergise.
It's no different than any other interaction between % Reduction and % Penetration.
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Vi reduces, then LW reduces what's left. Reduction is applied before penetration. They're multiplicative so Vi'll ignore something like half your armor in that case.
On January 25 2013 08:30 Seuss wrote:
In many ways I find Vi to be one of the best champion designs by Riot in recent months, simply because there really isn't one right answer for her skill order. There are even situations where W first is arguably best.
Eat this Cho!
I didn't think about that but you're right though. To think I posted a wall-of-text regarding Nasus' design when we talk about his utility as support, and missed Vi.
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On January 25 2013 08:20 Alaric wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2013 08:15 remedium wrote:On January 25 2013 06:19 Alaric wrote:7th rune page and 8th mastery page (oh, he got a name change it seems). He's using a "classic" AS/AD runepage, no idea why the 4 ArPen (I guess most jungle monsters have 4 armour, never bothered to check, I just know buffs have 10), and offensive masteries because his goal is usually to snowball the game early so he looks at being able to deal the most damage possible for early kills (at least that's my reasoning). He goes machete+5 -> boots -> brutalizer -> finish boots around then if he gets tabi -> pickaxe -> Lizard spirit -> finish boots around there if mercs. He usually goes this way (from most fed to not fed): BT -> lizard spirit -> BC. His defensive item is always a warmogs (he'll complete BC after his first big item if he keeps getting fed/farmed). He went for randuin's/BC/mallet (can't remember his other 2 items, boots were homeguard tabi) the only game where I saw him behind. Skill order is WEQ R>E>Q>W Xj9 always goes damage by default. The math in this guide says R>Q>E>W. Is it wrong? I started going QWE R>Q>E>W after reading it, and I like it a lot more. The cooldown on the Q at higher levels gives you so much more utility, it's outrageous. I don't jungle her though. Seuss and I think that R>Q>W>E is better (the math says you can clear as fast with Q max and E max but the latter takes one more E cast per camp, which is more mana than Q max despite its mana cost increasing when leveled) because you get more mobility (both in the jungle and during ganks) and maxing W earlier results in a steep dps increase, Smash and Xj9 prefer the skill order I mentioned. Smash said that he feels Q first eats too much mana (he doesn't Q into the camps at all) and I haven't bothered trying to ask Xj9 since his stream chat spams way too much now that he's got viewers.
Wait what... No Q into camps?
Thats half the skill of jungling Vi - Lining up your Q from whatever angle you start the camp so you hit everything and is in position to hit the big monster while having E hit the small ones.
Its really hard for buff camps from some angles, and purple side golems are annoying too.
You are either really stupid or counter jungling if you don't use Q. The cooldown is short, and the damage boost makes you instaclear most camps if you have good items (even buff camps if you use smite).
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
Bly, you just described why NA sucks.
If the farm system sucks, you ain't gonna be bringing new talent into the big leagues. That's why NA recycles used trash over and over instead of developing new players and new teams. Some "top" tier NA teams refuse to scrim each other because of who knows what, and they're too busy fucking around in trolo q instead of actually practicing. It's as if people don't care.
Azubu Frost needed a top laner, so they went and got some guy no one had heard of. After months of training, he turned out to be a beast. Caomei was a pile of shit at S2 championships for WE, and by the time IPL5 came around, he was a monster. But in the NA scene you have a bunch of people tossing around used goods like Polaroid instant cameras as if they're still good now.
No player development, Americans are fuckin lazy, and too much satisfaction from streaming that cuts into any desire to actually get good at the game and win something. Perennial losers, and until something changes in terms of how NA approaches the scene, they'll always be losers.
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EPT
