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On January 25 2013 04:53 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2013 04:36 zulu_nation8 wrote:On January 25 2013 01:04 Seuss wrote:I think it's important to note that I revised my opinion of the viability of a "carry jungler" after analyzing the TROLLS tests from last Friday. To summarize, the math remains accurate, but the playstyle is extremely restrictive. It places a very, very large burden on your team to perpetually clear the jungle except when covering lanes, forcing all lanes into a limited set of safe picks, and because you aren't ganking any lane that falls behind is generally screwed. A better method is to emulate XJ9's solo queue jungle style, only explicit as an arranged team. If the jungler is allowed to levy a reasonable tax on lanes after a gank, they can have a monstrous amount of farm by the mid-game whether or not their ganks are particularly successful. Essentially, TheYango's comments from earlier are fairly on point. Because the gold value of jungle farm is in close parity with lanes now, junglers can be assigned a wider variety of farm priorities. It's simply a question of whether a highly farmed jungler is what the team wants or needs. true in theory, and i've thought about this for a while now, but i've never seen it actually work in 5s. Even xj9 gets raped in 5s. Old school st.v was able to do it to some extent.
but not consistently versus good teams in real matches iirc
in the end, your ability as a jungler to carry is limited by how farmed your opposing ADC is. if you've got 200 farm at 20 minutes because you're taxing your own lanes, but so does the enemy ezreal, he's just going to kite your ass for the win while your own ADC struggles to take down their jungler because of how underfarmed he is
it's definitely worth exploring but i think the multiplicative scaling of ADCs is too strong for any jungler to take a true carry role in real games
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To be honest I think she's too strong right now and may need nerfs. Since I build her tanky I didn't notice how much burst she has until I started watching xj9 (and seeing how he doesn't seem to do as good with Hecarim or even Kha'Zix, despite Kha retardedness when it comes to damage), but even then I've had such better results since jungling her compared to my usual performances that it can't be me suddenly getting better from playing a champ whose style I like.
Wow, Riven can keep on Qing if she used the first one, during Elise's cocoon. Is it the same with other CCs? That's absurdly practical.
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United States47024 Posts
On January 25 2013 04:58 gtrsrs wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2013 04:53 wei2coolman wrote:On January 25 2013 04:36 zulu_nation8 wrote:On January 25 2013 01:04 Seuss wrote:I think it's important to note that I revised my opinion of the viability of a "carry jungler" after analyzing the TROLLS tests from last Friday. To summarize, the math remains accurate, but the playstyle is extremely restrictive. It places a very, very large burden on your team to perpetually clear the jungle except when covering lanes, forcing all lanes into a limited set of safe picks, and because you aren't ganking any lane that falls behind is generally screwed. A better method is to emulate XJ9's solo queue jungle style, only explicit as an arranged team. If the jungler is allowed to levy a reasonable tax on lanes after a gank, they can have a monstrous amount of farm by the mid-game whether or not their ganks are particularly successful. Essentially, TheYango's comments from earlier are fairly on point. Because the gold value of jungle farm is in close parity with lanes now, junglers can be assigned a wider variety of farm priorities. It's simply a question of whether a highly farmed jungler is what the team wants or needs. true in theory, and i've thought about this for a while now, but i've never seen it actually work in 5s. Even xj9 gets raped in 5s. Old school st.v was able to do it to some extent. but not consistently versus good teams in real matches iirc in the end, your ability as a jungler to carry is limited by how farmed your opposing ADC is. if you've got 200 farm at 20 minutes because you're taxing your own lanes, but so does the enemy ezreal, he's just going to kite your ass for the win while your own ADC struggles to take down their jungler because of how underfarmed he is it's definitely worth exploring but i think the multiplicative scaling of ADCs is too strong for any jungler to take a true carry role in real games
In fact, at that time it was a common and consistent problem that people would point out that Chauster (who was still playing AD at the time) was consistently underfarmed due to how aggressively Hotshot and Saintvicious would take farm from pushed lanes rather than allowing him to have it.
That said, I think it has partially to do with the development of AD play over the next few months. "The multiplicative scaling of ADCs" is not something inherent to AD carry as a role, but due to the fact that AD carries are the only role in the game that have been able to get away with 4 offensive+1 defensive or even 5 offensive+no defensive items in a long game. However, as we've noted over the past month, there's been a marked shift toward earlier defensive items on AD carries.
The question is how this will pan out in the long run, as, at the absolute pinnacle of AD play, 4 offensive+1 defensive is still sustainable (in the Royal vs. WE series in G-League, neither Uzi nor Weixiao opted for the newer routes of early defensive itemization). Will the shift toward greater defensive AD itemization continue, or will we bounce back toward glass cannon ADs? Certainly if it's the former, there is room to explore for melee carries, seeing as the typical 2 offensive+3 defensive item development for a melee carry is not so different in damage dealing potential from a 3 offensive+2 defensive item ranged carry. The multiplicative DPS difference only becomes extraordinarily pronounced when comparing with a 4/5 offensive item AD carry.
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Love the Thresh Login Music!!!!
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oh man thresh is so funny, normally I try to avoid jungling as much as possible but I duo queued a few games with a buddy now and he spammed thresh games while I always picked a jungler with reliable cc like pantheon, maokai and Naut. Make sure to get a pinkward at the start and then lanegank all day. If they manage to blow their flashes the first time, the second time it's a guaranteed kill/doublekill.
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United States37500 Posts
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On January 25 2013 04:59 Alaric wrote:Wow, Riven can keep on Qing if she used the first one, during Elise's cocoon. Is it the same with other CCs? That's absurdly practical.
Yeah her Q is really buggy like that. There was a point in time where she could keep using Q even if she was under the GA revive animation.
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United States15536 Posts
LIVE FOR THE SWA... i mean, DARKNESSSSS.
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On January 25 2013 04:59 Alaric wrote:
To be honest I think she's too strong right now and may need nerfs. Since I build her tanky I didn't notice how much burst she has until I started watching xj9 (and seeing how he doesn't seem to do as good with Hecarim or even Kha'Zix, despite Kha retardedness when it comes to damage), but even then I've had such better results since jungling her compared to my usual performances that it can't be me suddenly getting better from playing a champ whose style I like.
Wow, Riven can keep on Qing if she used the first one, during Elise's cocoon. Is it the same with other CCs? That's absurdly practical.
shh, dont say it too loudly! No, seriously, Vi is pretty strong right now IMO, I'm like 6-1 with her and the 1 loss was a huge throw. Still, I believe she has some very big weaknesses that people will start figuring out when she gets played more, Firstly people seem to not realise that her passive and her W exist. So many times that people start dueling me not realising I'll get a W proc soon and my passive will give me a shield.
Secondly, her skin makes her look a lot more tankier than she is so people do not focus her (seriously).
Thirdly, I think she's very weak vs counterjungling early
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Lol that title.
Too much smarts for us, Neo.
(Also, I get the feeling that somehow the Reddit mods are going to catch on to us artificially getting every TL post to the front page. Even though some posts deserve it more than others anyway lolol)
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United States37500 Posts
On January 25 2013 05:30 WaveofShadow wrote:Lol that title. Too much smarts for us, Neo. (Also, I get the feeling that somehow the Reddit mods are going to catch on to us artificially getting every TL post to the front page. Even though some posts deserve it more than others anyway lolol)
I try, I try.
As for upvotes, I use Twitter too and get retweet from guys like Deman and Jatt. I cover my bases. It's not just TL LoL GD I use.
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Vancouver14381 Posts
On January 25 2013 05:30 WaveofShadow wrote:Lol that title. Too much smarts for us, Neo. (Also, I get the feeling that somehow the Reddit mods are going to catch on to us artificially getting every TL post to the front page. Even though some posts deserve it more than others anyway lolol)
That's ok. We post your casts on reddit and you post our recaps.
#karmaconspiracy
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On January 25 2013 05:31 NeoIllusions wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2013 05:30 WaveofShadow wrote:Lol that title. Too much smarts for us, Neo. (Also, I get the feeling that somehow the Reddit mods are going to catch on to us artificially getting every TL post to the front page. Even though some posts deserve it more than others anyway lolol) I try, I try. As for upvotes, I use Twitter too and get retweet from guys like Deman and Jatt. I cover my bases. It's not just TL LoL GD I use.
I'm so bad at social networking.
Internets too hard.
Edit: Whoa I just realized...this one came really fast! you guys have really improved your efficiency with these articles. Well done!
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United States15536 Posts
On January 25 2013 05:35 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2013 05:31 NeoIllusions wrote:On January 25 2013 05:30 WaveofShadow wrote:Lol that title. Too much smarts for us, Neo. (Also, I get the feeling that somehow the Reddit mods are going to catch on to us artificially getting every TL post to the front page. Even though some posts deserve it more than others anyway lolol) I try, I try. As for upvotes, I use Twitter too and get retweet from guys like Deman and Jatt. I cover my bases. It's not just TL LoL GD I use. I'm so bad at social networking. Internets too hard. Edit: Whoa I just realized...this one came really fast! you guys have really improved your efficiency with these articles. Well done!
That's cuz Neo, JBright, and MB are pro as heck. Some of us are noob scrubs. >_<
And have big scary things to work on. Delegation 2 OP.
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United States23745 Posts
On January 25 2013 05:31 NeoIllusions wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2013 05:30 WaveofShadow wrote:Lol that title. Too much smarts for us, Neo. (Also, I get the feeling that somehow the Reddit mods are going to catch on to us artificially getting every TL post to the front page. Even though some posts deserve it more than others anyway lolol) I try, I try. As for upvotes, I use Twitter too and get retweet from guys like Deman and Jatt. I cover my bases. It's not just TL LoL GD I use.
Worst comes to worst next time he just doesn't use the word upvote, they can't stop him from posting the thread here and altering us to it's presence lol.
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Seeing an Alistar headbutt somebody through one of Thresh's walls is much funnier than I would have thought.
On January 25 2013 05:27 pfff wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2013 04:59 Alaric wrote:
To be honest I think she's too strong right now and may need nerfs. Since I build her tanky I didn't notice how much burst she has until I started watching xj9 (and seeing how he doesn't seem to do as good with Hecarim or even Kha'Zix, despite Kha retardedness when it comes to damage), but even then I've had such better results since jungling her compared to my usual performances that it can't be me suddenly getting better from playing a champ whose style I like.
Wow, Riven can keep on Qing if she used the first one, during Elise's cocoon. Is it the same with other CCs? That's absurdly practical. shh, dont say it too loudly! No, seriously, Vi is pretty strong right now IMO, I'm like 6-1 with her and the 1 loss was a huge throw. Still, I believe she has some very big weaknesses that people will start figuring out when she gets played more, Firstly people seem to not realise that her passive and her W exist. So many times that people start dueling me not realising I'll get a W proc soon and my passive will give me a shield. Secondly, her skin makes her look a lot more tankier than she is so people do not focus her (seriously). Thirdly, I think she's very weak vs counterjungling early
If she's counterjungled before she has Q she loses her escape and some burst, and she isn't tanky at all (her shield as a long-ass cd that's probably not up because she proc-'d it on a camp), I agree.
Another weakness that's probably more visible top lane is that despite having reach, she has no options to fight "safely", she needs to get in melee range to do anything, like most bruisers truth be told, but that means she's susceptible to pokes and pushes. I feel really powerless against a team that's sieging us because apart from hard-initiating on them I can't do much as Vi, and I can't even trigger my passive to shield some harass since I require to hit something for that.
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Hey what happened to the ESV Korean weekly events? I haven't seen you guys cover sc2 in awhile ;/
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can the regular Xj9 watchers tell me his runes/masteries on Vi and if he has a go to build?
Don't know if 21/9 or 9/21 is better and even more unsure about build, probably sth like madred's, sunfire, frozen mallet? or is he going straight dmg, like bt, bc etc.
2 games 2 wins in ranked so far, no time to try her in normals ^^
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EPT
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