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On December 19 2012 18:03 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 17:15 cLutZ wrote:On December 19 2012 16:04 Vei wrote:On December 19 2012 15:36 Skithiryx wrote:On December 19 2012 15:15 Vei wrote:On December 19 2012 14:58 jadoth wrote:On December 19 2012 14:49 Vei wrote:
Hmm so the main point you're saying is keeping pushed a decent amount will prevent losses of creeps to your own tower, right? Or did I misunderstand? He is Saying if you clear a wave and get a lane pushing but it is pushing slowly then it will eat multiple enemy waves while on their side of the map were you cant go farm it, but if you have enough vision and pressure that you can take the time to clear a wave and then run up and kill the next wave as well it will push much faster so you lose less cs to your own creeps. so taking like two waves so you don't lose any while you b? this is about not losing creeps while b'ing and running back, or am i still misunderstanding? Kinda of Scenario 1 - You kill 1 wave of creeps, you then back to base and it slow pushes into the enemy tower eating 3-4 creep waves without which is cs you miss Scenario 2 - You kill 2-3 waves of creeps, you then back to base and it pushes alot faster into the enemy tower eatin 1-2 creep waves which you miss Scenarioa 3 - You kill 3-4 waves of creeps, you then back to base and the giant wave dies to the tower and takes maybe 1/2 of the wave with it. Ideally Scenario 3 is what you want everytime but thanks to ganks and enemy laners it may not happen that often. The best choice from there is Scenario 2 as you take the least amount of losses while still playing fairly safely. Ahhh I see.. now when you say killing these waves, is this like quantifiable in any other ways? Like, last hitting 3-4 waves compared to autoing them nonstop with support helping... and do you "often" have to go through their jungle, inbetween outer and inner turret, to farm another wave to make this effective? sorry for still not really understanding, although i think i kind of am now. basically: although pushing makes you vulnerable to jungle, it also saves enemy creep HP because your minions die to enemy tower instead of dmging them, so the more you push, the more enemy minion HP is conserved for you to last hit when you have to b and run back. The concept is a lot like "freezing" a wave. When you are planning on freezing you leave 3-5 minions up. You do that because it means the enemy wave will always be stronger than your wave, and you need it to be otherwise you will naturally push as a result of last hits. The enemy wave will evaporate your wave very quickly, and the opposing laner will lose all the CS and EXP. Now, imagine the 1st tier towers are taken, so the lane is now very long. Lets say your side has the 3 minion advantage, with no intervention your wave will snowball this advantage into 6, 10, 12 etc minion advantages and just eat up the other side's wave until it hits the enemy tower (where it will damage the tower/die). When you are pushing town turrets elsewhere you want this to happen (you get free towers or you get a 4v5), but when you are farming you want the opposite to happen. You want the wave pushing towards you so the other team loses creeps and you lose few. The best way to get the wave to push to you is to push it to tower. What I've been trying to learn is how to actually do this. I'm sort of a newb, but I play almost solely ADC. While I understand the concepts behind lane equilibrium (playing a lot of dota 2 teaches you such things), I really don't get how freezing works in LoL. In Dota 2, it's all about making sure the waves are even, which you do by attacking your own creeps. However, since you can't attack your own creeps in LoL, you have no control over your own push. You can't "let enemy minions live", because your creeps are killing them, you're just ignoring lasthits. I realize that if you're "lucky", your opponent pushes too hard or whatever, your wave dies first and you can "tank" the damage of the enemy creeps until your wave shows up, but I don't see how you have any control over it yourself. If you're alone in a lane, it seems literally impossible to freeze it without completely missing last hits.
Early Game (like when you get to lane lvl 1) you can't really freeze. Tanking the minions is too much damage and ull just lose lane. You can prevent ur own lane from pushing by last hitting at the last possible second. Players that are really good probably wait until the Caster minions throw the projectiles and kill it right before that (these players are not me).
Later on you can tank casters to keep them alive and not at tower to freeze. They key to freezing is always last hitting at the last possible second.
Finally, if your alone in lane, usually the best answer is to push the wave to the tower and let it die. Usually the other laner will lose CS/Exp, you get tower pressure, and you have a chance to back yourself pretty safely.
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On December 19 2012 18:03 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 17:15 cLutZ wrote:On December 19 2012 16:04 Vei wrote:On December 19 2012 15:36 Skithiryx wrote:On December 19 2012 15:15 Vei wrote:On December 19 2012 14:58 jadoth wrote:On December 19 2012 14:49 Vei wrote:
Hmm so the main point you're saying is keeping pushed a decent amount will prevent losses of creeps to your own tower, right? Or did I misunderstand? He is Saying if you clear a wave and get a lane pushing but it is pushing slowly then it will eat multiple enemy waves while on their side of the map were you cant go farm it, but if you have enough vision and pressure that you can take the time to clear a wave and then run up and kill the next wave as well it will push much faster so you lose less cs to your own creeps. so taking like two waves so you don't lose any while you b? this is about not losing creeps while b'ing and running back, or am i still misunderstanding? Kinda of Scenario 1 - You kill 1 wave of creeps, you then back to base and it slow pushes into the enemy tower eating 3-4 creep waves without which is cs you miss Scenario 2 - You kill 2-3 waves of creeps, you then back to base and it pushes alot faster into the enemy tower eatin 1-2 creep waves which you miss Scenarioa 3 - You kill 3-4 waves of creeps, you then back to base and the giant wave dies to the tower and takes maybe 1/2 of the wave with it. Ideally Scenario 3 is what you want everytime but thanks to ganks and enemy laners it may not happen that often. The best choice from there is Scenario 2 as you take the least amount of losses while still playing fairly safely. Ahhh I see.. now when you say killing these waves, is this like quantifiable in any other ways? Like, last hitting 3-4 waves compared to autoing them nonstop with support helping... and do you "often" have to go through their jungle, inbetween outer and inner turret, to farm another wave to make this effective? sorry for still not really understanding, although i think i kind of am now. basically: although pushing makes you vulnerable to jungle, it also saves enemy creep HP because your minions die to enemy tower instead of dmging them, so the more you push, the more enemy minion HP is conserved for you to last hit when you have to b and run back. The concept is a lot like "freezing" a wave. When you are planning on freezing you leave 3-5 minions up. You do that because it means the enemy wave will always be stronger than your wave, and you need it to be otherwise you will naturally push as a result of last hits. The enemy wave will evaporate your wave very quickly, and the opposing laner will lose all the CS and EXP. Now, imagine the 1st tier towers are taken, so the lane is now very long. Lets say your side has the 3 minion advantage, with no intervention your wave will snowball this advantage into 6, 10, 12 etc minion advantages and just eat up the other side's wave until it hits the enemy tower (where it will damage the tower/die). When you are pushing town turrets elsewhere you want this to happen (you get free towers or you get a 4v5), but when you are farming you want the opposite to happen. You want the wave pushing towards you so the other team loses creeps and you lose few. The best way to get the wave to push to you is to push it to tower. What I've been trying to learn is how to actually do this. I'm sort of a newb, but I play almost solely ADC. While I understand the concepts behind lane equilibrium (playing a lot of dota 2 teaches you such things), I really don't get how freezing works in LoL. In Dota 2, it's all about making sure the waves are even, which you do by attacking your own creeps. However, since you can't attack your own creeps in LoL, you have no control over your own push. You can't "let enemy minions live", because your creeps are killing them, you're just ignoring lasthits. I realize that if you're "lucky", your opponent pushes too hard or whatever, your wave dies first and you can "tank" the damage of the enemy creeps until your wave shows up, but I don't see how you have any control over it yourself. If you're alone in a lane, it seems literally impossible to freeze it without completely missing last hits.
It's a lot harder to freeze a lane in lol. First you have to be able to judge which direction the lane is pushing in, and how quickly.
If its pushing away from your tower, you can either:
1) Shove the entire wave under their tower and try to reset, which is typically only possible when the enemy laner(s) have based
2) Bait out a gank. If you're well warded and under no threat of global/semiglobal ganks then pushing hard enough to attract a gank would mean that the wave will probably push towards you if the gank actually goes through. If you die then at least you won't lose any creeps to the tower x.x
3) Eat some harass or stop last hitting. Obviously this will usually work against you but if you're desperate to keep your wave from pushing away its an option.
If its pushing towards you you should really have no problem keeping it that way if you want to. Just make sure none of the melee minions act stupid enough to suicide to your tower.
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One more thing about trying to avoid your creep pushing tower enemy tower, is you can bait the enemy champion attack you, then you don't attack him. Your creeps then will attack him which means they are not attacking enemy minions while still taking damage from enemy minions. That way your minions should die a bit faster thus stop them from pushing.
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So basically, when the lane is pushing away from you, you generally will try to push the wave even harder by either hitting/AOE nuke the minions, or harass your lane opponent (you will usually win trades because if he autos you he will eat a lot of minion damage). If you can push the wave to the enemy tower you will reset the lane and you will have the opportunity to roam or all-in if you want to.
When the lane is pushing to you, you can minimize the damage you do to enemy minions by last hitting at the last possible moment. But your lane opponent may try to push the wave even harder against you for the various reasons described above. In that case, you need to either 1. push the wave slightly and balance your damage to minions compared to your lane opponent's; or 2. as a last resort, if the wave is about to hit your tower, tank the minion wave to delay them from reaching your tower and resetting the lane.
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On December 19 2012 16:35 Louuster wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 16:04 Vei wrote:On December 19 2012 15:36 Skithiryx wrote:On December 19 2012 15:15 Vei wrote:On December 19 2012 14:58 jadoth wrote:On December 19 2012 14:49 Vei wrote:
Hmm so the main point you're saying is keeping pushed a decent amount will prevent losses of creeps to your own tower, right? Or did I misunderstand? He is Saying if you clear a wave and get a lane pushing but it is pushing slowly then it will eat multiple enemy waves while on their side of the map were you cant go farm it, but if you have enough vision and pressure that you can take the time to clear a wave and then run up and kill the next wave as well it will push much faster so you lose less cs to your own creeps. so taking like two waves so you don't lose any while you b? this is about not losing creeps while b'ing and running back, or am i still misunderstanding? Kinda of Scenario 1 - You kill 1 wave of creeps, you then back to base and it slow pushes into the enemy tower eating 3-4 creep waves without which is cs you miss Scenario 2 - You kill 2-3 waves of creeps, you then back to base and it pushes alot faster into the enemy tower eatin 1-2 creep waves which you miss Scenarioa 3 - You kill 3-4 waves of creeps, you then back to base and the giant wave dies to the tower and takes maybe 1/2 of the wave with it. Ideally Scenario 3 is what you want everytime but thanks to ganks and enemy laners it may not happen that often. The best choice from there is Scenario 2 as you take the least amount of losses while still playing fairly safely. Ahhh I see.. now when you say killing these waves, is this like quantifiable in any other ways? Like, last hitting 3-4 waves compared to autoing them nonstop with support helping... and do you "often" have to go through their jungle, inbetween outer and inner turret, to farm another wave to make this effective? sorry for still not really understanding, although i think i kind of am now. basically: although pushing makes you vulnerable to jungle, it also saves enemy creep HP because your minions die to enemy tower instead of dmging them, so the more you push, the more enemy minion HP is conserved for you to last hit when you have to b and run back. They're not talking about going in between the towers to CS and stuff but more general lane pushing mechanics. Think of it this way: you're on the bot lane doing pretty well and you end up taking their tower early. Now you have a few options of how to go from there. You can freeze it near your tower as much as possible, but this lets them go do other stuff on the map. The other option is to push it. How far you can push it depends on how the game is going, and how safe you feel going up on their side. Say you clear the first wave roughly in the middle. You will have a few leftover minions pushing deeper on their side. This in turn makes it that your minion waves will always have a numbers advantage and will slowly push until it reaches the tower, or someone from their team clears it. At that point, their wave will start pushing back towards your side. This means that if you want to keep csing in lane, you have to follow your wave as it progresses on their side towars the tier 2. If for whatever reason you dont want to follow, all the minions that die from your wave slowly pushing are "wasted" cs. This means that the longer it takes for their wave to start pushing back, the more cs you waste. The ideal situation for you would be to push it all the way to the tower, to make it start pushing back immediately, which is not always possible.
jesus christ i feel like i've just learned about hotkeying buildings or something this seems like a really important tactic... thanks for the help everyone i will be giving this a conscious effort now.
One more question if anyone doesn't mind, then: at what level can you start doing this? Does this "generally" not become as important in the midgame, or is it something that has use the entire game? This is very eye-opening to a new dimension of strategy for me. I always knew about like, pushing to deny last hits or wanting to stay near your tower but not the specifics like people have been explaining.
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On December 19 2012 19:04 Vei wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 16:35 Louuster wrote:On December 19 2012 16:04 Vei wrote:On December 19 2012 15:36 Skithiryx wrote:On December 19 2012 15:15 Vei wrote:On December 19 2012 14:58 jadoth wrote:On December 19 2012 14:49 Vei wrote:
Hmm so the main point you're saying is keeping pushed a decent amount will prevent losses of creeps to your own tower, right? Or did I misunderstand? He is Saying if you clear a wave and get a lane pushing but it is pushing slowly then it will eat multiple enemy waves while on their side of the map were you cant go farm it, but if you have enough vision and pressure that you can take the time to clear a wave and then run up and kill the next wave as well it will push much faster so you lose less cs to your own creeps. so taking like two waves so you don't lose any while you b? this is about not losing creeps while b'ing and running back, or am i still misunderstanding? Kinda of Scenario 1 - You kill 1 wave of creeps, you then back to base and it slow pushes into the enemy tower eating 3-4 creep waves without which is cs you miss Scenario 2 - You kill 2-3 waves of creeps, you then back to base and it pushes alot faster into the enemy tower eatin 1-2 creep waves which you miss Scenarioa 3 - You kill 3-4 waves of creeps, you then back to base and the giant wave dies to the tower and takes maybe 1/2 of the wave with it. Ideally Scenario 3 is what you want everytime but thanks to ganks and enemy laners it may not happen that often. The best choice from there is Scenario 2 as you take the least amount of losses while still playing fairly safely. Ahhh I see.. now when you say killing these waves, is this like quantifiable in any other ways? Like, last hitting 3-4 waves compared to autoing them nonstop with support helping... and do you "often" have to go through their jungle, inbetween outer and inner turret, to farm another wave to make this effective? sorry for still not really understanding, although i think i kind of am now. basically: although pushing makes you vulnerable to jungle, it also saves enemy creep HP because your minions die to enemy tower instead of dmging them, so the more you push, the more enemy minion HP is conserved for you to last hit when you have to b and run back. They're not talking about going in between the towers to CS and stuff but more general lane pushing mechanics. Think of it this way: you're on the bot lane doing pretty well and you end up taking their tower early. Now you have a few options of how to go from there. You can freeze it near your tower as much as possible, but this lets them go do other stuff on the map. The other option is to push it. How far you can push it depends on how the game is going, and how safe you feel going up on their side. Say you clear the first wave roughly in the middle. You will have a few leftover minions pushing deeper on their side. This in turn makes it that your minion waves will always have a numbers advantage and will slowly push until it reaches the tower, or someone from their team clears it. At that point, their wave will start pushing back towards your side. This means that if you want to keep csing in lane, you have to follow your wave as it progresses on their side towars the tier 2. If for whatever reason you dont want to follow, all the minions that die from your wave slowly pushing are "wasted" cs. This means that the longer it takes for their wave to start pushing back, the more cs you waste. The ideal situation for you would be to push it all the way to the tower, to make it start pushing back immediately, which is not always possible. jesus christ i feel like i've just learned about hotkeying buildings or something this seems like a really important tactic... thanks for the help everyone i will be giving this a conscious effort now.
Really, there's a lot of details etc, but the basic idea is quite simple to pull off and makes a massive difference. Just a simple thing like always pushing into the enemy tower when it's SS in your lane makes a huge difference by denying gold, exp and forcing your opponents to come defend.
Remember though, unless you specifically want to take down their tower early, you should probably not stay and attack the tower. Just make sure your creeps are at the tower dying to it, then you can safely back off and do something else for a while.
As for your followup question: You should do it all game, but it becomes less relevant and harder to accomplish over time. As soon as a few towers have gone down, the amount you have to push to get your wave all the way to your opponent tower becomes harder to do. Say your opponents have lost their first tower bot, to push all the way into their tower you have to go all the way up there, and since you're constantly at the waves pushing, your opponents have a lot of time to see you and react to the push... once you're close to the enemy tower, you're far from river and can be easily caught. Therefor, inte the later stages of the game, you generally just push really hard until the creepwave is beyond the river... at that point, it should already have built enough momentum to push to the opponents tower by itself, as long as they don't defend it midway. Also, something I learned from dota: Freezing a lane is great in the early game, but way too slow in the late game. You simply don't have time to sit around and wait for enemies to go down to 1% hp before you attack them, so instead you usually start using abilities etc to clear waves very fast and push really hard, then you go roam and teamfight instead of standing around in lane.
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don't get too stuck on long-termish lanecontrol if you are not in a team setup. in soloq one of your teammates will mess your plan up very quickly. I find that you can carry hardest in soloq if you push as aggressively as you can allways. you get more jungle attention and thus more opportunities to outplay your opponents and creating space for your teammates.
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On December 19 2012 17:06 schmutttt wrote:
Posting on an australian gaming forum, bunch of people trying to tell me ELO hell exists.
I enjoyed this particular gem: 'I found players at 1000 ELO are way less useful than players at 1300 ELO'
-__-
Which aussie forum?
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I just found out that Riot refunds people 50% of the RP they spend on the 'legendary' Tristana and Corki skins. I'M RICH NOW!
On the other hand, I'm sad that they make the Legacy skins available again, now I don't feel special anymore  .
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sOAZ getting banned (temp ban through it's okay). In 2 years, the whole pro scene will be brand new, with half the player retired for bad conduct.
:D
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On December 19 2012 20:15 WhiteDog wrote:
sOAZ getting banned (temp ban through it's okay). In 2 years, the whole pro scene will be brand new, with half the player retired for bad conduct.
:D
And rightly so imo. NN toxic players, even in the competitive scene. Pro players should be held to higher standards than normal players, due to the unique circumstance where Riot is actually paying salaries, which afaik hasn't happened before with a game dev. Pro players behaving badly would be bad for Riot's public image.
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On December 19 2012 19:34 clickrush wrote:
don't get too stuck on long-termish lanecontrol if you are not in a team setup. in soloq one of your teammates will mess your plan up very quickly. I find that you can carry hardest in soloq if you push as aggressively as you can allways. you get more jungle attention and thus more opportunities to outplay your opponents and creating space for your teammates.
No, no, no. Every single ADC at my elo does this, and i hate it. We are ahead in lane, enemy can't fight us. Lane is pushing our way. And they push it back. We could freeze in front of our tower forever, and the enemy adc would have 20 cs and level 5 at 20 minutes. But they push into the enemy turret, and thus they end up about even. It is so frustrating when people don't use an advantage they have for no apparent reason whatsoever. There is literally no thought process involved. They push the lane. Whatever the situation is, they push. Don't become that kind of player, it is a bad idea. If you can deny the enemy all farm from your lane, that is always worth it, even if they roam around. After all, if it wasn't, why aren't they roaming around all day anyways.
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United States47024 Posts
It depends a lot on the lane. AD roaming is by and large fairly ineffectual unless the enemy jungler is dragon-capable. Mid you generally just shove waves across, and top it depends on the laners in question.
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On December 19 2012 20:42 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 19:34 clickrush wrote:
don't get too stuck on long-termish lanecontrol if you are not in a team setup. in soloq one of your teammates will mess your plan up very quickly. I find that you can carry hardest in soloq if you push as aggressively as you can allways. you get more jungle attention and thus more opportunities to outplay your opponents and creating space for your teammates. No, no, no. Every single ADC at my elo does this, and i hate it. We are ahead in lane, enemy can't fight us. Lane is pushing our way. And they push it back. We could freeze in front of our tower forever, and the enemy adc would have 20 cs and level 5 at 20 minutes. But they push into the enemy turret, and thus they end up about even. It is so frustrating when people don't use an advantage they have for no apparent reason whatsoever. There is literally no thought process involved. They push the lane. Whatever the situation is, they push. Don't become that kind of player, it is a bad idea. If you can deny the enemy all farm from your lane, that is always worth it, even if they roam around. After all, if it wasn't, why aren't they roaming around all day anyways.
I agree with this, but it's certainly far far harder to do well. Generally I find if you're winning bot lane and push into their tower constantly, you will be up with 20-30 cs, but that advantage feels pretty constant... and your exp advantage is tiny to non-existant. While if you can handle freezing properly after taking an advantage, not only can you not be ganked, your advantage will snowball hard.
Personally, I find it pretty hard to "reset" a lane. I know the basics of it, push into their tower, their tower does the counter-pushing for you and their lane starts to push. However, I generally find that if the lane is just outside of the opponents tower and I push it into the tower, their lane won't actually push back all that much, it generally pushes it to that same spot just outside their tower range. I guess it's because I stay close to their tower so their wave doesn't push hard enough... about how far should I expect a "reset" to go, and is there any advice on how to make it reset "stronger"?
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o.O
in soloq bot lane is so much more fun if you don't constantly shove. How else do you get kills in lane?
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On December 19 2012 21:04 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 20:42 Simberto wrote:On December 19 2012 19:34 clickrush wrote:
don't get too stuck on long-termish lanecontrol if you are not in a team setup. in soloq one of your teammates will mess your plan up very quickly. I find that you can carry hardest in soloq if you push as aggressively as you can allways. you get more jungle attention and thus more opportunities to outplay your opponents and creating space for your teammates. No, no, no. Every single ADC at my elo does this, and i hate it. We are ahead in lane, enemy can't fight us. Lane is pushing our way. And they push it back. We could freeze in front of our tower forever, and the enemy adc would have 20 cs and level 5 at 20 minutes. But they push into the enemy turret, and thus they end up about even. It is so frustrating when people don't use an advantage they have for no apparent reason whatsoever. There is literally no thought process involved. They push the lane. Whatever the situation is, they push. Don't become that kind of player, it is a bad idea. If you can deny the enemy all farm from your lane, that is always worth it, even if they roam around. After all, if it wasn't, why aren't they roaming around all day anyways. I agree with this, but it's certainly far far harder to do well. Generally I find if you're winning bot lane and push into their tower constantly, you will be up with 20-30 cs, but that advantage feels pretty constant... and your exp advantage is tiny to non-existant. While if you can handle freezing properly after taking an advantage, not only can you not be ganked, your advantage will snowball hard. Personally, I find it pretty hard to "reset" a lane. I know the basics of it, push into their tower, their tower does the counter-pushing for you and their lane starts to push. However, I generally find that if the lane is just outside of the opponents tower and I push it into the tower, their lane won't actually push back all that much, it generally pushes it to that same spot just outside their tower range. I guess it's because I stay close to their tower so their wave doesn't push hard enough... about how far should I expect a "reset" to go, and is there any advice on how to make it reset "stronger"?
There is some timing involved and it also depends on how fast you can clear the enemy wave. There are scenarios where both your wave and the enemy wave will arrive at the enemy tower around at the same time. If your forced to back off at that moment, the enemy wave can get slightly damaged before your wave is killed by the enemy wave + tower. The damaged enemy wave will now push out and meet your next wave. Since your wave is stronger, it will again start to slowly push into the enemy tower. The enemy adc can now freeze the wave and you might be forced to overextend in order to farm, which is not good.
This is somewhat paradoxical because if your able to obliterate the enemy wave completely before having to back off, everything should be fine, as the lane will reset.
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On December 19 2012 21:21 seRapH wrote:
o.O
in soloq bot lane is so much more fun if you don't constantly shove. How else do you get kills in lane?
I know, which makes it even more annoying. I have no explanation for it except that they do it because everyone else does it, and they don't even think about another possibility existing. But they continue to do it after i tell them not to. It is very, very infuriating and the thing i hate most at the moment. I play support most of the time nowadays, and if i would have to make a guess, at most 1 in 20 ADs at my elo does not do this.
Basically, at the moment i am very happy if i actually have an AD that is capable of not pushing the lane. And even they are not brutal enough about it. I sometimes play premade with a friend of mine, and when we get an early advantage, the game is usually over. Completely. The enemy team is never coordinated enough to do anything about the enemy botlane being zoned completely from CS and XP until it is far to late for them to ever catch up. Usually they get frustrated and try to get cs nonetheless, which makes you able to kill them easily because they are close to your turret, and you are way stronger then they are. But when i get a random AD, and we get the same advantage, they just push the lane into turret constantly, and it slowly trickles away into nothingness.
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Server's back up.
Still no Vi.
edit -- and the launcher goes right back down, lol.
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I guess there is one exception to the 'ADs better freeze when possible'-discussion and that's Caitlyn.
It's so easy to push them from lvl 1 on and it's not getting punished by the jungler when your support wards properly (could be the problem in solo q). You can harass them so easily under their own turret while they are forced to focus on last hitting, especially early levels when it's not too easy to begin with.
Caitlyn will usually manage to push the enemy out of lanes several times which results in both a CS and EXP advantage. And I think that comes close or even to zoning the opponent, it's just another concept.
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On December 19 2012 21:04 Tobberoth wrote:
Personally, I find it pretty hard to "reset" a lane. I know the basics of it, push into their tower, their tower does the counter-pushing for you and their lane starts to push. However, I generally find that if the lane is just outside of the opponents tower and I push it into the tower, their lane won't actually push back all that much, it generally pushes it to that same spot just outside their tower range. I guess it's because I stay close to their tower so their wave doesn't push hard enough... about how far should I expect a "reset" to go, and is there any advice on how to make it reset "stronger"?
THIS.
Oh~ this so much. UGH. >_<
I constantly try it top (freezing, pushing wave to tower when I get a kill, pushing slightly to get an important level before my opponent) and one of the most frustrating things are when it's obvious your opponent doesn't know about it/doesn't do it, but you screw up somewhere and instead of gaining a huge edge out of it it backfires on you. I don't think I've ever managed to reset properly a wave, I send it crashing into the tower, then their next wave is barely damaged, loses and my wave wins, gets into tower range, damages their next before dying, and it repeats without seemingly ever leaving the tower till we're both back in lane and there I sit, waiting for the inevitable gank as I must get pretty close to farm/shove.
I know there's a timing related to the next wave's arrival time, but I haven't found it myself yet and it seems that the resources are pretty sparse on those items (DotA's much better documented on those things).
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EPT
