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So, so sososososososos good.
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For the people that messed around with Vi on the PBE, can she jungle decently?
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On December 19 2012 16:04 Vei wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 15:36 Skithiryx wrote:On December 19 2012 15:15 Vei wrote:On December 19 2012 14:58 jadoth wrote:On December 19 2012 14:49 Vei wrote:
Hmm so the main point you're saying is keeping pushed a decent amount will prevent losses of creeps to your own tower, right? Or did I misunderstand? He is Saying if you clear a wave and get a lane pushing but it is pushing slowly then it will eat multiple enemy waves while on their side of the map were you cant go farm it, but if you have enough vision and pressure that you can take the time to clear a wave and then run up and kill the next wave as well it will push much faster so you lose less cs to your own creeps. so taking like two waves so you don't lose any while you b? this is about not losing creeps while b'ing and running back, or am i still misunderstanding? Kinda of Scenario 1 - You kill 1 wave of creeps, you then back to base and it slow pushes into the enemy tower eating 3-4 creep waves without which is cs you miss Scenario 2 - You kill 2-3 waves of creeps, you then back to base and it pushes alot faster into the enemy tower eatin 1-2 creep waves which you miss Scenarioa 3 - You kill 3-4 waves of creeps, you then back to base and the giant wave dies to the tower and takes maybe 1/2 of the wave with it. Ideally Scenario 3 is what you want everytime but thanks to ganks and enemy laners it may not happen that often. The best choice from there is Scenario 2 as you take the least amount of losses while still playing fairly safely. Ahhh I see.. now when you say killing these waves, is this like quantifiable in any other ways? Like, last hitting 3-4 waves compared to autoing them nonstop with support helping... and do you "often" have to go through their jungle, inbetween outer and inner turret, to farm another wave to make this effective? sorry for still not really understanding, although i think i kind of am now. basically: although pushing makes you vulnerable to jungle, it also saves enemy creep HP because your minions die to enemy tower instead of dmging them, so the more you push, the more enemy minion HP is conserved for you to last hit when you have to b and run back.
Not quite. What it comes down to is what happens to the creep wave if you leave it right then and there. You ideally want to maximize enemy losses while minimizing your own. Even at the 1600 level, I see people doing it wrong. If you push such that you have 2 waves piled up, but it's still in the middle of the lane, and then you back, I'm going to freeze the lane as best I can so that it obliterates as many of my creeps as possible. Maximizing farm is not only farming right then, it's setting it up so that you can farm a lane after going to do something else while losing as little as possible.
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On December 19 2012 10:50 Koenig99 wrote:
FUCK YES, got 910RP back for being a sucker and buying Annie in Wonderland 2 years ago. Red Baron Corki all up in this bitch.
Yes! I no longer have to whinge about how Magnificent TF isn't worth 1800!
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On December 19 2012 16:12 Gahlo wrote:
For the people that messed around with Vi on the PBE, can she jungle decently?
Yeah she tears up the jungle with her W
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On December 19 2012 16:13 Amui wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 16:04 Vei wrote:On December 19 2012 15:36 Skithiryx wrote:On December 19 2012 15:15 Vei wrote:On December 19 2012 14:58 jadoth wrote:On December 19 2012 14:49 Vei wrote:
Hmm so the main point you're saying is keeping pushed a decent amount will prevent losses of creeps to your own tower, right? Or did I misunderstand? He is Saying if you clear a wave and get a lane pushing but it is pushing slowly then it will eat multiple enemy waves while on their side of the map were you cant go farm it, but if you have enough vision and pressure that you can take the time to clear a wave and then run up and kill the next wave as well it will push much faster so you lose less cs to your own creeps. so taking like two waves so you don't lose any while you b? this is about not losing creeps while b'ing and running back, or am i still misunderstanding? Kinda of Scenario 1 - You kill 1 wave of creeps, you then back to base and it slow pushes into the enemy tower eating 3-4 creep waves without which is cs you miss Scenario 2 - You kill 2-3 waves of creeps, you then back to base and it pushes alot faster into the enemy tower eatin 1-2 creep waves which you miss Scenarioa 3 - You kill 3-4 waves of creeps, you then back to base and the giant wave dies to the tower and takes maybe 1/2 of the wave with it. Ideally Scenario 3 is what you want everytime but thanks to ganks and enemy laners it may not happen that often. The best choice from there is Scenario 2 as you take the least amount of losses while still playing fairly safely. Ahhh I see.. now when you say killing these waves, is this like quantifiable in any other ways? Like, last hitting 3-4 waves compared to autoing them nonstop with support helping... and do you "often" have to go through their jungle, inbetween outer and inner turret, to farm another wave to make this effective? sorry for still not really understanding, although i think i kind of am now. basically: although pushing makes you vulnerable to jungle, it also saves enemy creep HP because your minions die to enemy tower instead of dmging them, so the more you push, the more enemy minion HP is conserved for you to last hit when you have to b and run back. Not quite. What it comes down to is what happens to the creep wave if you leave it right then and there. You ideally want to maximize enemy losses while minimizing your own. Even at the 1600 level, I see people doing it wrong. If you push such that you have 2 waves piled up, but it's still in the middle of the lane, and then you back, I'm going to freeze the lane as best I can so that it obliterates as many of my creeps as possible. Maximizing farm is not only farming right then, it's setting it up so that you can farm a lane after going to do something else while losing as little as possible.
Can you tell me roughly how you'd go about freezing the lane in that situation? I just googled lane freezing since I hadn't heard of it, and I think I get the concept in general, but not how you'd freeze it necessarily in all situations.. Would you kill like 1 wave and then tank the first few volleys and then let them aggro your wave?
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In terms of Ryze whats the most efficient spell rotation? Q->R->W->Q->E->Q (that's probably totally off but something off the top of my head)? Only just now have I bought him and been picking him up.
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On December 19 2012 16:30 sung_moon wrote:
In terms of Ryze whats the most efficient spell rotation? Q->R->W->Q->E->Q (that's probably totally off but something off the top of my head)? Only just now have I bought him and been picking him up.
Don't you want E sooner since it lowers MR?
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On December 19 2012 16:31 Vei wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 16:30 sung_moon wrote:
In terms of Ryze whats the most efficient spell rotation? Q->R->W->Q->E->Q (that's probably totally off but something off the top of my head)? Only just now have I bought him and been picking him up. Don't you want E sooner since it lowers MR?
Ideally yes, but in lots of practical situations if you don't W first you won't have a chance to finish the rotation.
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On December 19 2012 16:04 Vei wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 15:36 Skithiryx wrote:On December 19 2012 15:15 Vei wrote:On December 19 2012 14:58 jadoth wrote:On December 19 2012 14:49 Vei wrote:
Hmm so the main point you're saying is keeping pushed a decent amount will prevent losses of creeps to your own tower, right? Or did I misunderstand? He is Saying if you clear a wave and get a lane pushing but it is pushing slowly then it will eat multiple enemy waves while on their side of the map were you cant go farm it, but if you have enough vision and pressure that you can take the time to clear a wave and then run up and kill the next wave as well it will push much faster so you lose less cs to your own creeps. so taking like two waves so you don't lose any while you b? this is about not losing creeps while b'ing and running back, or am i still misunderstanding? Kinda of Scenario 1 - You kill 1 wave of creeps, you then back to base and it slow pushes into the enemy tower eating 3-4 creep waves without which is cs you miss Scenario 2 - You kill 2-3 waves of creeps, you then back to base and it pushes alot faster into the enemy tower eatin 1-2 creep waves which you miss Scenarioa 3 - You kill 3-4 waves of creeps, you then back to base and the giant wave dies to the tower and takes maybe 1/2 of the wave with it. Ideally Scenario 3 is what you want everytime but thanks to ganks and enemy laners it may not happen that often. The best choice from there is Scenario 2 as you take the least amount of losses while still playing fairly safely. Ahhh I see.. now when you say killing these waves, is this like quantifiable in any other ways? Like, last hitting 3-4 waves compared to autoing them nonstop with support helping... and do you "often" have to go through their jungle, inbetween outer and inner turret, to farm another wave to make this effective? sorry for still not really understanding, although i think i kind of am now. basically: although pushing makes you vulnerable to jungle, it also saves enemy creep HP because your minions die to enemy tower instead of dmging them, so the more you push, the more enemy minion HP is conserved for you to last hit when you have to b and run back.
They're not talking about going in between the towers to CS and stuff but more general lane pushing mechanics. Think of it this way: you're on the bot lane doing pretty well and you end up taking their tower early. Now you have a few options of how to go from there.
You can freeze it near your tower as much as possible, but this lets them go do other stuff on the map. The other option is to push it. How far you can push it depends on how the game is going, and how safe you feel going up on their side. Say you clear the first wave roughly in the middle. You will have a few leftover minions pushing deeper on their side. This in turn makes it that your minion waves will always have a numbers advantage and will slowly push until it reaches the tower, or someone from their team clears it. At that point, their wave will start pushing back towards your side. This means that if you want to keep csing in lane, you have to follow your wave as it progresses on their side towars the tier 2. If for whatever reason you dont want to follow, all the minions that die from your wave slowly pushing are "wasted" cs. This means that the longer it takes for their wave to start pushing back, the more cs you waste.
The ideal situation for you would be to push it all the way to the tower, to make it start pushing back immediately, which is not always possible.
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On December 19 2012 16:27 Vei wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 16:13 Amui wrote:On December 19 2012 16:04 Vei wrote:On December 19 2012 15:36 Skithiryx wrote:On December 19 2012 15:15 Vei wrote:On December 19 2012 14:58 jadoth wrote:On December 19 2012 14:49 Vei wrote:
Hmm so the main point you're saying is keeping pushed a decent amount will prevent losses of creeps to your own tower, right? Or did I misunderstand? He is Saying if you clear a wave and get a lane pushing but it is pushing slowly then it will eat multiple enemy waves while on their side of the map were you cant go farm it, but if you have enough vision and pressure that you can take the time to clear a wave and then run up and kill the next wave as well it will push much faster so you lose less cs to your own creeps. so taking like two waves so you don't lose any while you b? this is about not losing creeps while b'ing and running back, or am i still misunderstanding? Kinda of Scenario 1 - You kill 1 wave of creeps, you then back to base and it slow pushes into the enemy tower eating 3-4 creep waves without which is cs you miss Scenario 2 - You kill 2-3 waves of creeps, you then back to base and it pushes alot faster into the enemy tower eatin 1-2 creep waves which you miss Scenarioa 3 - You kill 3-4 waves of creeps, you then back to base and the giant wave dies to the tower and takes maybe 1/2 of the wave with it. Ideally Scenario 3 is what you want everytime but thanks to ganks and enemy laners it may not happen that often. The best choice from there is Scenario 2 as you take the least amount of losses while still playing fairly safely. Ahhh I see.. now when you say killing these waves, is this like quantifiable in any other ways? Like, last hitting 3-4 waves compared to autoing them nonstop with support helping... and do you "often" have to go through their jungle, inbetween outer and inner turret, to farm another wave to make this effective? sorry for still not really understanding, although i think i kind of am now. basically: although pushing makes you vulnerable to jungle, it also saves enemy creep HP because your minions die to enemy tower instead of dmging them, so the more you push, the more enemy minion HP is conserved for you to last hit when you have to b and run back. Not quite. What it comes down to is what happens to the creep wave if you leave it right then and there. You ideally want to maximize enemy losses while minimizing your own. Even at the 1600 level, I see people doing it wrong. If you push such that you have 2 waves piled up, but it's still in the middle of the lane, and then you back, I'm going to freeze the lane as best I can so that it obliterates as many of my creeps as possible. Maximizing farm is not only farming right then, it's setting it up so that you can farm a lane after going to do something else while losing as little as possible. Can you tell me roughly how you'd go about freezing the lane in that situation? I just googled lane freezing since I hadn't heard of it, and I think I get the concept in general, but not how you'd freeze it necessarily in all situations.. Would you kill like 1 wave and then tank the first few volleys and then let them aggro your wave?
you tank them just outside of turret range, and then you ONLY last hit, eventually the wave will freeze, and if youre stronger than your opponent(say a kill or two ahead) you can pretty much outfarm/level them by doing it
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Posting on an australian gaming forum, bunch of people trying to tell me ELO hell exists.
I enjoyed this particular gem: 'I found players at 1000 ELO are way less useful than players at 1300 ELO'
-__-
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On December 19 2012 16:04 Vei wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 15:36 Skithiryx wrote:On December 19 2012 15:15 Vei wrote:On December 19 2012 14:58 jadoth wrote:On December 19 2012 14:49 Vei wrote:
Hmm so the main point you're saying is keeping pushed a decent amount will prevent losses of creeps to your own tower, right? Or did I misunderstand? He is Saying if you clear a wave and get a lane pushing but it is pushing slowly then it will eat multiple enemy waves while on their side of the map were you cant go farm it, but if you have enough vision and pressure that you can take the time to clear a wave and then run up and kill the next wave as well it will push much faster so you lose less cs to your own creeps. so taking like two waves so you don't lose any while you b? this is about not losing creeps while b'ing and running back, or am i still misunderstanding? Kinda of Scenario 1 - You kill 1 wave of creeps, you then back to base and it slow pushes into the enemy tower eating 3-4 creep waves without which is cs you miss Scenario 2 - You kill 2-3 waves of creeps, you then back to base and it pushes alot faster into the enemy tower eatin 1-2 creep waves which you miss Scenarioa 3 - You kill 3-4 waves of creeps, you then back to base and the giant wave dies to the tower and takes maybe 1/2 of the wave with it. Ideally Scenario 3 is what you want everytime but thanks to ganks and enemy laners it may not happen that often. The best choice from there is Scenario 2 as you take the least amount of losses while still playing fairly safely. Ahhh I see.. now when you say killing these waves, is this like quantifiable in any other ways? Like, last hitting 3-4 waves compared to autoing them nonstop with support helping... and do you "often" have to go through their jungle, inbetween outer and inner turret, to farm another wave to make this effective? sorry for still not really understanding, although i think i kind of am now. basically: although pushing makes you vulnerable to jungle, it also saves enemy creep HP because your minions die to enemy tower instead of dmging them, so the more you push, the more enemy minion HP is conserved for you to last hit when you have to b and run back.
The concept is a lot like "freezing" a wave. When you are planning on freezing you leave 3-5 minions up. You do that because it means the enemy wave will always be stronger than your wave, and you need it to be otherwise you will naturally push as a result of last hits. The enemy wave will evaporate your wave very quickly, and the opposing laner will lose all the CS and EXP. Now, imagine the 1st tier towers are taken, so the lane is now very long. Lets say your side has the 3 minion advantage, with no intervention your wave will snowball this advantage into 6, 10, 12 etc minion advantages and just eat up the other side's wave until it hits the enemy tower (where it will damage the tower/die). When you are pushing town turrets elsewhere you want this to happen (you get free towers or you get a 4v5), but when you are farming you want the opposite to happen. You want the wave pushing towards you so the other team loses creeps and you lose few. The best way to get the wave to push to you is to push it to tower.
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I don't think you should ever not push creeps to tower after killing enemy laner. What wins lane isn't getting a kill but the CS you make enemy laner miss after. Making enemy laner miss 1-2 waves early basically kills the lane. Often it's worth it to stay and push if no one can help you even at the cost of dying to jungler. The absolute worst thing you can do is push it a little but not to tower. You can, however, go back when the lane is frozen.
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They fixed the interaction between homeguard boots and teleport. It now only gives the boost for the first 1 second after teleporting.
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On December 19 2012 17:15 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 16:04 Vei wrote:On December 19 2012 15:36 Skithiryx wrote:On December 19 2012 15:15 Vei wrote:On December 19 2012 14:58 jadoth wrote:On December 19 2012 14:49 Vei wrote:
Hmm so the main point you're saying is keeping pushed a decent amount will prevent losses of creeps to your own tower, right? Or did I misunderstand? He is Saying if you clear a wave and get a lane pushing but it is pushing slowly then it will eat multiple enemy waves while on their side of the map were you cant go farm it, but if you have enough vision and pressure that you can take the time to clear a wave and then run up and kill the next wave as well it will push much faster so you lose less cs to your own creeps. so taking like two waves so you don't lose any while you b? this is about not losing creeps while b'ing and running back, or am i still misunderstanding? Kinda of Scenario 1 - You kill 1 wave of creeps, you then back to base and it slow pushes into the enemy tower eating 3-4 creep waves without which is cs you miss Scenario 2 - You kill 2-3 waves of creeps, you then back to base and it pushes alot faster into the enemy tower eatin 1-2 creep waves which you miss Scenarioa 3 - You kill 3-4 waves of creeps, you then back to base and the giant wave dies to the tower and takes maybe 1/2 of the wave with it. Ideally Scenario 3 is what you want everytime but thanks to ganks and enemy laners it may not happen that often. The best choice from there is Scenario 2 as you take the least amount of losses while still playing fairly safely. Ahhh I see.. now when you say killing these waves, is this like quantifiable in any other ways? Like, last hitting 3-4 waves compared to autoing them nonstop with support helping... and do you "often" have to go through their jungle, inbetween outer and inner turret, to farm another wave to make this effective? sorry for still not really understanding, although i think i kind of am now. basically: although pushing makes you vulnerable to jungle, it also saves enemy creep HP because your minions die to enemy tower instead of dmging them, so the more you push, the more enemy minion HP is conserved for you to last hit when you have to b and run back. The concept is a lot like "freezing" a wave. When you are planning on freezing you leave 3-5 minions up. You do that because it means the enemy wave will always be stronger than your wave, and you need it to be otherwise you will naturally push as a result of last hits. The enemy wave will evaporate your wave very quickly, and the opposing laner will lose all the CS and EXP. Now, imagine the 1st tier towers are taken, so the lane is now very long. Lets say your side has the 3 minion advantage, with no intervention your wave will snowball this advantage into 6, 10, 12 etc minion advantages and just eat up the other side's wave until it hits the enemy tower (where it will damage the tower/die). When you are pushing town turrets elsewhere you want this to happen (you get free towers or you get a 4v5), but when you are farming you want the opposite to happen. You want the wave pushing towards you so the other team loses creeps and you lose few. The best way to get the wave to push to you is to push it to tower.
What I've been trying to learn is how to actually do this. I'm sort of a newb, but I play almost solely ADC. While I understand the concepts behind lane equilibrium (playing a lot of dota 2 teaches you such things), I really don't get how freezing works in LoL. In Dota 2, it's all about making sure the waves are even, which you do by attacking your own creeps. However, since you can't attack your own creeps in LoL, you have no control over your own push. You can't "let enemy minions live", because your creeps are killing them, you're just ignoring lasthits.
I realize that if you're "lucky", your opponent pushes too hard or whatever, your wave dies first and you can "tank" the damage of the enemy creeps until your wave shows up, but I don't see how you have any control over it yourself. If you're alone in a lane, it seems literally impossible to freeze it without completely missing last hits.
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On December 19 2012 18:03 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 17:15 cLutZ wrote:On December 19 2012 16:04 Vei wrote:On December 19 2012 15:36 Skithiryx wrote:On December 19 2012 15:15 Vei wrote:On December 19 2012 14:58 jadoth wrote:On December 19 2012 14:49 Vei wrote:
Hmm so the main point you're saying is keeping pushed a decent amount will prevent losses of creeps to your own tower, right? Or did I misunderstand? He is Saying if you clear a wave and get a lane pushing but it is pushing slowly then it will eat multiple enemy waves while on their side of the map were you cant go farm it, but if you have enough vision and pressure that you can take the time to clear a wave and then run up and kill the next wave as well it will push much faster so you lose less cs to your own creeps. so taking like two waves so you don't lose any while you b? this is about not losing creeps while b'ing and running back, or am i still misunderstanding? Kinda of Scenario 1 - You kill 1 wave of creeps, you then back to base and it slow pushes into the enemy tower eating 3-4 creep waves without which is cs you miss Scenario 2 - You kill 2-3 waves of creeps, you then back to base and it pushes alot faster into the enemy tower eatin 1-2 creep waves which you miss Scenarioa 3 - You kill 3-4 waves of creeps, you then back to base and the giant wave dies to the tower and takes maybe 1/2 of the wave with it. Ideally Scenario 3 is what you want everytime but thanks to ganks and enemy laners it may not happen that often. The best choice from there is Scenario 2 as you take the least amount of losses while still playing fairly safely. Ahhh I see.. now when you say killing these waves, is this like quantifiable in any other ways? Like, last hitting 3-4 waves compared to autoing them nonstop with support helping... and do you "often" have to go through their jungle, inbetween outer and inner turret, to farm another wave to make this effective? sorry for still not really understanding, although i think i kind of am now. basically: although pushing makes you vulnerable to jungle, it also saves enemy creep HP because your minions die to enemy tower instead of dmging them, so the more you push, the more enemy minion HP is conserved for you to last hit when you have to b and run back. The concept is a lot like "freezing" a wave. When you are planning on freezing you leave 3-5 minions up. You do that because it means the enemy wave will always be stronger than your wave, and you need it to be otherwise you will naturally push as a result of last hits. The enemy wave will evaporate your wave very quickly, and the opposing laner will lose all the CS and EXP. Now, imagine the 1st tier towers are taken, so the lane is now very long. Lets say your side has the 3 minion advantage, with no intervention your wave will snowball this advantage into 6, 10, 12 etc minion advantages and just eat up the other side's wave until it hits the enemy tower (where it will damage the tower/die). When you are pushing town turrets elsewhere you want this to happen (you get free towers or you get a 4v5), but when you are farming you want the opposite to happen. You want the wave pushing towards you so the other team loses creeps and you lose few. The best way to get the wave to push to you is to push it to tower. What I've been trying to learn is how to actually do this. I'm sort of a newb, but I play almost solely ADC. While I understand the concepts behind lane equilibrium (playing a lot of dota 2 teaches you such things), I really don't get how freezing works in LoL. In Dota 2, it's all about making sure the waves are even, which you do by attacking your own creeps. However, since you can't attack your own creeps in LoL, you have no control over your own push. You can't "let enemy minions live", because your creeps are killing them, you're just ignoring lasthits. I realize that if you're "lucky", your opponent pushes too hard or whatever, your wave dies first and you can "tank" the damage of the enemy creeps until your wave shows up, but I don't see how you have any control over it yourself. If you're alone in a lane, it seems literally impossible to freeze it without completely missing last hits.
You freeze the lane by tanking minions, and balance out your opponent's damage on minions.
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^ sufficiency means tanking minions so that they don't hit the tower and start reversing the push. tanking them doesn't do zip otherwise
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On December 19 2012 18:09 UniversalSnip wrote:
^ sufficiency means tanking minions so that they don't hit the tower and start reversing the push. tanking them doesn't do zip otherwise
Yeah that's what I meant. Thanks.
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EPT
