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On December 19 2012 12:47 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 12:38 Tooplark wrote:On December 19 2012 12:27 Two_DoWn wrote:
I still do. Level 2 ganks is mad strong, especially on anyone who can get a quick reposition (Voli or Singed), gap closer, or a decent enough amount of CC to allow for a good chunking. The problem with level 2 ganks as sejuani (and this was discussed a lot in the Mumu thread too) is that if your gank fails you're in a really bad position to continue jungling and even if it succeeds you'll still be in a much worse position than if you just went WQE and ganked at 3. Im not exactly sure why this would be the case. First, level 3 requires much more time than a level 2 gank, and puts you on the other side of the map (assuming blue side) by the time you hit level 3. Also, I dont think Ive ever been in a position where a level 2 gank has made it impossible for me to continue jungling. Assuming e-q on Sej, with either blue or red, you have enough damage to kill the 2 camps that lets you hit 3 anyway. Plus, as Smash would no doubt tell you, a level 2 gank destroys a top lane much harder than it hurts the jungler, especially now that you probably werent going to be carrying out of the jungle anyway. So ya, if you care to elaborate on your reasoning Im curious why you dont like level 2 ganks, especially given how strong they can be and the devastating effect it can have on the opponent, even if you dont get a kill. Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 12:46 HazMat wrote:On December 19 2012 12:27 Two_DoWn wrote:
I still do. Level 2 ganks is mad strong, especially on anyone who can get a quick reposition (Voli or Singed), gap closer, or a decent enough amount of CC to allow for a good chunking. Just go Shaco and level 3 gank at 2 minutes by doing both buffs at the same time. Thought they got rid of this a while ago.
Just a few things:
- Shaco double buff level 3 is back in Season 3.
- Depending on your route, you can hit level 3 at Wolves.
- It's not about it being impossible, but about it being significantly weaker as a result.
I like level 2 ganks myself, I just wanted to clarify things.
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On December 19 2012 12:41 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 11:54 Skithiryx wrote:On December 19 2012 04:36 Seuss wrote:On December 19 2012 04:02 sylverfyre wrote:On December 19 2012 02:59 mordek wrote:He just posted linkies a couple pages ago  I literally just updated my guide today, published a video, and posted about it on my blog. A few important pointers: - Wriggle's is terrible on Akali.
- Maxing E first is worthless the moment you leave the jungle.
- Full AD is utter nonsense.
- Spell Vamp Quints are bliss. Get them if you can (otherwise Diamond's Runes are fine, just not as safe).
Also, when your team has 2+ tanky champions there's no need to build tanky. Just go Gunblade -> DFG -> Lich Bane, be a little patient about how you enter fights, and shock yourself giddy when the enemy carries disappear in a puff of smoke. There's some factual errors, however, made in the guide though... + Show Spoiler [Spoilered for length.] +Errors:
You claim that scaling AP glyphs allow you to reach the AP you need at level 2 for bonus magic damage. (you need 19.5 AP to activate the autoattack magic damage passive on akali, not 9.5)
Math time!
0.17 * 9 * 2 (level 2) is 3.06 AP. 1AP/level (mastery) is 2 AP. 6 flat AP from mastery. I'm only counting 11.06 AP, +5% is 11.613. You aren't activating this passive until level 6 with scaling AP glyphs.
If you use flat AP glyphs, you're looking at 17.8 * 1.05 AP at level 1, 18.8*1.05 at level 2 - attaining the passive at level 2.
18.8*1.0375 (3 out of 4 points in archmage) lets you reach it at level 2. Barely.
Without Archmage, you can have it at level 3.
It's worth noting that contrary to what you wrote, Ignite CAN be used on jungle monsters, just not lane minions (At least according to the patch that modified ignite like this. I've ignited baron since then, but not normal or buff camps) - so it CAN speed up your jungle if you're willing to blow it.
If you ignite a mob at level 1, that's 5 free AP, granting you early access to the autoattack magic damage buff. (but it does neuter your ability to duel/gank someone with summoners up, and requires you to run ignite-smite, which can make it hard to survive later in the game)
My opinions:
1 - I may be too worried about getting Discipline of Force (the AP passive) early. Level 6 might be OK - it's worth like 8-9 damage then (depending on if you're hitting a person or a machete-10%applicable monster)
2- I don't like Archmage that much on Akali - you're not really stacking THAT much AP (no deathcap in sight, for example), 5% AP isn't doing a whole lot for you, especially in the early/midgame where you're busy building a gunblade / have ONLY a gunblade, and I think you do want to be activating the AP passive earlier than you are. Maybe I'm overvaluing it, though - it's worth ~6 autoattack damage at those early levels.
3 - What do you think about running 7 AD marks (all you need for the passive) and 2 hybrid pen marks? It's a really minor optimization though, and probably doesn't even help your clear speed, only your damage on champions.
Furthermore in the penetration front, how do you feel about an early-ish Haunting Guise (Let's say... after the revolver?)
Is the Gunblade too important to stall for some efficient earlygame stats?
4 - I feel like you may undervalue the utility Zhonya's and GA on assassins - (You recommend Zhonya only against AD heavy teams? Just cause it has a chainmail doesn't mean it's not good against AP!)
Either form of invulnerability can allow you to stall for cooldowns - which, when you have all that spell vamp, can allow you to fight your way through intense situations.
Edit: wow, I took so long to write this that I got mega-ninja'd.
Still, I want to try out Akali jungle, and I've been looking for an excuse to pick up vamp quints!
One more thing - I get the feeling 2% damage from havoc is better overall output than 3% CDR (going from 1/4 CDR to 4% CDR) Thanks for the catches, the AP error is an artifact of the recent updates. It should have read "Flat AP Glyphs", not "AP/Level Glyphs", but I somehow overlooked that (probably because I was working hastily over my lunch break). The moment I or someone else confirms that you're right about Ignite I'll fix it and be extremely excited (I love running Ignite on Jungle Akali, it works with her Spell Vamp). Points #1-#2: Archmage was what allowed the AP passive to activate at level 2. You're right to want the passive ASAP because it makes a significant difference in the jungle, especially early on. With Ignite, however, it's not necessary, so you could pick up both Havoc and Sorcery if that's your preference. #3: Why stop at 7? With Ignite you can get away with 2, or even 1 if you invest in the Deadliness mastery. Heck, you could go all MPen or Hybrid Marks and run 2 AD Seals for true shenanigans (In fact, I think I'll do just that if Ignite works as you say). #4: My experience with Akali post-Season 3 has been that building for survival is a circular feedback loop. You build survivability because you can't insta-kill the enemy carries, and you can't insta-kill the enemy carries because you built survivability. So far the only non-tanks that have outright survived my burst with Gunblade + DFG + Lich Bane have been BC stacking bruisers and Ryze, the former of which no longer exist. It's not bad to build some of these tankier items eventually, but first and foremost your objective is the quick elimination of the enemy carries. Finally, I like the CDR because it puts you at 39% with DFG and blue buff. Akali with 2.4 second Qs is craaaazy. Edit: The patch notes from v151 claim it is only usable on Champions, so unless it's outright wrong my reverie regarding Ignite may be for naught. Do you have any thoughts on any of the machete items or do you just tend to leave it as be. Been following your Jungle akali guide since S1 and my very first ranked game was Akali jungle, keep up the awesome work  I just sit on Machete until I need the slot for something else. It's pretty much unnecessary once you get Gunblade because at that point your sustain and damage are such that you can solo Dragon and exit at full health.
Do you do the same on Mundo? Machete till you need the slot? I've been looking at items building from it and none really seems to suit his needs (he could already rush tabi for power ganking people because his W gives tenacity). I'm not sure what to build though. I guess kindlegem and if you don't have to complete locket (or SV if you need MR), go for warmogs first. Aegis could be good but a core of warmogs/SV/randuin's or sunfire seems so strong on him now, every thing else would be luxury at that point.
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IMO Rengar had instant stealth, which in combination to his survivability made him broken. I think the newly added fade time is fair.
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is Static shiv better than PD? I just tried those ad carries that goes BTPDLW and replace PD with SS,the result wasnt so convicing at all.
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On December 19 2012 12:55 Alaric wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 12:41 Seuss wrote:On December 19 2012 11:54 Skithiryx wrote:On December 19 2012 04:36 Seuss wrote:On December 19 2012 04:02 sylverfyre wrote:On December 19 2012 02:59 mordek wrote:He just posted linkies a couple pages ago I literally just updated my guide today, published a video, and posted about it on my blog. A few important pointers: - Wriggle's is terrible on Akali.
- Maxing E first is worthless the moment you leave the jungle.
- Full AD is utter nonsense.
- Spell Vamp Quints are bliss. Get them if you can (otherwise Diamond's Runes are fine, just not as safe).
Also, when your team has 2+ tanky champions there's no need to build tanky. Just go Gunblade -> DFG -> Lich Bane, be a little patient about how you enter fights, and shock yourself giddy when the enemy carries disappear in a puff of smoke. There's some factual errors, however, made in the guide though... + Show Spoiler [Spoilered for length.] +Errors:
You claim that scaling AP glyphs allow you to reach the AP you need at level 2 for bonus magic damage. (you need 19.5 AP to activate the autoattack magic damage passive on akali, not 9.5)
Math time!
0.17 * 9 * 2 (level 2) is 3.06 AP. 1AP/level (mastery) is 2 AP. 6 flat AP from mastery. I'm only counting 11.06 AP, +5% is 11.613. You aren't activating this passive until level 6 with scaling AP glyphs.
If you use flat AP glyphs, you're looking at 17.8 * 1.05 AP at level 1, 18.8*1.05 at level 2 - attaining the passive at level 2.
18.8*1.0375 (3 out of 4 points in archmage) lets you reach it at level 2. Barely.
Without Archmage, you can have it at level 3.
It's worth noting that contrary to what you wrote, Ignite CAN be used on jungle monsters, just not lane minions (At least according to the patch that modified ignite like this. I've ignited baron since then, but not normal or buff camps) - so it CAN speed up your jungle if you're willing to blow it.
If you ignite a mob at level 1, that's 5 free AP, granting you early access to the autoattack magic damage buff. (but it does neuter your ability to duel/gank someone with summoners up, and requires you to run ignite-smite, which can make it hard to survive later in the game)
My opinions:
1 - I may be too worried about getting Discipline of Force (the AP passive) early. Level 6 might be OK - it's worth like 8-9 damage then (depending on if you're hitting a person or a machete-10%applicable monster)
2- I don't like Archmage that much on Akali - you're not really stacking THAT much AP (no deathcap in sight, for example), 5% AP isn't doing a whole lot for you, especially in the early/midgame where you're busy building a gunblade / have ONLY a gunblade, and I think you do want to be activating the AP passive earlier than you are. Maybe I'm overvaluing it, though - it's worth ~6 autoattack damage at those early levels.
3 - What do you think about running 7 AD marks (all you need for the passive) and 2 hybrid pen marks? It's a really minor optimization though, and probably doesn't even help your clear speed, only your damage on champions.
Furthermore in the penetration front, how do you feel about an early-ish Haunting Guise (Let's say... after the revolver?)
Is the Gunblade too important to stall for some efficient earlygame stats?
4 - I feel like you may undervalue the utility Zhonya's and GA on assassins - (You recommend Zhonya only against AD heavy teams? Just cause it has a chainmail doesn't mean it's not good against AP!)
Either form of invulnerability can allow you to stall for cooldowns - which, when you have all that spell vamp, can allow you to fight your way through intense situations.
Edit: wow, I took so long to write this that I got mega-ninja'd.
Still, I want to try out Akali jungle, and I've been looking for an excuse to pick up vamp quints!
One more thing - I get the feeling 2% damage from havoc is better overall output than 3% CDR (going from 1/4 CDR to 4% CDR) Thanks for the catches, the AP error is an artifact of the recent updates. It should have read "Flat AP Glyphs", not "AP/Level Glyphs", but I somehow overlooked that (probably because I was working hastily over my lunch break). The moment I or someone else confirms that you're right about Ignite I'll fix it and be extremely excited (I love running Ignite on Jungle Akali, it works with her Spell Vamp). Points #1-#2: Archmage was what allowed the AP passive to activate at level 2. You're right to want the passive ASAP because it makes a significant difference in the jungle, especially early on. With Ignite, however, it's not necessary, so you could pick up both Havoc and Sorcery if that's your preference. #3: Why stop at 7? With Ignite you can get away with 2, or even 1 if you invest in the Deadliness mastery. Heck, you could go all MPen or Hybrid Marks and run 2 AD Seals for true shenanigans (In fact, I think I'll do just that if Ignite works as you say). #4: My experience with Akali post-Season 3 has been that building for survival is a circular feedback loop. You build survivability because you can't insta-kill the enemy carries, and you can't insta-kill the enemy carries because you built survivability. So far the only non-tanks that have outright survived my burst with Gunblade + DFG + Lich Bane have been BC stacking bruisers and Ryze, the former of which no longer exist. It's not bad to build some of these tankier items eventually, but first and foremost your objective is the quick elimination of the enemy carries. Finally, I like the CDR because it puts you at 39% with DFG and blue buff. Akali with 2.4 second Qs is craaaazy. Edit: The patch notes from v151 claim it is only usable on Champions, so unless it's outright wrong my reverie regarding Ignite may be for naught. Do you have any thoughts on any of the machete items or do you just tend to leave it as be. Been following your Jungle akali guide since S1 and my very first ranked game was Akali jungle, keep up the awesome work I just sit on Machete until I need the slot for something else. It's pretty much unnecessary once you get Gunblade because at that point your sustain and damage are such that you can solo Dragon and exit at full health. Do you do the same on Mundo? Machete till you need the slot? I've been looking at items building from it and none really seems to suit his needs (he could already rush tabi for power ganking people because his W gives tenacity). I'm not sure what to build though. I guess kindlegem and if you don't have to complete locket (or SV if you need MR), go for warmogs first. Aegis could be good but a core of warmogs/SV/randuin's or sunfire seems so strong on him now, every thing else would be luxury at that point.
Spirit of the Ancient Golem is nice on Mundo, it's just not a priority. It does stack, multiplicatively, with W.
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Shiv doesn't scale as well, but gives you better dps in the earlier stages (ie when you only have that item, or a BF item with it), especially when you get to kite and/or you hit multiple people with the proc.
TOO going swifties homeguard on Hecarim. Instantaneously gained 60+ AD. TP homeguard Hec stronk too I guess.
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On December 19 2012 08:40 NeoIllusions wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 08:33 Sufficiency wrote:
High Noon Twisted Fate is the best TF skin. Who cares about MTF. PAX aside, I think Swashbuckler TF is pretty gud. jiji uses Underworld nowadays. ;o
the musketeer one? sux dick, I got it refunded after remake. default best now
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On December 19 2012 13:11 justiceknight wrote:
is Static shiv better than PD? I just tried those ad carries that goes BTPDLW and replace PD with SS,the result wasnt so convicing at all.
Only on ADs with crap pushing power, like Ashe.
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On December 19 2012 13:16 Alaric wrote:Shiv doesn't scale as well, but gives you better dps in the earlier stages (ie when you only have that item, or a BF item with it), especially when you get to kite and/or you hit multiple people with the proc. TOO going swifties homeguard on Hecarim. Instantaneously gained 60+ AD. TP homeguard Hec stronk too I guess.
Why doesn't it scale well? You know it can crit right? I mean, it does't give quite as much crit or aspd as PD, so I guess maximum slot efficiency PD might barely win out endgame. :|
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On December 19 2012 13:25 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 13:11 justiceknight wrote:
is Static shiv better than PD? I just tried those ad carries that goes BTPDLW and replace PD with SS,the result wasnt so convicing at all. Only on ADs with crap pushing power, like Ashe.
wait wat, ashe has bad pushing with volley?
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It's important for single target dps. Also no collision passive.
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United States47024 Posts
On December 19 2012 13:26 Inschato wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 13:16 Alaric wrote:Shiv doesn't scale as well, but gives you better dps in the earlier stages (ie when you only have that item, or a BF item with it), especially when you get to kite and/or you hit multiple people with the proc. TOO going swifties homeguard on Hecarim. Instantaneously gained 60+ AD. TP homeguard Hec stronk too I guess. Why doesn't it scale well? You know it can crit right? I mean, it does't give quite as much crit or aspd as PD, so I guess maximum slot efficiency PD might barely win out endgame. :|
Because it's a magic damage proc, and you typically get no magic penetration on AD champs, meaning it's damage-dealing ability drops off very heavily in the face of higher MR values.
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So how do you deal with a team that won't listen to you? I may have earned myself another ban for listening to them about as much as they listen to me
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On December 19 2012 13:48 Phrost wrote:
So how do you deal with a team that won't listen to you? I may have earned myself another ban for listening to them about as much as they listen to me
Maybe you shouldn't yell at them for stupid shit? I played with someone I assume was you when I first picked up the game and you absolutely flipped out at me for not suiciding to save you when you got caught. It was literally years ago and I still remember you because you were such an ass over nothing. If you don't save your rage for crucial moments people will ignore you as a matter of course because they see your emotional intensity isn't directly proportional to the importance of the situation.
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Woah. That was a deep emotional scar that was just brought to light.
May USnip find peace now that his anger and shame is no longer eating at the dark recesses of his heart.
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Well, he wanted advice, lol. If you wanna know how to get your team to listen to you the above kind of helps.
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Shiv on Ezreal is pretty OP. Lightning poke nonstop.
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On December 19 2012 14:02 UniversalSnip wrote:
Well, he wanted advice, lol. If you wanna know how to get your team to listen to you that kind of helps.
Yo remember when my Eve went afk and I said she went afk but then she came back and killed you and you blamed me for lying about her being afk?
I REMEMBER.
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You need to set it up from the beginning of the game that you know what you're doing and have control over the flow of the game. If you're just telling people what to do after a bad play you come off as a petty person who just does stuff, instead of someone with a plan.
Sometimes it's easier to just let people lose by making poor decisions. It doesn't make you right, but it does make them wrong.
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Look, all I'm saying is that I write down literally every word any of you says and someday I'm going to blackmail you via your girlfriends with it. I'm not weird.
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EPT
