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On January 11 2013 00:55 jcarlsoniv wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2013 00:49 Alaric wrote:On January 10 2013 21:53 necrosed wrote:
I find that Swain mid is really good against this meta of AD casters. I use one of my "top" pages, AD/armor/MR/armor, take E at level 1 then proceed to right-click them to death while kiting. When they start long sword+2 expecting a kill at level 2-3 they tend to back pretty quickly. (Then I fail at last-hitting while they have AoE clearing spells so it doesn't matter.) What masteries you run?
Always 9-0-21, never not 9-0-21. I guess if I ran a 21 offensive setup I'd forgo some stuff (say, garbage mental force) for butcher (poor Swain really needs it) and brute force. Spellsword wouldn't help in those early levels + I only have AP from Blast (per level mastery to unlock %MPen) so it's not worth it.
Speaking of 9-0-21, I wanted it to have the 10% cdr and MS and "abuse" some stuff like summoners cdr, but since most solo laners (at least mid) put 9+ points in utility they have it too. I'm wondering if I should try dumping the engineer and biscuiteer points in favor of Awareness, so I can try and reach key levels (2 for Swain, 3 for Viktor, 6 for a lot of mids) before my lane opponent reliably and abuse them as you can do top with champs such as Jarvan and Xin.
There's probably math involved so I can know how many minions I "save" by putting 3-4 points in awareness and if it's worth doing, I should check the wiki for exp numbers.
On January 11 2013 01:27 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2013 17:02 TheYango wrote:
I do think the sieging ability of a ranged carry is a significant factor.
At this point, the game doesn't really have a safe alternative to that for pushing high ground towers (split-pushing base towers is inherently slow, risky, and not what I'd call safe). This is especially the case insofar as LoL, unlike DotA, does not have casters that can siege towers well, nor does it have many sieging items that help a team's creep wave push the high ground (though the potential of Banner in this type of situation is worth exploring), or allow a melee to siege like a ranged carry does (Manta Style).
There is a LOT of merit in the fact that a ranged carry allows you to safely end a game without having to resort to diving or exposing yourself to 4v5s. I would agree it's a significant factor, but I think there are a number of champions who can work around that issue without needing to be or build like an AD carry. Jayce, Nidalee, Elise, and Kayle are four who stand out. All four can be played in various lanes/roles depending on the needs of your team composition, and all four can have the damage and range to siege turrets without having to build like an AD carry. They may not fit into every team composition, but they can fulfill the same sieging role. There are also plenty of AP champions who have the attack range to do some sieging. Anivia, Annie, Ziggs, Zilean, and Zyra all have attack ranges of 575 or more, and have plenty to bring to a siege, to a teamfight, or both. Another 10 AP champions (excluding Elise) have 550 range. With either Lich Bane or simply lots of AP they can still poke down towers. They may not be as good at taking towers as AD carries, but you will still be able to whittle down a tower without committing to a dive. This is all really just the tip of the iceberg, as team composition theory is a complicated and labyrinthine subject. However, I think it's fairly clear that there are ways around having an AD carry which don't involve split-pushing, diving, or taking every single baron/dragon while the enemy team sits in their trenches.
I was around before Sivir's rework, and even though I never got to see a properly farmed one doing her stuff I'm curious about how powerful pushers like her, who apparently was built pretty tanky because of her range while relying on lifesteal and her W to survive while dealing damage, could be used now. I mean if you've got a champ tanky enough to have bruiser-like survivability while being ranged and having powerful pushing/towerkilling abilities (I really like her ult to "snipe" towers at every opportunity by lowering the time required to kill them for your whole team and giving MS to rush/disengage), maybe they could be used against diver-heavy comps or assassins relying on sniping your "sieging" champion.
How good was she at surviving focus when she had 300-400 range or so and built as a pusher?
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You stacked bloodthirsters as Sivir and prayed to god they never killed you. If it worked, it was amazing. If not, not so great.
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United States10536 Posts
On January 11 2013 01:35 Alaric wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2013 00:55 jcarlsoniv wrote:On January 11 2013 00:49 Alaric wrote:On January 10 2013 21:53 necrosed wrote:
I find that Swain mid is really good against this meta of AD casters. I use one of my "top" pages, AD/armor/MR/armor, take E at level 1 then proceed to right-click them to death while kiting. When they start long sword+2 expecting a kill at level 2-3 they tend to back pretty quickly. (Then I fail at last-hitting while they have AoE clearing spells so it doesn't matter.) What masteries you run? Always 9-0-21, never not 9-0-21. I guess if I ran a 21 offensive setup I'd forgo some stuff (say, garbage mental force) for butcher (poor Swain really needs it) and brute force. Spellsword wouldn't help in those early levels + I only have AP from Blast (per level mastery to unlock %MPen) so it's not worth it. Show nested quote +On January 11 2013 01:27 Seuss wrote:On January 10 2013 17:02 TheYango wrote:
I do think the sieging ability of a ranged carry is a significant factor.
At this point, the game doesn't really have a safe alternative to that for pushing high ground towers (split-pushing base towers is inherently slow, risky, and not what I'd call safe). This is especially the case insofar as LoL, unlike DotA, does not have casters that can siege towers well, nor does it have many sieging items that help a team's creep wave push the high ground (though the potential of Banner in this type of situation is worth exploring), or allow a melee to siege like a ranged carry does (Manta Style).
There is a LOT of merit in the fact that a ranged carry allows you to safely end a game without having to resort to diving or exposing yourself to 4v5s. I would agree it's a significant factor, but I think there are a number of champions who can work around that issue without needing to be or build like an AD carry. Jayce, Nidalee, Elise, and Kayle are four who stand out. All four can be played in various lanes/roles depending on the needs of your team composition, and all four can have the damage and range to siege turrets without having to build like an AD carry. They may not fit into every team composition, but they can fulfill the same sieging role. There are also plenty of AP champions who have the attack range to do some sieging. Anivia, Annie, Ziggs, Zilean, and Zyra all have attack ranges of 575 or more, and have plenty to bring to a siege, to a teamfight, or both. Another 10 AP champions (excluding Elise) have 550 range. With either Lich Bane or simply lots of AP they can still poke down towers. They may not be as good at taking towers as AD carries, but you will still be able to whittle down a tower without committing to a dive. This is all really just the tip of the iceberg, as team composition theory is a complicated and labyrinthine subject. However, I think it's fairly clear that there are ways around having an AD carry which don't involve split-pushing, diving, or taking every single baron/dragon while the enemy team sits in their trenches. I was around before Sivir's rework, and even though I never got to see a properly farmed one doing her stuff I'm curious about how powerful pushers like her, who apparently was built pretty tanky because of her range while relying on lifesteal and her W to survive while dealing damage, could be used now. I mean if you've got a champ tanky enough to have bruiser-like survivability while being ranged and having powerful pushing/towerkilling abilities (I really like her ult to "snipe" towers at every opportunity by lowering the time required to kill them for your whole team and giving MS to rush/disengage), maybe they could be used against diver-heavy comps or assassins relying on sniping your "sieging" champion. How good was she at surviving focus when she had 300-400 range or so and built as a pusher?
A lot of her survivability was the interaction between her old W and BT. You'd build BTs, Warmog's/GA, and still do a ton of damage in a team fight because of all the bounces, which would in turn heal you a lot.
The rework broke the build. Going from ricochets on every auto-attack to every 3 seconds is a big deal, especially when your ultimate is an attack speed steroid.
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Yeah, I knew about the rework and how BT was the core-est item on her because she used the on-hit on ricochet to heal a ton (and reach squishies by hitting the tanks in front), I was just wondering how tanky such a build would truely make her since we're discussing "Are AD carries UP in a possible assassin meta?" and "How can you work around not having a ranged autoattacker if double bruiser meta develops against assassins?" a lot.
We have Urgot in the "short-ranged but tanky" department, but his autoattacks lack punch and he doesn't have the huge AS steroid Sivir used to have either (I think it was 30/60/90% AS and a third to her team pre-rework? Now it's 30/45/60 and half to her team). Maybe we could see more champions designed around that. Sure, they wouldn't have much success in most of s2 meta, but they would have merits simply by existing.
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It's really hard for me to see how 9/0/21 is better than 21/0/9 for AP mids and I'd like somebody to explain it to me.
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I've been a sucker for MS and CDR since I started league (my first homebrew Irelia build was triforce/ghostblade/shurelya/randuin's/mercs/FoN...) and I don't really like the masteries in offense past 12 points (mental force is trash, archmage doesn't give much until you get your first 2 items—or use AP runes, which I rarely do—, Havoc is kinda weak early on and Executioner doesn't mesh too well with AoE initiator or softening/poking mages).
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I agree with Alaric but that could just be from my tendency to play pos 5 in dota so value prolonging engagements to do more than just having more upfront damage. It just makes sense to me for someone to prioritise doing more than just having more front loaded damage in S3 with all the tankiness. Mages seem to be more for utility now with assassins being so strong on the damage part. That being said I'm by no means a good league player :D
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On January 11 2013 02:01 Ketara wrote:
It's really hard for me to see how 9/0/21 is better than 21/0/9 for AP mids and I'd like somebody to explain it to me.
it really depends on the champion and how you want to play them
good 9/0/21'ers are karthus/ori/anivia/ryze/vlad/kennen
whereas if you go 9/0/21 on someone like ahri/akali/syndra/veigar/zyra/leblanc you're selling yourself short
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On January 11 2013 02:12 Dusty wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2013 02:01 Ketara wrote:
It's really hard for me to see how 9/0/21 is better than 21/0/9 for AP mids and I'd like somebody to explain it to me. it really depends on the champion and how you want to play them good 9/0/21'ers are karthus/ori/anivia/ryze/vlad/kennen whereas if you go 9/0/21 on someone like ahri/akali/syndra/veigar/zyra/leblanc you're selling yourself short
I go 9/0/21 on Zyra and even Viktor. Almost all my mids I got 21 utility cuz it's just so damn good. Top tier offense is really good too, but there are so many wasted points on the way to get there.
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But why is 9/0/21 so good?
It's easy for me to understand if you need the GP10 mastery points, which seems to me to be what the entire support tree revolves around.
The 6% CDR makes little sense to me on mids who should be given blue buffs, meaning that that extra 6% will often be taking them over the cap. Makes more sense I suppose on mids with no mana.
Really I feel like all you're getting from utility is the movespeed and the 3% spell vamp.
The only offense mastery that looks like a waste to me really is mental force.
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On January 11 2013 02:22 Ketara wrote:
But why is 9/0/21 so good?
It's easy for me to understand if you need the GP10 mastery points, which seems to me to be what the entire support tree revolves around.
The 6% CDR makes little sense to me on mids who should be given blue buffs, meaning that that extra 6% will often be taking them over the cap.
Really I feel like all you're getting from utility is the movespeed and the 3% spell vamp.
The only offense mastery that looks like a waste to me really is mental force.
Mana regen, summonder cooldown reduction, 10% CDR (4 in offense, 6 in utility), spell vamp, I love me a biscuiteer, Awareness (getting lvl 6 that little bit faster makes a HUGE difference on a lot of mids), Buff duration, 3% move speed.
For someone like me, that 10% CDR makes my early/mid game so strong. I spam the fuck out of blue pots, plus blue buff, and mastery, that's 40% CDR very very early. Sure, later game it falls off a bit if you're building a lot of things with CDR, but one certain champs, you just don't. Example: I rarely build any CDR on Viktor because I have 40% CDR pretty much from lvl 7-9 onward.
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On January 11 2013 02:22 Ketara wrote:
But why is 9/0/21 so good?
It's easy for me to understand if you need the GP10 mastery points, which seems to me to be what the entire support tree revolves around.
The 6% CDR makes little sense to me on mids who should be given blue buffs, meaning that that extra 6% will often be taking them over the cap. Makes more sense I suppose on mids with no mana.
Really I feel like all you're getting from utility is the movespeed and the 3% spell vamp.
The only offense mastery that looks like a waste to me really is mental force.
Sometimes it's better to have utility and secondary stats than straight damage. You should know well, Mr. "I don't build damage items until 20 minutes into the game". 
In fact, I'd wager that 9/0/21 would fit better with your playstyle if you're just going to sit on Chalice/Sightstone for a long time.
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darius/xin/anybody is such a bs team in 3v3.
goddamn.
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On January 11 2013 02:21 jcarlsoniv wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2013 02:12 Dusty wrote:On January 11 2013 02:01 Ketara wrote:
It's really hard for me to see how 9/0/21 is better than 21/0/9 for AP mids and I'd like somebody to explain it to me. it really depends on the champion and how you want to play them good 9/0/21'ers are karthus/ori/anivia/ryze/vlad/kennen whereas if you go 9/0/21 on someone like ahri/akali/syndra/veigar/zyra/leblanc you're selling yourself short I go 9/0/21 on Zyra and even Viktor. Almost all my mids I got 21 utility cuz it's just so damn good. Top tier offense is really good too, but there are so many wasted points on the way to get there.
This.
At the start of s3 I thought "Utility is super good again, I might want to put more points there, but then again, offense... " then I looked at the offense tree and it seemed the worst of the 3, to the point that I found it disappointing, so Utility became generally better in my views.
I also tend to build sub-optimally regarding CDR because I never assume I'm going to have blue buff. Its uptime is sub-100%, it may get stolen, we may get forced to fight before I have a chance to fetch it, I may die and we fight again before it respawns... so having 6% more CDR is a big thing to me (and as I said I'm a sucker for that stat, casting abilities is "fun" to me). 9-0-21 allows a level 9 Ryze with FH (which is core on him, at least glacial is) to have 40% cdr even without blue buff, it also means you get to 40% if you build grail+DFG (I do it on Syndra, I could see it on Swain too), and it allows you to have mp5 + summoner cdr + mana masteries if you play spammy champs (10 mana/level ain't too much, but it helps), which Viktor, Syndra (and Swain when you last hit as badly as me) are.
I also rely a lot on MS for several of those champs, esp. those without escapes (Swain and Viktor rely heavily on getting into that 600 range to bully people in lane, which is less than a ton of champs' range, Ryze repositions so much MS is great on him, Orianna likes it so she can auto harass more in lane, I'm pretty bad at Syndra so it's a crutch to get in range more easily, etc.) so the 21th point is really good too, especially with the "2% out of combat MS" having the "out of combat" clause which I find rather bad.
I also use biscuiteer (trade a lot, pop biscuit+flask when both of you are low on mana and suddenly you can trade while they can't retaliate, giving you the edge) and engineer, but I haven't tried playing without it yet so I don't know how much of an impact those 7.5 seconds have on zhonya or DFG (more useful on DFG I reckon), and even then I mentioned trying exp. masteries so I can hit key levels first and all-in/bully my opponent.
...
Also yeah, as Soniv said blue buff+those masteries+blue pot = 40% cdr. I should buy blue pots on Viktor so much more, that makes sense especially with his midgame being weaker with a nerfed rabbadon. o_o
Btw Soniv, thoughts on Viktor's laning? His really strong levels 1 and 3 seem "nerfed" to me by the flask opening, the same way Kassadin is "buffed" by it: you can't shoot your opponent out of lane by level 4 as easily so you lose a lot of your lane bully status, and you have to resort to farm/poke mode earlier (which flask admittedly makes easier with mana regen).
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On January 11 2013 02:55 Alaric wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2013 02:21 jcarlsoniv wrote:On January 11 2013 02:12 Dusty wrote:On January 11 2013 02:01 Ketara wrote:
It's really hard for me to see how 9/0/21 is better than 21/0/9 for AP mids and I'd like somebody to explain it to me. it really depends on the champion and how you want to play them good 9/0/21'ers are karthus/ori/anivia/ryze/vlad/kennen whereas if you go 9/0/21 on someone like ahri/akali/syndra/veigar/zyra/leblanc you're selling yourself short I go 9/0/21 on Zyra and even Viktor. Almost all my mids I got 21 utility cuz it's just so damn good. Top tier offense is really good too, but there are so many wasted points on the way to get there. This. At the start of s3 I thought "Utility is super good again, I might want to put more points there, but then again, offense... " then I looked at the offense tree and it seemed the worst of the 3, to the point that I found it disappointing, so Utility became generally better in my views. I also tend to build sub-optimally regarding CDR because I never assume I'm going to have blue buff. Its uptime is sub-100%, it may get stolen, we may get forced to fight before I have a chance to fetch it, I may die and we fight again before it respawns... so having 6% more CDR is a big thing to me (and as I said I'm a sucker for that stat, casting abilities is "fun" to me). 9-0-21 allows a level 9 Ryze with FH (which is core on him, at least glacial is) to have 40% cdr even without blue buff, it also means you get to 40% if you build grail+DFG (I do it on Syndra, I could see it on Swain too), and it allows you to have mp5 + summoner cdr + mana masteries if you play spammy champs (10 mana/level ain't too much, but it helps), which Viktor, Syndra (and Swain when you last hit as badly as me) are. I also rely a lot on MS for several of those champs, esp. those without escapes (Swain and Viktor rely heavily on getting into that 600 range to bully people in lane, which is less than a ton of champs' range, Ryze repositions so much MS is great on him, Orianna likes it so she can auto harass more in lane, I'm pretty bad at Syndra so it's a crutch to get in range more easily, etc.) so the 21th point is really good too, especially with the "2% out of combat MS" having the "out of combat" clause which I find rather bad. I also use biscuiteer (trade a lot, pop biscuit+flask when both of you are low on mana and suddenly you can trade while they can't retaliate, giving you the edge) and engineer, but I haven't tried playing without it yet so I don't know how much of an impact those 7.5 seconds have on zhonya or DFG (more useful on DFG I reckon), and even then I mentioned trying exp. masteries so I can hit key levels first and all-in/bully my opponent. ... Also yeah, as Soniv said blue buff+those masteries+blue pot = 40% cdr. I should buy blue pots on Viktor so much more, that makes sense especially with his midgame being weaker with a nerfed rabbadon. o_o Btw Soniv, thoughts on Viktor's laning? His really strong levels 1 and 3 seem "nerfed" to me by the flask opening, the same way Kassadin is "buffed" by it: you can't shoot your opponent out of lane by level 4 as easily so you lose a lot of your lane bully status, and you have to resort to farm/poke mode earlier (which flask admittedly makes easier with mana regen).
100% Viktor was nerfed by flask start. I said it before, I'll say it again. Flask makes it so hard for a lot of mids to punish assassins such as Kassadin pre 6 before they have the power to fight back (or to just bully people early in general).
I've been experimenting with different openings for Viktor because of it. I kinda like Flask + pots + wards, and rushing Augment, but it's just not the same as it used to be. I'm very uncomfortable with it, and as a result, I don't win my lane as quickly or as often as I used to. Idk, just gotta figure it out.
The rest of his game is essentially the same, it's just that his bully power in lane isn't what it used to be.
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Butcher, Spellblade, and Executioner are all beautiful to help the shitty last hitting abilities of most mages, though. (Even with only AP quints, spellblade is adding almost 2 damage to autos - better than brute force!
Mental force really isn't that bad anymore, now that it's 2 AP per point rather than 1. That's noticable early game.
I guess 3% spell vamp / biscuit / ghost ward have their value, but it's hard to stand by some of these bonuses which don't really accomplish early game pressure or safety.
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Butcher is the mastery I miss the most when I go 9-0-21, especially since the tier swapping doesn't let me take it if I want all the cdr.
I don't value spellvamp that much btw, I take it just to see if it has an effect, but unless you're nuking whole waves down 3% isn't that much.
(Morgana felt way less sustainy with all the low mana costs champs that were released over last year, and the flask openings so everybody heals more than her spellvamp btw.)
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United States47024 Posts
On January 11 2013 02:22 Ketara wrote:
The 6% CDR makes little sense to me on mids who should be given blue buffs, meaning that that extra 6% will often be taking them over the cap. Makes more sense I suppose on mids with no mana.
Blue buff is flat 20%, 6% CDR doesn't over-cap you unless you somehow have more than 14% from other sources. This is exactly covered by blue elixir and 4% from offensive.
Note that this season the over-capping issue from utility is much less than last season because the CDR itemization is much less appealing. Grail got nerfed and DFG got reworked, so it's not always the case that an AP is going to end up with itemized CDR.
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What shall i gonna buy next? Syndra or Xerath or Viktor for AP mid!
Myself think that syndra is hidden OP
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On January 11 2013 03:16 ExoFun wrote:
What shall i gonna buy next? Syndra or Xerath or Viktor for AP mid!
Myself think that syndra is hidden OP
Well you're on TL, so the automatic answer is viktor
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EPT
