EPT[Patch 1.0.0.153: Preseason Balance Update 1] GD - Page 30
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Louuster
Canada2869 Posts
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Simberto
Germany12070 Posts
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onlywonderboy
United States23745 Posts
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obesechicken13
United States10467 Posts
Now it has a longer range, worse build path, less base damage, no scaling off AP, costs more, provides less gold in stats, and has damage amplification. I don't think it's possible for the new DFG to provide more burst. Even assuming you 100-0 someone using the damage multiplication, the old DFG would have let you do the same thing since the bonus 20% damage can only apply on 85+% of your opponent's remaining life. Even after the range got buffed on DFG, I find that I still get within 600 range before I fire off DFG just so I can get my other skills and ignite off. So DFG got nerfed in every meaningful way. Now DFG is in a spot where it's not worthy of a first buy, and isn't vital on every AP. I'm definitely not going to build it as much. I tried getting chalice on Veigar yesterday with mana regen runes, and I found that pre level 9 I had enough mana to constantly spam Q. Veigar's Q doesn't cost very much, or have a shorter cooldown until higher levels. I think I'll be going for chalice first in the future. The only problem is that Veigar can't push lanes so against anyone with a waveclear, I'd have been helpless to stop roaming. It's just an example, where, if I see my lane opponent is an Annie and also can't push, I'd consider picking Veigar, and not build DFG first. Veigar's Q passive gives too much free stats. I think since for months deathcap was the goto first item on every AP, and most people even argued to go deathcap before DFG on Veigar in the Veigar thread, that there's a lot that this community doesn't know. Deathcap never got nerfed. But DFG and abyssal did. Also it's really cool how a lot of items are no longer cost efficient in stats but provide a good active. DFG GA Mogs and shard of true ice being examples. I think this DoTA style is way better than just selling stats since it means that players have more chance of coming back if they use their items well. | ||
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onlywonderboy
United States23745 Posts
On December 16 2012 03:21 obesechicken13 wrote: I think DFG's actually a lot weaker now. It was way stronger before when it did 30+% health (or flat base) in damage. Now it has a longer range, worse build path, less base damage, no scaling off AP, costs more, provides less gold in stats, and has damage amplification. I don't think it's possible for the new DFG to provide more burst. Even assuming you 100-0 someone using the damage multiplication, the old DFG would have let you do the same thing since the bonus 20% damage can only apply on 85+% of your opponent's remaining life. Even after the range got buffed on DFG, I find that I still get within 600 range before I fire off DFG just so I can get my other skills and ignite off. So DFG got nerfed in every meaningful way. Now DFG is in a spot where it's not worthy of a first buy, and isn't vital on every AP. I'm definitely not going to build it as much. I tried getting chalice on Veigar yesterday with mana regen runes, and I found that pre level 9 I had enough mana to constantly spam Q. Veigar's Q doesn't cost very much, or have a shorter cooldown until higher levels. I think I'll be going for chalice first in the future. The only problem is that Veigar can't push lanes so against anyone with a waveclear, I'd have been helpless to stop roaming. It's just an example, where, if I see my lane opponent is an Annie and also can't push, I'd consider picking Veigar, and not build DFG first. Veigar's Q passive gives too much free stats. I think since for months deathcap was the goto first item on every AP, and most people even argued to go deathcap before DFG on Veigar in the Veigar thread, that there's a lot that this community doesn't know. Deathcap never got nerfed. But DFG and abyssal did. I don't think being weaker than a broken iteration of the item is inherently bad. You won't buy it on every champ, but it is still incredibly strong on the ones who can utilize the damage amplification with quick burst spells. I think it serves it's purpose, but isn't a must buy on every champ (which I think is a good thing, if there's an item that every champ is going to rush or buy 2nd it is probably too strong) | ||
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Perplex
United States1693 Posts
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zer0das
United States8519 Posts
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NEOtheONE
United States2233 Posts
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
On December 16 2012 03:21 obesechicken13 wrote: I think DFG's actually a lot weaker now. It was way stronger before when it did 30+% health (or flat base) in damage. Now it has a longer range, worse build path, less base damage, no scaling off AP, costs more, provides less gold in stats, and has damage amplification. I don't think it's possible for the new DFG to provide more burst. Even assuming you 100-0 someone using the damage multiplication, the old DFG would have let you do the same thing since the bonus 20% damage can only apply on 85+% of your opponent's remaining life. + Show Spoiler [Spoilered for brevity.] + Even after the range got buffed on DFG, I find that I still get within 600 range before I fire off DFG just so I can get my other skills and ignite off. So DFG got nerfed in every meaningful way. Now DFG is in a spot where it's not worthy of a first buy, and isn't vital on every AP. I'm definitely not going to build it as much. I tried getting chalice on Veigar yesterday with mana regen runes, and I found that pre level 9 I had enough mana to constantly spam Q. Veigar's Q doesn't cost very much, or have a shorter cooldown until higher levels. I think I'll be going for chalice first in the future. The only problem is that Veigar can't push lanes so against anyone with a waveclear, I'd have been helpless to stop roaming. It's just an example, where, if I see my lane opponent is an Annie and also can't push, I'd consider picking Veigar, and not build DFG first. Veigar's Q passive gives too much free stats. I think since for months deathcap was the goto first item on every AP, and most people even argued to go deathcap before DFG on Veigar in the Veigar thread, that there's a lot that this community doesn't know. Deathcap never got nerfed. But DFG and abyssal did. Also it's really cool how a lot of items are no longer cost efficient in stats but provide a good active. DFG GA Mogs and shard of true ice being examples. I think this DoTA style is way better than just selling stats since it means that players have more chance of coming back if they use their items well. Actually, the new DFG outperforms the old one in all but the ideal scenario for old DFG. + Show Spoiler [Math and Words] + Old DFG there were essentially only two variables which affected its raw damage, the opponent's current health and your AP. If you assume you always use it on a full health target then it's pretty easy to assess its damage potential. Enemy Maximum Health * (15% + 5%/100 AP * Your AP) = Raw Damage New DFG is slightly more complicated because its effectiveness is based on the base damage and AP ratios of all magic damage abilities and items you can cram into the four second amplification period, in addition to the target's maximum health. Enemy Maximum Health * 15% + (Base Damage + Your AP * Ratios) * 20% = Raw Damage However, we can simplify the comparison because both items share Enemy Maximum Health * 15%. The equations to solve are therefore: Enemy Maximum Health * 5%/100 AP * Your AP = Old DFG (Base Damage + Your AP * Ratios) * 20% = New DFG Now we're obviously going to have to make a lot of assumptions here as we have a lot of unknown variables. For the sake of this argument let's assume a 3000 Health target and 400 AP (a number which came up earlier in the thread). That leaves Base Damage and Ratios to be determined. There are going to vary wildly from champion to champion, so it's hard to know exactly what to put there. However, in general the total damage potential of a single AP carry's rotation is around 3.0. Thus we can solve for the necessary base damage to match old DFG. 3000 * 5%/100 AP * 400 AP = (Base Damage + 400 AP * 3.0) * 20% 3000 * 20% = (Base Damage + 1200) * 20% 3000 = Base Damage + 1200 1800 = Base Damage So against a tank that's actually a lot of base damage. Some AP carries have that much base damage (e.g. Syndra, Veigar, LeBlanc) but not all. However, we've intentionally ignored some differences between the two iterations of DFG. For one, how often did carries use old DFG on tanks at full health? Generally such a use would be wasteful as the tanks were rarely the critical target that needed to be burst down. Second, old DFG was a part of Season 2, where Magic Resistance was more plentiful and Force of Nature existed. The environment surrounding new DFG is different and plays to its favor. Finally, new DFG amplifying any incidental or focused damage on a target, which can amount to a significant amount depending on team composition. The post of new DFG is blatantly obvious when you look past a scenario where you attempt to solo burst a tank at full health. Targeting a squishy, a tank or bruiser whose already taken damage, or working alongside an ally with magic damage will all thrust new DFG way ahead. A Leona without any AP brings enough magic damage to account for almost all of that seemingly difficult to reach 1800 Base Damage value by herself. Even an enemy carry with 2000 Health only requires 800 Base Damage for new DFG to match the old, a number pretty much every respectable AP carry easily surpasses by themselves. It only becomes easier if your champion makes use of items such as Gunblade or Lich Bane. In short, the only situation where new DFG is worse than old DFG is this really weird case where you want to solo burst down an enemy tank who is at full health. In every other situation new DFG is equal or better than old DFG, and is blatantly better for assassination. | ||
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Perplex
United States1693 Posts
On December 16 2012 04:11 NEOtheONE wrote: The damage amplification is pretty ridiculous for champions like Vlad, Veigar, and Le Nuke (Blanc). DFG is back to where it should be, an item that's great on burst casters. And then we have Liandry's for sustain damage casters like Cassiopeia, Karthus, Anivia, and etc. I like having more itemization options. DFG is way better on cass than liandry's if you had to pick between the two though. R-> DFG -> guranteed Q -> EEEEEE + ignite will 100-0 someone without MR | ||
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obesechicken13
United States10467 Posts
On December 16 2012 04:32 Seuss wrote: Actually, the new DFG outperforms the old one in all but the ideal scenario for old DFG. + Show Spoiler [Math and Words] + Old DFG there were essentially only two variables which affected its raw damage, the opponent's current health and your AP. If you assume you always use it on a full health target then it's pretty easy to assess its damage potential. Enemy Maximum Health * (15% + 5%/100 AP * Your AP) = Raw Damage New DFG is slightly more complicated because its effectiveness is based on the base damage and AP ratios of all magic damage abilities and items you can cram into the four second amplification period, in addition to the target's maximum health. Enemy Maximum Health * 15% + (Base Damage + Your AP * Ratios) * 20% = Raw Damage However, we can simplify the comparison because both items share Enemy Maximum Health * 15%. The equations to solve are therefore: Enemy Maximum Health * 5%/100 AP * Your AP = Old DFG (Base Damage + Your AP * Ratios) * 20% = New DFG Now we're obviously going to have to make a lot of assumptions here as we have a lot of unknown variables. For the sake of this argument let's assume a 3000 Health target and 400 AP (a number which came up earlier in the thread). That leaves Base Damage and Ratios to be determined. There are going to vary wildly from champion to champion, so it's hard to know exactly what to put there. However, in general the total damage potential of a single AP carry's rotation is around 3.0. Thus we can solve for the necessary base damage to match old DFG. 3000 * 5%/100 AP * 400 AP = (Base Damage + 400 AP * 3.0) * 20% 3000 * 20% = (Base Damage + 1200) * 20% 3000 = Base Damage + 1200 1800 = Base Damage So against a tank that's actually a lot of base damage. Some AP carries have that much base damage (e.g. Syndra, Veigar, LeBlanc) but not all. However, we've intentionally ignored some differences between the two iterations of DFG. For one, how often did carries use old DFG on tanks at full health? Generally such a use would be wasteful as the tanks were rarely the critical target that needed to be burst down. Second, old DFG was a part of Season 2, where Magic Resistance was more plentiful and Force of Nature existed. The environment surrounding new DFG is different and plays to its favor. Finally, new DFG amplifying any incidental or focused damage on a target, which can amount to a significant amount depending on team composition. The post of new DFG is blatantly obvious when you look past a scenario where you attempt to solo burst a tank at full health. Targeting a squishy, a tank or bruiser whose already taken damage, or working alongside an ally with magic damage will all thrust new DFG way ahead. A Leona without any AP brings enough magic damage to account for almost all of that seemingly difficult to reach 1800 Base Damage value by herself. Even an enemy carry with 2000 Health only requires 800 Base Damage for new DFG to match the old, a number pretty much every respectable AP carry easily surpasses by themselves. It only becomes easier if your champion makes use of items such as Gunblade or Lich Bane. In short, the only situation where new DFG is worse than old DFG is this really weird case where you want to solo burst down an enemy tank who is at full health. In every other situation new DFG is equal or better than old DFG, and is blatantly better for assassination. I was talking about the old old DFG that provided 30% of an enemy's current health in damage with no AP. | ||
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ShaLLoW[baY]
Canada12499 Posts
On December 16 2012 04:33 Perplex wrote: DFG is way better on cass than liandry's if you had to pick between the two though. R-> DFG -> guranteed Q -> EEEEEE + ignite will 100-0 someone without MR i still feel like the burn on liandry's is insignificant | ||
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fishinguy
Russian Federation798 Posts
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Simberto
Germany12070 Posts
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Inschato
Canada1349 Posts
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Keniji
Netherlands2569 Posts
On December 16 2012 05:08 Inschato wrote: And the fact that he can easily gank even when everything is warded all to hell now. Thats the main point i think. The huge nerf to oracle and the addition of sightstone makes it ridicolous hard to gank in competitive games. Nocturne doesn't care tho. | ||
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BlackPaladin
United States9316 Posts
On December 16 2012 04:35 obesechicken13 wrote: I was talking about the old old DFG that provided 30% of an enemy's current health in damage with no AP. Which had 100 less range and so did not work as well in a lot of champ kits. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
What's with the trend. :| | ||
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Louuster
Canada2869 Posts
On December 16 2012 05:11 Keniji wrote: Thats the main point i think. The huge nerf to oracle and the addition of sightstone makes it ridicolous hard to gank in competitive games. Nocturne doesn't care tho. Also black cleaver blahblah etc | ||
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fishinguy
Russian Federation798 Posts
On December 16 2012 05:22 Alaric wrote: What is it with all the Nidalee supports, really? I had 3 of them in 5-6 games today, do they all want to try the new skin and not go top or mid because, well, that would need them to have some clues about how to play? They all built full AP and never bought any wards nor tried to be useful too. What's with the trend. :| Id rather have anyone else support than Nida, if the game goes past 25 mins it becomes a guaranteed 4v5 because Nida becomes completely useless. | ||
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