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Of the 2 I had with me, one was a Draven-Nidalee vs Graves-Leona, and the other one Draven-Nidalee vs Caitlyn-Sona. They didn't wait for the late game to be useless with such match-ups. >>
I really don't get the Nidalee supports because with such a poor kit there's simply no synergy with your AD, it becomes pretty boring as you just got somebody else in lane you share exp with. Even Lux can do stuff.
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Nidalee support brings you basically three things, and none of them particularly well:
) Long range poke, if your enemies happen to be nice enough to let you hit them.
2) Bush control, but not nearly as well as say Caitlyn traps.
3) Heal with an attack speed steroid that costs way too much mana for how much it heals. (Though its ratio weathered those heal nerfs better than most way back when)
The lack of CC really hurts her ability to make plays. Not to mention the lack of an ultimate.
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i swear to god yi is overbuffed he was viable even before but now .....
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On December 16 2012 00:24 overt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 22:29 Ian Ian Ian wrote:
I wouldn't consider Zhonya/Abyssal "high" damage items though. I'd put the high damage AP items at deathcap/void/dfg. Maw only gives you flat damage. BC just RIPS through everyone. Being able to do near true damage on everything is just fucking ridiculous. You no longer need a high AD stat to do dmg. You realize that Zhonyas gives more AP than void/DFG right? And that if you play a champ that makes use of Abyssal range it's the best AP damage item minus Deathcap? I mean the whole logic behind nerfing Abyssal range was that it's nearly as much damage as dcap yet also makes you tanky.
Well I just don't feel like buying Zhonya's is something you buy to pack a punch, its something you buy if you are morg ken or fiddle.. more or less.
I still think the item is stupid with its hp buff on top of all its offensive capabilities. AD players used to have to either go for extreme damage, or high damage and a little bit of tankiness. And now they can just get the tankiness for free without compromising anything really.
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On December 16 2012 06:01 Ian Ian Ian wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2012 00:24 overt wrote:On December 15 2012 22:29 Ian Ian Ian wrote:
I wouldn't consider Zhonya/Abyssal "high" damage items though. I'd put the high damage AP items at deathcap/void/dfg. Maw only gives you flat damage. BC just RIPS through everyone. Being able to do near true damage on everything is just fucking ridiculous. You no longer need a high AD stat to do dmg. You realize that Zhonyas gives more AP than void/DFG right? And that if you play a champ that makes use of Abyssal range it's the best AP damage item minus Deathcap? I mean the whole logic behind nerfing Abyssal range was that it's nearly as much damage as dcap yet also makes you tanky. Well I just don't feel like buying Zhonya's is something you buy to pack a punch, its something you buy if you are morg ken or fiddle.. more or less. I still think the item is stupid with its hp buff on top of all its offensive capabilities. AD players used to have to either go for extreme damage, or high damage and a little bit of tankiness. And now they can just get the tankiness for free without compromising anything really.
It's definitely high damage. Zhonya can make you survive for at least another 2.5 seconds (often more), that allows you to do more damage.
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Ask Swain, Karthus or Fiddle if Zhonya isn't huge damage-wise. 
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On December 16 2012 06:01 Ian Ian Ian wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2012 00:24 overt wrote:On December 15 2012 22:29 Ian Ian Ian wrote:
I wouldn't consider Zhonya/Abyssal "high" damage items though. I'd put the high damage AP items at deathcap/void/dfg. Maw only gives you flat damage. BC just RIPS through everyone. Being able to do near true damage on everything is just fucking ridiculous. You no longer need a high AD stat to do dmg. You realize that Zhonyas gives more AP than void/DFG right? And that if you play a champ that makes use of Abyssal range it's the best AP damage item minus Deathcap? I mean the whole logic behind nerfing Abyssal range was that it's nearly as much damage as dcap yet also makes you tanky. Well I just don't feel like buying Zhonya's is something you buy to pack a punch, its something you buy if you are morg ken or fiddle.. more or less. I still think the item is stupid with its hp buff on top of all its offensive capabilities. AD players used to have to either go for extreme damage, or high damage and a little bit of tankiness. And now they can just get the tankiness for free without compromising anything really.
250 HP are not exactly a giant amount of tankiness, either.
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On December 16 2012 06:09 Alaric wrote:Ask Swain, Karthus or Fiddle if Zhonya isn't huge damage-wise.
Well if you survive longer you can do more damage. You don't need a toggle type AOE DOT spell to justify Zhonya.
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Nid support is alright especially at lower elo. Cait + Nid used to be one of my favorite gimmick lanes-- start mana manipulator, always traps, always spear all day. Sightstone makes it a lot less beneficial now though.
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AP players don't really even have a "high damage" item anymore. They changed Deathcap to be cheaper but give less ap, which I feel is an odd choice.
Also I feel like they need to figure out what is going on with CDR and mages. I kinda feel liked they have made the assumption that no one wants it anymore. That may be true with masteries, blue buff, etc. Honestly, I'd prefer more CDR itemization and losing a little off of blue buff.
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On December 16 2012 06:21 cLutZ wrote:
AP players don't really even have a "high damage" item anymore. They changed Deathcap to be cheaper but give less ap, which I feel is an odd choice.
Also I feel like they need to figure out what is going on with CDR and mages. I kinda feel liked they have made the assumption that no one wants it anymore. That may be true with masteries, blue buff, etc. Honestly, I'd prefer more CDR itemization and losing a little off of blue buff.
I think the real "high damage" AP champions don't even scale with CDR well. e.g. Anivia, Karthus, Cassiopeia.
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On December 16 2012 04:35 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2012 04:32 Seuss wrote:On December 16 2012 03:21 obesechicken13 wrote:I think DFG's actually a lot weaker now. It was way stronger before when it did 30+% health (or flat base) in damage. Now it has a longer range, worse build path, less base damage, no scaling off AP, costs more, provides less gold in stats, and has damage amplification. I don't think it's possible for the new DFG to provide more burst. Even assuming you 100-0 someone using the damage multiplication, the old DFG would have let you do the same thing since the bonus 20% damage can only apply on 85+% of your opponent's remaining life. + Show Spoiler [Spoilered for brevity.] +Even after the range got buffed on DFG, I find that I still get within 600 range before I fire off DFG just so I can get my other skills and ignite off. So DFG got nerfed in every meaningful way.
Now DFG is in a spot where it's not worthy of a first buy, and isn't vital on every AP. I'm definitely not going to build it as much. I tried getting chalice on Veigar yesterday with mana regen runes, and I found that pre level 9 I had enough mana to constantly spam Q. Veigar's Q doesn't cost very much, or have a shorter cooldown until higher levels. I think I'll be going for chalice first in the future. The only problem is that Veigar can't push lanes so against anyone with a waveclear, I'd have been helpless to stop roaming. It's just an example, where, if I see my lane opponent is an Annie and also can't push, I'd consider picking Veigar, and not build DFG first. Veigar's Q passive gives too much free stats.
I think since for months deathcap was the goto first item on every AP, and most people even argued to go deathcap before DFG on Veigar in the Veigar thread, that there's a lot that this community doesn't know. Deathcap never got nerfed. But DFG and abyssal did.
Also it's really cool how a lot of items are no longer cost efficient in stats but provide a good active. DFG GA Mogs and shard of true ice being examples. I think this DoTA style is way better than just selling stats since it means that players have more chance of coming back if they use their items well. Actually, the new DFG outperforms the old one in all but the ideal scenario for old DFG. + Show Spoiler [Math and Words] +Old DFG there were essentially only two variables which affected its raw damage, the opponent's current health and your AP. If you assume you always use it on a full health target then it's pretty easy to assess its damage potential.
Enemy Maximum Health * (15% + 5%/100 AP * Your AP) = Raw Damage
New DFG is slightly more complicated because its effectiveness is based on the base damage and AP ratios of all magic damage abilities and items you can cram into the four second amplification period, in addition to the target's maximum health.
Enemy Maximum Health * 15% + (Base Damage + Your AP * Ratios) * 20% = Raw Damage
However, we can simplify the comparison because both items share Enemy Maximum Health * 15%. The equations to solve are therefore:
Enemy Maximum Health * 5%/100 AP * Your AP = Old DFG
(Base Damage + Your AP * Ratios) * 20% = New DFG
Now we're obviously going to have to make a lot of assumptions here as we have a lot of unknown variables. For the sake of this argument let's assume a 3000 Health target and 400 AP (a number which came up earlier in the thread). That leaves Base Damage and Ratios to be determined. There are going to vary wildly from champion to champion, so it's hard to know exactly what to put there. However, in general the total damage potential of a single AP carry's rotation is around 3.0. Thus we can solve for the necessary base damage to match old DFG.
3000 * 5%/100 AP * 400 AP = (Base Damage + 400 AP * 3.0) * 20%
3000 * 20% = (Base Damage + 1200) * 20%
3000 = Base Damage + 1200
1800 = Base Damage
So against a tank that's actually a lot of base damage. Some AP carries have that much base damage (e.g. Syndra, Veigar, LeBlanc) but not all.
However, we've intentionally ignored some differences between the two iterations of DFG. For one, how often did carries use old DFG on tanks at full health? Generally such a use would be wasteful as the tanks were rarely the critical target that needed to be burst down. Second, old DFG was a part of Season 2, where Magic Resistance was more plentiful and Force of Nature existed. The environment surrounding new DFG is different and plays to its favor. Finally, new DFG amplifying any incidental or focused damage on a target, which can amount to a significant amount depending on team composition.
The post of new DFG is blatantly obvious when you look past a scenario where you attempt to solo burst a tank at full health. Targeting a squishy, a tank or bruiser whose already taken damage, or working alongside an ally with magic damage will all thrust new DFG way ahead. A Leona without any AP brings enough magic damage to account for almost all of that seemingly difficult to reach 1800 Base Damage value by herself. Even an enemy carry with 2000 Health only requires 800 Base Damage for new DFG to match the old, a number pretty much every respectable AP carry easily surpasses by themselves. It only becomes easier if your champion makes use of items such as Gunblade or Lich Bane. In short, the only situation where new DFG is worse than old DFG is this really weird case where you want to solo burst down an enemy tank who is at full health. In every other situation new DFG is equal or better than old DFG, and is blatantly better for assassination. I was talking about the old old DFG that provided 30% of an enemy's current health in damage with no AP.
Even then the only case that really outshines the new DFG by any significant margin is attacking a tank at full health. The difference between what I calculated and what you're talking about is 9% Maximum Health, or 270 damage. That's significant, but it's not so much so that it overturns any of the points I made.
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On December 16 2012 06:28 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2012 06:21 cLutZ wrote:
AP players don't really even have a "high damage" item anymore. They changed Deathcap to be cheaper but give less ap, which I feel is an odd choice.
Also I feel like they need to figure out what is going on with CDR and mages. I kinda feel liked they have made the assumption that no one wants it anymore. That may be true with masteries, blue buff, etc. Honestly, I'd prefer more CDR itemization and losing a little off of blue buff.
I think the real "high damage" AP champions don't even scale with CDR well. e.g. Anivia, Karthus, Cassiopeia.
True true. Although Karthus Ult and Cassio Ult can really make a teamfight and have pretty long cooldowns so it sucks to use them if you don't have that 40%.
To be quite honest I was thinking of some of my more played APs like Morgana and Orianna. Morg's Q/W and Ori's W never seem to come off CD as quickly as I would want during those sieges where blue wears off and I can't just go run 1/2 across the map for a blue.
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On December 16 2012 06:42 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2012 06:28 Sufficiency wrote:On December 16 2012 06:21 cLutZ wrote:
AP players don't really even have a "high damage" item anymore. They changed Deathcap to be cheaper but give less ap, which I feel is an odd choice.
Also I feel like they need to figure out what is going on with CDR and mages. I kinda feel liked they have made the assumption that no one wants it anymore. That may be true with masteries, blue buff, etc. Honestly, I'd prefer more CDR itemization and losing a little off of blue buff.
I think the real "high damage" AP champions don't even scale with CDR well. e.g. Anivia, Karthus, Cassiopeia. True true. Although Karthus Ult and Cassio Ult can really make a teamfight and have pretty long cooldowns so it sucks to use them if you don't have that 40%. To be quite honest I was thinking of some of my more played APs like Morgana and Orianna. Morg's Q/W and Ori's W never seem to come off CD as quickly as I would want during those sieges where blue wears off and I can't just go run 1/2 across the map for a blue.
CDR on ults are not worth it beyond the laning phase. You almost never fight twice in short intervals after the laning phase of the game, so whether or not you have 150sec cd or 90 sec cd is really not a big factor.
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Who else is watching Silsol poop on aphrolift with ghost ignite Corki?
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On December 16 2012 06:58 HazMat wrote:
Who else is watching Silsol poop on aphrolift with ghost ignite Corki?
and they won the game
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On December 16 2012 07:14 kongoline wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2012 06:58 HazMat wrote:
Who else is watching Silsol poop on aphrolift with ghost ignite Corki? and they won the game
Saw it coming. DL just farms too well despite getting owned. And well he's Doublelift and he's silsol :D
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On December 16 2012 06:31 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2012 04:35 obesechicken13 wrote:On December 16 2012 04:32 Seuss wrote:On December 16 2012 03:21 obesechicken13 wrote:I think DFG's actually a lot weaker now. It was way stronger before when it did 30+% health (or flat base) in damage. Now it has a longer range, worse build path, less base damage, no scaling off AP, costs more, provides less gold in stats, and has damage amplification. I don't think it's possible for the new DFG to provide more burst. Even assuming you 100-0 someone using the damage multiplication, the old DFG would have let you do the same thing since the bonus 20% damage can only apply on 85+% of your opponent's remaining life. + Show Spoiler [Spoilered for brevity.] +Even after the range got buffed on DFG, I find that I still get within 600 range before I fire off DFG just so I can get my other skills and ignite off. So DFG got nerfed in every meaningful way.
Now DFG is in a spot where it's not worthy of a first buy, and isn't vital on every AP. I'm definitely not going to build it as much. I tried getting chalice on Veigar yesterday with mana regen runes, and I found that pre level 9 I had enough mana to constantly spam Q. Veigar's Q doesn't cost very much, or have a shorter cooldown until higher levels. I think I'll be going for chalice first in the future. The only problem is that Veigar can't push lanes so against anyone with a waveclear, I'd have been helpless to stop roaming. It's just an example, where, if I see my lane opponent is an Annie and also can't push, I'd consider picking Veigar, and not build DFG first. Veigar's Q passive gives too much free stats.
I think since for months deathcap was the goto first item on every AP, and most people even argued to go deathcap before DFG on Veigar in the Veigar thread, that there's a lot that this community doesn't know. Deathcap never got nerfed. But DFG and abyssal did.
Also it's really cool how a lot of items are no longer cost efficient in stats but provide a good active. DFG GA Mogs and shard of true ice being examples. I think this DoTA style is way better than just selling stats since it means that players have more chance of coming back if they use their items well. Actually, the new DFG outperforms the old one in all but the ideal scenario for old DFG. + Show Spoiler [Math and Words] +Old DFG there were essentially only two variables which affected its raw damage, the opponent's current health and your AP. If you assume you always use it on a full health target then it's pretty easy to assess its damage potential.
Enemy Maximum Health * (15% + 5%/100 AP * Your AP) = Raw Damage
New DFG is slightly more complicated because its effectiveness is based on the base damage and AP ratios of all magic damage abilities and items you can cram into the four second amplification period, in addition to the target's maximum health.
Enemy Maximum Health * 15% + (Base Damage + Your AP * Ratios) * 20% = Raw Damage
However, we can simplify the comparison because both items share Enemy Maximum Health * 15%. The equations to solve are therefore:
Enemy Maximum Health * 5%/100 AP * Your AP = Old DFG
(Base Damage + Your AP * Ratios) * 20% = New DFG
Now we're obviously going to have to make a lot of assumptions here as we have a lot of unknown variables. For the sake of this argument let's assume a 3000 Health target and 400 AP (a number which came up earlier in the thread). That leaves Base Damage and Ratios to be determined. There are going to vary wildly from champion to champion, so it's hard to know exactly what to put there. However, in general the total damage potential of a single AP carry's rotation is around 3.0. Thus we can solve for the necessary base damage to match old DFG.
3000 * 5%/100 AP * 400 AP = (Base Damage + 400 AP * 3.0) * 20%
3000 * 20% = (Base Damage + 1200) * 20%
3000 = Base Damage + 1200
1800 = Base Damage
So against a tank that's actually a lot of base damage. Some AP carries have that much base damage (e.g. Syndra, Veigar, LeBlanc) but not all.
However, we've intentionally ignored some differences between the two iterations of DFG. For one, how often did carries use old DFG on tanks at full health? Generally such a use would be wasteful as the tanks were rarely the critical target that needed to be burst down. Second, old DFG was a part of Season 2, where Magic Resistance was more plentiful and Force of Nature existed. The environment surrounding new DFG is different and plays to its favor. Finally, new DFG amplifying any incidental or focused damage on a target, which can amount to a significant amount depending on team composition.
The post of new DFG is blatantly obvious when you look past a scenario where you attempt to solo burst a tank at full health. Targeting a squishy, a tank or bruiser whose already taken damage, or working alongside an ally with magic damage will all thrust new DFG way ahead. A Leona without any AP brings enough magic damage to account for almost all of that seemingly difficult to reach 1800 Base Damage value by herself. Even an enemy carry with 2000 Health only requires 800 Base Damage for new DFG to match the old, a number pretty much every respectable AP carry easily surpasses by themselves. It only becomes easier if your champion makes use of items such as Gunblade or Lich Bane. In short, the only situation where new DFG is worse than old DFG is this really weird case where you want to solo burst down an enemy tank who is at full health. In every other situation new DFG is equal or better than old DFG, and is blatantly better for assassination. I was talking about the old old DFG that provided 30% of an enemy's current health in damage with no AP. Even then the only case that really outshines the new DFG by any significant margin is attacking a tank at full health. The difference between what I calculated and what you're talking about is 9% Maximum Health, or 270 damage. That's significant, but it's not so much so that it overturns any of the points I made.
Some problems I have with your analysis:
Considering how most games are short enough that IE appears in only 10% of games on lolking I'd say 400 ap is too high.
It's also weird to do analysis at level 18 when most solo queue games are decided well before then.
Some AP carries have that much base damage (e.g. Syndra, Veigar, LeBlanc) but not all
Neither Leblanc nor Veigar has such high base damage.
1080 Veigar
1097 Leblanc
I don't care about Syndra
A Leona without any AP brings enough magic damage to account for almost all of that seemingly difficult to reach 1800 Base Damage value by herself.
No she doesn't. Even if you assume she gets all 4 procs of her passive off from an ally she reaches 1550 damage. And that's a bit too optimistic. You can't really assume that every champion gets all their abilities off. Often Veigar and leblanc can only land Q and R.
You left out the 30% max health vs 15% current health completely from your analysis.
You left out stat efficiency completely from your analysis. You're paying 500 more gold for the passive on the new DFG.
I might have made a mistake here in my analysis. Please review.
If we assume 100,400 ap, and that the target squishy has 42 mr, and you have sorc boots and magic pen reds(8 magic pen) then the target has 14mr remaining. An "effective magic health" of 1.14*2000.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/LUpAa.png)
Things do sway more in the new DFG's favor if you do land more skills though. Also It is closer than I originally thought.
I only used Veigar's Q and R abilities though I really should have also included ignite at the very least.
I need to get laid.
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On December 16 2012 06:49 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2012 06:42 cLutZ wrote:On December 16 2012 06:28 Sufficiency wrote:On December 16 2012 06:21 cLutZ wrote:
AP players don't really even have a "high damage" item anymore. They changed Deathcap to be cheaper but give less ap, which I feel is an odd choice.
Also I feel like they need to figure out what is going on with CDR and mages. I kinda feel liked they have made the assumption that no one wants it anymore. That may be true with masteries, blue buff, etc. Honestly, I'd prefer more CDR itemization and losing a little off of blue buff.
I think the real "high damage" AP champions don't even scale with CDR well. e.g. Anivia, Karthus, Cassiopeia. True true. Although Karthus Ult and Cassio Ult can really make a teamfight and have pretty long cooldowns so it sucks to use them if you don't have that 40%. To be quite honest I was thinking of some of my more played APs like Morgana and Orianna. Morg's Q/W and Ori's W never seem to come off CD as quickly as I would want during those sieges where blue wears off and I can't just go run 1/2 across the map for a blue. CDR on ults are not worth it beyond the laning phase. You almost never fight twice in short intervals after the laning phase of the game, so whether or not you have 150sec cd or 90 sec cd is really not a big factor.
h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4
luxlaughing.jpg
EDIT: Also, with enough of a difference between major Ult cooldowns, it allows a team to force a fight when they know they have an advantage in heavy hitting spells.
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EPT
