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On December 16 2012 06:49 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2012 06:42 cLutZ wrote:On December 16 2012 06:28 Sufficiency wrote:On December 16 2012 06:21 cLutZ wrote:
AP players don't really even have a "high damage" item anymore. They changed Deathcap to be cheaper but give less ap, which I feel is an odd choice.
Also I feel like they need to figure out what is going on with CDR and mages. I kinda feel liked they have made the assumption that no one wants it anymore. That may be true with masteries, blue buff, etc. Honestly, I'd prefer more CDR itemization and losing a little off of blue buff.
I think the real "high damage" AP champions don't even scale with CDR well. e.g. Anivia, Karthus, Cassiopeia. True true. Although Karthus Ult and Cassio Ult can really make a teamfight and have pretty long cooldowns so it sucks to use them if you don't have that 40%. To be quite honest I was thinking of some of my more played APs like Morgana and Orianna. Morg's Q/W and Ori's W never seem to come off CD as quickly as I would want during those sieges where blue wears off and I can't just go run 1/2 across the map for a blue. CDR on ults are not worth it beyond the laning phase. You almost never fight twice in short intervals after the laning phase of the game, so whether or not you have 150sec cd or 90 sec cd is really not a big factor.
I really don't agree with this statement. Especially if games are close and you end up with a close teamfight at baron 1-2 members on each team left, no one got the baron kill, or maybe you ace the team that got baron, but only have 1-2 members alive. A teamfight certainly can happen within 90 seconds. + Some chars have utility ults with low CDs that you can really crush down and use a lot. Like Gragas, if your team overextends at an inhib and you lose 1, ult to disengage, back up for the standoff at your own inhib turret by the time minions make that slow duckwalk.
See also: Ahri, Lux, Kat, Eve.
Maybe your teams are really good at not engaging when ults are down and mine are not (entirely possible).
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On December 16 2012 06:28 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2012 06:21 cLutZ wrote:
AP players don't really even have a "high damage" item anymore. They changed Deathcap to be cheaper but give less ap, which I feel is an odd choice.
Also I feel like they need to figure out what is going on with CDR and mages. I kinda feel liked they have made the assumption that no one wants it anymore. That may be true with masteries, blue buff, etc. Honestly, I'd prefer more CDR itemization and losing a little off of blue buff.
I think the real "high damage" AP champions don't even scale with CDR well. e.g. Anivia, Karthus, Cassiopeia.
anivia scales really really really well with cdr
when your E is at 40% cdr its like 4 seconds or so
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On December 16 2012 07:38 VirgilSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2012 06:49 Sufficiency wrote:On December 16 2012 06:42 cLutZ wrote:On December 16 2012 06:28 Sufficiency wrote:On December 16 2012 06:21 cLutZ wrote:
AP players don't really even have a "high damage" item anymore. They changed Deathcap to be cheaper but give less ap, which I feel is an odd choice.
Also I feel like they need to figure out what is going on with CDR and mages. I kinda feel liked they have made the assumption that no one wants it anymore. That may be true with masteries, blue buff, etc. Honestly, I'd prefer more CDR itemization and losing a little off of blue buff.
I think the real "high damage" AP champions don't even scale with CDR well. e.g. Anivia, Karthus, Cassiopeia. True true. Although Karthus Ult and Cassio Ult can really make a teamfight and have pretty long cooldowns so it sucks to use them if you don't have that 40%. To be quite honest I was thinking of some of my more played APs like Morgana and Orianna. Morg's Q/W and Ori's W never seem to come off CD as quickly as I would want during those sieges where blue wears off and I can't just go run 1/2 across the map for a blue. CDR on ults are not worth it beyond the laning phase. You almost never fight twice in short intervals after the laning phase of the game, so whether or not you have 150sec cd or 90 sec cd is really not a big factor. h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4 luxlaughing.jpg EDIT: Also, with enough of a difference between major Ult cooldowns, it allows a team to force a fight when they know they have an advantage in heavy hitting spells.
OK sure. Anivia, Lux, Swain, etc. don't have traditional CDs on ults. Their so-called ults are pretty close to another regular ability.
I am just saying that building CDR to reduce Cass/Karthus ults are not worth it.
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On December 16 2012 07:59 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2012 06:49 Sufficiency wrote:On December 16 2012 06:42 cLutZ wrote:On December 16 2012 06:28 Sufficiency wrote:On December 16 2012 06:21 cLutZ wrote:
AP players don't really even have a "high damage" item anymore. They changed Deathcap to be cheaper but give less ap, which I feel is an odd choice.
Also I feel like they need to figure out what is going on with CDR and mages. I kinda feel liked they have made the assumption that no one wants it anymore. That may be true with masteries, blue buff, etc. Honestly, I'd prefer more CDR itemization and losing a little off of blue buff.
I think the real "high damage" AP champions don't even scale with CDR well. e.g. Anivia, Karthus, Cassiopeia. True true. Although Karthus Ult and Cassio Ult can really make a teamfight and have pretty long cooldowns so it sucks to use them if you don't have that 40%. To be quite honest I was thinking of some of my more played APs like Morgana and Orianna. Morg's Q/W and Ori's W never seem to come off CD as quickly as I would want during those sieges where blue wears off and I can't just go run 1/2 across the map for a blue. CDR on ults are not worth it beyond the laning phase. You almost never fight twice in short intervals after the laning phase of the game, so whether or not you have 150sec cd or 90 sec cd is really not a big factor. I really don't agree with this statement. Especially if games are close and you end up with a close teamfight at baron 1-2 members on each team left, no one got the baron kill, or maybe you ace the team that got baron, but only have 1-2 members alive. A teamfight certainly can happen within 90 seconds. + Some chars have utility ults with low CDs that you can really crush down and use a lot. Like Gragas, if your team overextends at an inhib and you lose 1, ult to disengage, back up for the standoff at your own inhib turret by the time minions make that slow duckwalk. See also: Ahri, Lux, Kat, Eve.Maybe your teams are really good at not engaging when ults are down and mine are not (entirely possible).
Oh man. I love Eve and all but even I think the CD on that ult is overpowered considering its damage/utility. By level 16 you have it up ever 50s or so with Blue. It's ridiculous.
And don't even get me started on Lux.
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United States47024 Posts
On December 16 2012 07:34 obesechicken13 wrote:
I might have made a mistake here in my analysis. Please review.
If we assume 100,400 ap, and that the target squishy has 42 mr, and you have sorc boots and magic pen reds(8 magic pen) then the target has 14mr remaining. An "effective magic health" of 1.14*2000.
By biggest problem is the 42 MR assumption. That's assuming base MR + flat MR blues, which is like the absolute minimum anyone will have, and is almost never a practical scenario.
Even if the enemy doesn't itemize MR (which basically never happens), the minimum you should be assuming is 72 MR because of Bulwark.
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On December 16 2012 08:03 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2012 07:59 cLutZ wrote:On December 16 2012 06:49 Sufficiency wrote:On December 16 2012 06:42 cLutZ wrote:On December 16 2012 06:28 Sufficiency wrote:On December 16 2012 06:21 cLutZ wrote:
AP players don't really even have a "high damage" item anymore. They changed Deathcap to be cheaper but give less ap, which I feel is an odd choice.
Also I feel like they need to figure out what is going on with CDR and mages. I kinda feel liked they have made the assumption that no one wants it anymore. That may be true with masteries, blue buff, etc. Honestly, I'd prefer more CDR itemization and losing a little off of blue buff.
I think the real "high damage" AP champions don't even scale with CDR well. e.g. Anivia, Karthus, Cassiopeia. True true. Although Karthus Ult and Cassio Ult can really make a teamfight and have pretty long cooldowns so it sucks to use them if you don't have that 40%. To be quite honest I was thinking of some of my more played APs like Morgana and Orianna. Morg's Q/W and Ori's W never seem to come off CD as quickly as I would want during those sieges where blue wears off and I can't just go run 1/2 across the map for a blue. CDR on ults are not worth it beyond the laning phase. You almost never fight twice in short intervals after the laning phase of the game, so whether or not you have 150sec cd or 90 sec cd is really not a big factor. I really don't agree with this statement. Especially if games are close and you end up with a close teamfight at baron 1-2 members on each team left, no one got the baron kill, or maybe you ace the team that got baron, but only have 1-2 members alive. A teamfight certainly can happen within 90 seconds. + Some chars have utility ults with low CDs that you can really crush down and use a lot. Like Gragas, if your team overextends at an inhib and you lose 1, ult to disengage, back up for the standoff at your own inhib turret by the time minions make that slow duckwalk. See also: Ahri, Lux, Kat, Eve.Maybe your teams are really good at not engaging when ults are down and mine are not (entirely possible). Oh man. I love Eve and all but even I think the CD on that ult is overpowered considering its damage/utility. By level 16 you have it up ever 50s or so with Blue. It's ridiculous. And don't even get me started on Lux.
Pssh its base CD is 60. You can bring it under 40 easy with Blue
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On December 16 2012 08:00 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2012 07:38 VirgilSC2 wrote:On December 16 2012 06:49 Sufficiency wrote:On December 16 2012 06:42 cLutZ wrote:On December 16 2012 06:28 Sufficiency wrote:On December 16 2012 06:21 cLutZ wrote:
AP players don't really even have a "high damage" item anymore. They changed Deathcap to be cheaper but give less ap, which I feel is an odd choice.
Also I feel like they need to figure out what is going on with CDR and mages. I kinda feel liked they have made the assumption that no one wants it anymore. That may be true with masteries, blue buff, etc. Honestly, I'd prefer more CDR itemization and losing a little off of blue buff.
I think the real "high damage" AP champions don't even scale with CDR well. e.g. Anivia, Karthus, Cassiopeia. True true. Although Karthus Ult and Cassio Ult can really make a teamfight and have pretty long cooldowns so it sucks to use them if you don't have that 40%. To be quite honest I was thinking of some of my more played APs like Morgana and Orianna. Morg's Q/W and Ori's W never seem to come off CD as quickly as I would want during those sieges where blue wears off and I can't just go run 1/2 across the map for a blue. CDR on ults are not worth it beyond the laning phase. You almost never fight twice in short intervals after the laning phase of the game, so whether or not you have 150sec cd or 90 sec cd is really not a big factor. h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4 luxlaughing.jpg EDIT: Also, with enough of a difference between major Ult cooldowns, it allows a team to force a fight when they know they have an advantage in heavy hitting spells. OK sure. Anivia, Lux, Swain, etc. don't have traditional CDs on ults. Their so-called ults are pretty close to another regular ability. I am just saying that building CDR to reduce Cass/Karthus ults are not worth it.
The thing you are missing here is the freedom that having an ult up brings. Late game fights are dependent on who has what up.
Think about it this way. If you have Mummy on your team, are you EVER fighting late without his ult if you can help it? No. Reducing that CD not only enables you to actually fight sooner, but it also enables you to move around and position properly since you have the threat of that ultimate.
A 30 second difference in CD doesnt necessarily equate to being able to fight 30 seconds sooner, on the dot, every time, because we all know that isnt how the game works. But what it does do is allow your team to go back out and exert map control and threat sooner, and cuts down any downswing in team power that you have.
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On December 16 2012 08:00 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2012 07:38 VirgilSC2 wrote:On December 16 2012 06:49 Sufficiency wrote:On December 16 2012 06:42 cLutZ wrote:On December 16 2012 06:28 Sufficiency wrote:On December 16 2012 06:21 cLutZ wrote:
AP players don't really even have a "high damage" item anymore. They changed Deathcap to be cheaper but give less ap, which I feel is an odd choice.
Also I feel like they need to figure out what is going on with CDR and mages. I kinda feel liked they have made the assumption that no one wants it anymore. That may be true with masteries, blue buff, etc. Honestly, I'd prefer more CDR itemization and losing a little off of blue buff.
I think the real "high damage" AP champions don't even scale with CDR well. e.g. Anivia, Karthus, Cassiopeia. True true. Although Karthus Ult and Cassio Ult can really make a teamfight and have pretty long cooldowns so it sucks to use them if you don't have that 40%. To be quite honest I was thinking of some of my more played APs like Morgana and Orianna. Morg's Q/W and Ori's W never seem to come off CD as quickly as I would want during those sieges where blue wears off and I can't just go run 1/2 across the map for a blue. CDR on ults are not worth it beyond the laning phase. You almost never fight twice in short intervals after the laning phase of the game, so whether or not you have 150sec cd or 90 sec cd is really not a big factor. h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4 luxlaughing.jpg EDIT: Also, with enough of a difference between major Ult cooldowns, it allows a team to force a fight when they know they have an advantage in heavy hitting spells. OK sure. Anivia, Lux, Swain, etc. don't have traditional CDs on ults. Their so-called ults are pretty close to another regular ability. I am just saying that building CDR to reduce Cass/Karthus ults are not worth it.
Are you for real? Because the nerf on Karthus ult cooldown makes so a lot of the time, you don't have your ult up by the time the next fights rolls around, especially if the enemy team forces the issue. I wouldn't say CDR is ever really a bad thing to get.
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On December 16 2012 08:27 zer0das wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2012 08:00 Sufficiency wrote:On December 16 2012 07:38 VirgilSC2 wrote:On December 16 2012 06:49 Sufficiency wrote:On December 16 2012 06:42 cLutZ wrote:On December 16 2012 06:28 Sufficiency wrote:On December 16 2012 06:21 cLutZ wrote:
AP players don't really even have a "high damage" item anymore. They changed Deathcap to be cheaper but give less ap, which I feel is an odd choice.
Also I feel like they need to figure out what is going on with CDR and mages. I kinda feel liked they have made the assumption that no one wants it anymore. That may be true with masteries, blue buff, etc. Honestly, I'd prefer more CDR itemization and losing a little off of blue buff.
I think the real "high damage" AP champions don't even scale with CDR well. e.g. Anivia, Karthus, Cassiopeia. True true. Although Karthus Ult and Cassio Ult can really make a teamfight and have pretty long cooldowns so it sucks to use them if you don't have that 40%. To be quite honest I was thinking of some of my more played APs like Morgana and Orianna. Morg's Q/W and Ori's W never seem to come off CD as quickly as I would want during those sieges where blue wears off and I can't just go run 1/2 across the map for a blue. CDR on ults are not worth it beyond the laning phase. You almost never fight twice in short intervals after the laning phase of the game, so whether or not you have 150sec cd or 90 sec cd is really not a big factor. h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4 luxlaughing.jpg EDIT: Also, with enough of a difference between major Ult cooldowns, it allows a team to force a fight when they know they have an advantage in heavy hitting spells. OK sure. Anivia, Lux, Swain, etc. don't have traditional CDs on ults. Their so-called ults are pretty close to another regular ability. I am just saying that building CDR to reduce Cass/Karthus ults are not worth it. Are you for real? Because the nerf on Karthus ult cooldown makes so a lot of the time, you don't have your ult up by the time the next fights rolls around, especially if the enemy team forces the issue. I wouldn't say CDR is ever really a bad thing to get.
Sure, but:
1. You don't absolutely need to fight while your ult is down.
2. CDR synergizes poorly with his other abilities.
If I was asked to choose between Grail (say pre-nerfed Grail) and Zhonya on Karthus, I would give you a very simple answer.
Back to my point, I don't think CDR is worth investing just to keep the ultimate's CD low for AP mids, especially after the laning phase. By "ultimate" I mean a traditional ultimate with 100ish seconds cooldown. While CDR on ults does help a lot in the laning phase, investing gold to make it cool ~20 seconds faster in the teamfight phase seems worthless, because you don't fight that often and just in case the enemy team wants to fight, your team can usually stall for you.
Why is CDR strong on Lux? It's because her R has a 40 seconds CD at rank 3. With CDR investments she can drop it to 24 seconds, which is very close to another basic ability. It's also very spammable due to its long range.
Why is CDR strong strong in general? It's because CDR works great on basic abilities (particularly abilities already with very low cooldown) and scales your theoretical DPS in a superlinear way (unlike AP, which scales linearly).
Why is CDR poor on Karthus and Cassiopeia? It's because while it cuts down their ults' CD by a lot, 20-30 seconds shorter CD is not terribly significant in practice. Furthermore, their basic abilities do not scale really well with CDR due to how their Es work. The Karthus's R CD nerf is pretty much strictly a laning phase nerf.
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Uh, having some CDR allows Swain more room to turn off his ult (and reset the mana cost) then back on during teamfights. If things drag on, it can be very important.
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On December 16 2012 08:53 Alaric wrote:
Uh, having some CDR allows Swain more room to turn off his ult (and reset the mana cost) then back on during teamfights. If things drag on, it can be very important.
Sure, but you don't get CDR on Swain just for that minor perk on his ultimate. You get CDR because it increases his DPS and sticking power from his basic abilities.
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On December 16 2012 08:50 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2012 08:27 zer0das wrote:On December 16 2012 08:00 Sufficiency wrote:On December 16 2012 07:38 VirgilSC2 wrote:On December 16 2012 06:49 Sufficiency wrote:On December 16 2012 06:42 cLutZ wrote:On December 16 2012 06:28 Sufficiency wrote:On December 16 2012 06:21 cLutZ wrote:
AP players don't really even have a "high damage" item anymore. They changed Deathcap to be cheaper but give less ap, which I feel is an odd choice.
Also I feel like they need to figure out what is going on with CDR and mages. I kinda feel liked they have made the assumption that no one wants it anymore. That may be true with masteries, blue buff, etc. Honestly, I'd prefer more CDR itemization and losing a little off of blue buff.
I think the real "high damage" AP champions don't even scale with CDR well. e.g. Anivia, Karthus, Cassiopeia. True true. Although Karthus Ult and Cassio Ult can really make a teamfight and have pretty long cooldowns so it sucks to use them if you don't have that 40%. To be quite honest I was thinking of some of my more played APs like Morgana and Orianna. Morg's Q/W and Ori's W never seem to come off CD as quickly as I would want during those sieges where blue wears off and I can't just go run 1/2 across the map for a blue. CDR on ults are not worth it beyond the laning phase. You almost never fight twice in short intervals after the laning phase of the game, so whether or not you have 150sec cd or 90 sec cd is really not a big factor. h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4 luxlaughing.jpg EDIT: Also, with enough of a difference between major Ult cooldowns, it allows a team to force a fight when they know they have an advantage in heavy hitting spells. OK sure. Anivia, Lux, Swain, etc. don't have traditional CDs on ults. Their so-called ults are pretty close to another regular ability. I am just saying that building CDR to reduce Cass/Karthus ults are not worth it. Are you for real? Because the nerf on Karthus ult cooldown makes so a lot of the time, you don't have your ult up by the time the next fights rolls around, especially if the enemy team forces the issue. I wouldn't say CDR is ever really a bad thing to get. Sure, but: 1. You don't absolutely need to fight while your ult is down. 2. CDR synergizes poorly with his other abilities. If I was asked to choose between Grail (say pre-nerfed Grail) and Zhonya on Karthus, I would give you a very simple answer. Back to my point, I don't think CDR is worth investing just to keep the ultimate's CD low for AP mids. By "ultimate" I mean a traditional ultimate with 100ish seconds cooldown. While CDR on ults does help a lot in the laning phase, investing gold to make it cool ~20 seconds faster in the teamfight phase seems worthless, because you don't fight that often and just in case the enemy team wants to fight, your team can usually stall for you. Why is CDR strong on Lux? It's because her R has a 40 seconds CD at rank 3. With CDR investments she can drop it to 24 seconds, which is very close to another basic ability. It's also very spammable due to its long range. Why is CDR strong strong in general? It's because CDR works great on basic abilities (particularly abilities already with very low cooldown) and scales your theoretical DPS in a superlinear way (unlike AP, which scales linearly). Why is CDR poor on Karthus and Cassiopeia? It's because while it cuts down their ults' CD by a lot, 20-30 seconds shorter CD is not terribly significant. Furthermore, their basic abilities do not scale really well with CDR due to how their Es work. The Karthus's R CD nerf is pretty much strictly a laning phase nerf.
Why are you obsessing over Karthus and Cassiopeia? There are tons of other mids who would like more high-damage options with AP + CDR.
Why are you pretending a team with these champions is not facing another team that has competent players that know/want/can take advantage of these cooldowns? If I'm a team with a Diana or Kat or Eve, etc, and we just went 4 for 4 in a teamfight where Karthus used his ult, we are forcing an objective, and because the ult is down, its no longer an even proposition, its 2 for ace.
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On December 16 2012 09:03 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2012 08:50 Sufficiency wrote:On December 16 2012 08:27 zer0das wrote:On December 16 2012 08:00 Sufficiency wrote:On December 16 2012 07:38 VirgilSC2 wrote:On December 16 2012 06:49 Sufficiency wrote:On December 16 2012 06:42 cLutZ wrote:On December 16 2012 06:28 Sufficiency wrote:On December 16 2012 06:21 cLutZ wrote:
AP players don't really even have a "high damage" item anymore. They changed Deathcap to be cheaper but give less ap, which I feel is an odd choice.
Also I feel like they need to figure out what is going on with CDR and mages. I kinda feel liked they have made the assumption that no one wants it anymore. That may be true with masteries, blue buff, etc. Honestly, I'd prefer more CDR itemization and losing a little off of blue buff.
I think the real "high damage" AP champions don't even scale with CDR well. e.g. Anivia, Karthus, Cassiopeia. True true. Although Karthus Ult and Cassio Ult can really make a teamfight and have pretty long cooldowns so it sucks to use them if you don't have that 40%. To be quite honest I was thinking of some of my more played APs like Morgana and Orianna. Morg's Q/W and Ori's W never seem to come off CD as quickly as I would want during those sieges where blue wears off and I can't just go run 1/2 across the map for a blue. CDR on ults are not worth it beyond the laning phase. You almost never fight twice in short intervals after the laning phase of the game, so whether or not you have 150sec cd or 90 sec cd is really not a big factor. h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4 luxlaughing.jpg EDIT: Also, with enough of a difference between major Ult cooldowns, it allows a team to force a fight when they know they have an advantage in heavy hitting spells. OK sure. Anivia, Lux, Swain, etc. don't have traditional CDs on ults. Their so-called ults are pretty close to another regular ability. I am just saying that building CDR to reduce Cass/Karthus ults are not worth it. Are you for real? Because the nerf on Karthus ult cooldown makes so a lot of the time, you don't have your ult up by the time the next fights rolls around, especially if the enemy team forces the issue. I wouldn't say CDR is ever really a bad thing to get. Sure, but: 1. You don't absolutely need to fight while your ult is down. 2. CDR synergizes poorly with his other abilities. If I was asked to choose between Grail (say pre-nerfed Grail) and Zhonya on Karthus, I would give you a very simple answer. Back to my point, I don't think CDR is worth investing just to keep the ultimate's CD low for AP mids. By "ultimate" I mean a traditional ultimate with 100ish seconds cooldown. While CDR on ults does help a lot in the laning phase, investing gold to make it cool ~20 seconds faster in the teamfight phase seems worthless, because you don't fight that often and just in case the enemy team wants to fight, your team can usually stall for you. Why is CDR strong on Lux? It's because her R has a 40 seconds CD at rank 3. With CDR investments she can drop it to 24 seconds, which is very close to another basic ability. It's also very spammable due to its long range. Why is CDR strong strong in general? It's because CDR works great on basic abilities (particularly abilities already with very low cooldown) and scales your theoretical DPS in a superlinear way (unlike AP, which scales linearly). Why is CDR poor on Karthus and Cassiopeia? It's because while it cuts down their ults' CD by a lot, 20-30 seconds shorter CD is not terribly significant. Furthermore, their basic abilities do not scale really well with CDR due to how their Es work. The Karthus's R CD nerf is pretty much strictly a laning phase nerf. Why are you obsessing over Karthus and Cassiopeia? There are tons of other mids who would like more high-damage options with AP + CDR. Why are you pretending a team with these champions is not facing another team that has competent players that know/want/can take advantage of these cooldowns? If I'm a team with a Diana or Kat or Eve, etc, and we just went 4 for 4 in a teamfight where Karthus used his ult, we are forcing an objective, and because the ult is down, its no longer an even proposition, its 2 for ace.
I am "obsessed" over those champions because the whole thing started with "high DPS AP mids do not scale well with CDR". Karthus and Cassiopeia have the highest DPS for AP mids in the game.
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CDR is huuuuuuuge on like every single AP ever.
Why are you even arguing about that?
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Baa?21245 Posts
On December 16 2012 09:07 Dandel Ion wrote:
CDR is huuuuuuuge on like every single AP ever.
Why are you even arguing about that?
cause it's sufficiency and he likes to argue about random shit while being wrong about everything
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On December 16 2012 09:07 Dandel Ion wrote:
CDR is huuuuuuuge on like every single AP ever.
Why are you even arguing about that?
I never said it was not huge. Like I said, it scales your theoretical DPS in a superlinear way. But I think building CDR just to shred 20-30 seconds off your ult is not worthwhile, especially beyond the laning phase.
On December 16 2012 09:09 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2012 09:07 Dandel Ion wrote:
CDR is huuuuuuuge on like every single AP ever.
Why are you even arguing about that? cause it's sufficiency and he likes to argue about random shit while being wrong about everything
Why do you even bother to reply if you think everything I said is absolutely ridiculous. I don't want to argue with you since you got nothing nice to say, but I ask you nicely to please do not say anything about me anymore. Thank you.
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On December 16 2012 09:07 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2012 09:03 cLutZ wrote:On December 16 2012 08:50 Sufficiency wrote:On December 16 2012 08:27 zer0das wrote:On December 16 2012 08:00 Sufficiency wrote:On December 16 2012 07:38 VirgilSC2 wrote:On December 16 2012 06:49 Sufficiency wrote:On December 16 2012 06:42 cLutZ wrote:On December 16 2012 06:28 Sufficiency wrote:On December 16 2012 06:21 cLutZ wrote:
AP players don't really even have a "high damage" item anymore. They changed Deathcap to be cheaper but give less ap, which I feel is an odd choice.
Also I feel like they need to figure out what is going on with CDR and mages. I kinda feel liked they have made the assumption that no one wants it anymore. That may be true with masteries, blue buff, etc. Honestly, I'd prefer more CDR itemization and losing a little off of blue buff.
I think the real "high damage" AP champions don't even scale with CDR well. e.g. Anivia, Karthus, Cassiopeia. True true. Although Karthus Ult and Cassio Ult can really make a teamfight and have pretty long cooldowns so it sucks to use them if you don't have that 40%. To be quite honest I was thinking of some of my more played APs like Morgana and Orianna. Morg's Q/W and Ori's W never seem to come off CD as quickly as I would want during those sieges where blue wears off and I can't just go run 1/2 across the map for a blue. CDR on ults are not worth it beyond the laning phase. You almost never fight twice in short intervals after the laning phase of the game, so whether or not you have 150sec cd or 90 sec cd is really not a big factor. h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4 luxlaughing.jpg EDIT: Also, with enough of a difference between major Ult cooldowns, it allows a team to force a fight when they know they have an advantage in heavy hitting spells. OK sure. Anivia, Lux, Swain, etc. don't have traditional CDs on ults. Their so-called ults are pretty close to another regular ability. I am just saying that building CDR to reduce Cass/Karthus ults are not worth it. Are you for real? Because the nerf on Karthus ult cooldown makes so a lot of the time, you don't have your ult up by the time the next fights rolls around, especially if the enemy team forces the issue. I wouldn't say CDR is ever really a bad thing to get. Sure, but: 1. You don't absolutely need to fight while your ult is down. 2. CDR synergizes poorly with his other abilities. If I was asked to choose between Grail (say pre-nerfed Grail) and Zhonya on Karthus, I would give you a very simple answer. Back to my point, I don't think CDR is worth investing just to keep the ultimate's CD low for AP mids. By "ultimate" I mean a traditional ultimate with 100ish seconds cooldown. While CDR on ults does help a lot in the laning phase, investing gold to make it cool ~20 seconds faster in the teamfight phase seems worthless, because you don't fight that often and just in case the enemy team wants to fight, your team can usually stall for you. Why is CDR strong on Lux? It's because her R has a 40 seconds CD at rank 3. With CDR investments she can drop it to 24 seconds, which is very close to another basic ability. It's also very spammable due to its long range. Why is CDR strong strong in general? It's because CDR works great on basic abilities (particularly abilities already with very low cooldown) and scales your theoretical DPS in a superlinear way (unlike AP, which scales linearly). Why is CDR poor on Karthus and Cassiopeia? It's because while it cuts down their ults' CD by a lot, 20-30 seconds shorter CD is not terribly significant. Furthermore, their basic abilities do not scale really well with CDR due to how their Es work. The Karthus's R CD nerf is pretty much strictly a laning phase nerf. Why are you obsessing over Karthus and Cassiopeia? There are tons of other mids who would like more high-damage options with AP + CDR. Why are you pretending a team with these champions is not facing another team that has competent players that know/want/can take advantage of these cooldowns? If I'm a team with a Diana or Kat or Eve, etc, and we just went 4 for 4 in a teamfight where Karthus used his ult, we are forcing an objective, and because the ult is down, its no longer an even proposition, its 2 for ace. I am "obsessed" over those champions because the whole thing started with "high DPS AP mids do not scale well with CDR". Karthus and Cassiopeia have the highest DPS for AP mids in the game.
Let me re-quote my initial Statement
AP players don't really even have a "high damage" item anymore. They changed Deathcap to be cheaper but give less ap, which I feel is an odd choice.
Also I feel like they need to figure out what is going on with CDR and mages. I kinda feel liked they have made the assumption that no one wants it anymore. That may be true with masteries, blue buff, etc. Honestly, I'd prefer more CDR itemization and losing a little off of blue buff.
Point 1: I think the Deathcap change may have been a mistake. It makes AP investments harder to make, slot efficiency wise.
Point 2: CDR on mages is really screwed up because of blue buff. I'd like to see more attractive high end CDR items for mages.
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On December 16 2012 09:18 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2012 09:07 Sufficiency wrote:On December 16 2012 09:03 cLutZ wrote:On December 16 2012 08:50 Sufficiency wrote:On December 16 2012 08:27 zer0das wrote:On December 16 2012 08:00 Sufficiency wrote:On December 16 2012 07:38 VirgilSC2 wrote:On December 16 2012 06:49 Sufficiency wrote:On December 16 2012 06:42 cLutZ wrote:On December 16 2012 06:28 Sufficiency wrote:
[quote]
I think the real "high damage" AP champions don't even scale with CDR well. e.g. Anivia, Karthus, Cassiopeia. True true. Although Karthus Ult and Cassio Ult can really make a teamfight and have pretty long cooldowns so it sucks to use them if you don't have that 40%. To be quite honest I was thinking of some of my more played APs like Morgana and Orianna. Morg's Q/W and Ori's W never seem to come off CD as quickly as I would want during those sieges where blue wears off and I can't just go run 1/2 across the map for a blue. CDR on ults are not worth it beyond the laning phase. You almost never fight twice in short intervals after the laning phase of the game, so whether or not you have 150sec cd or 90 sec cd is really not a big factor. h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4h4 luxlaughing.jpg EDIT: Also, with enough of a difference between major Ult cooldowns, it allows a team to force a fight when they know they have an advantage in heavy hitting spells. OK sure. Anivia, Lux, Swain, etc. don't have traditional CDs on ults. Their so-called ults are pretty close to another regular ability. I am just saying that building CDR to reduce Cass/Karthus ults are not worth it. Are you for real? Because the nerf on Karthus ult cooldown makes so a lot of the time, you don't have your ult up by the time the next fights rolls around, especially if the enemy team forces the issue. I wouldn't say CDR is ever really a bad thing to get. Sure, but: 1. You don't absolutely need to fight while your ult is down. 2. CDR synergizes poorly with his other abilities. If I was asked to choose between Grail (say pre-nerfed Grail) and Zhonya on Karthus, I would give you a very simple answer. Back to my point, I don't think CDR is worth investing just to keep the ultimate's CD low for AP mids. By "ultimate" I mean a traditional ultimate with 100ish seconds cooldown. While CDR on ults does help a lot in the laning phase, investing gold to make it cool ~20 seconds faster in the teamfight phase seems worthless, because you don't fight that often and just in case the enemy team wants to fight, your team can usually stall for you. Why is CDR strong on Lux? It's because her R has a 40 seconds CD at rank 3. With CDR investments she can drop it to 24 seconds, which is very close to another basic ability. It's also very spammable due to its long range. Why is CDR strong strong in general? It's because CDR works great on basic abilities (particularly abilities already with very low cooldown) and scales your theoretical DPS in a superlinear way (unlike AP, which scales linearly). Why is CDR poor on Karthus and Cassiopeia? It's because while it cuts down their ults' CD by a lot, 20-30 seconds shorter CD is not terribly significant. Furthermore, their basic abilities do not scale really well with CDR due to how their Es work. The Karthus's R CD nerf is pretty much strictly a laning phase nerf. Why are you obsessing over Karthus and Cassiopeia? There are tons of other mids who would like more high-damage options with AP + CDR. Why are you pretending a team with these champions is not facing another team that has competent players that know/want/can take advantage of these cooldowns? If I'm a team with a Diana or Kat or Eve, etc, and we just went 4 for 4 in a teamfight where Karthus used his ult, we are forcing an objective, and because the ult is down, its no longer an even proposition, its 2 for ace. I am "obsessed" over those champions because the whole thing started with "high DPS AP mids do not scale well with CDR". Karthus and Cassiopeia have the highest DPS for AP mids in the game. Let me re-quote my initial Statement Show nested quote +AP players don't really even have a "high damage" item anymore. They changed Deathcap to be cheaper but give less ap, which I feel is an odd choice.
Also I feel like they need to figure out what is going on with CDR and mages. I kinda feel liked they have made the assumption that no one wants it anymore. That may be true with masteries, blue buff, etc. Honestly, I'd prefer more CDR itemization and losing a little off of blue buff. Point 1: I think the Deathcap change may have been a mistake. It makes AP investments harder to make, slot efficiency wise. Point 2: CDR on mages is really screwed up because of blue buff. I'd like to see more attractive high end CDR items for mages.
Alright. I do agree that CDR might need some rework. I think it should have diminishing returns because it already scales in a superlinear way and synergize with itself, and the CDR cap is too easy to make. If I were a designer at Riot I would make it something close to this:
REALCDR = 40 - 40/(1+CDR)
Basically you start at 0 CDR, and the more CDR bonuses you have, the less actual CDR you get (diminishing returns). With infinitely high CDR bonus, you will achieve 40% CDR. I think this is a far better system and I think Riot has probably considered this before, but it could be a little too complicated to word on the items and too hard for a typical player to understand.
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Mayhap thou shalt consider the option, that instead of telling the other fine gentlemen partaking in this lively debate that "y'all ain't countin cause you be condescendin to me", my humble self politely implores you to take a gander at the slight possibility of you being wrong.
Thank you for your ear, and the valuable time in your day you invested into conversing with my humble self.
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EPT
