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What I feel about Annie is that her kit is mismatched. Her E and R are particularly problematic.
All you can do with her is Flash Tibber initiate and burst someone, then die because you burnt your Flash offensively. Her E is an useless part of her kit that does almost nothing except providing a mechanism that builds her passive stacks and help her laning phase in some edge cases, because defensive steroids do absolutely nothing for a bursty AP that builds almost exclusively damage items.
Did you know her Tibber can actually do damage? Unfortunately, because Annie often goes Kamikaze mode, she will die before Tibber can punch anyone. In fact, currently her R is nothing except another AOE spell that slightly outranges her W.
It's hard to make a sustained damage build for Annie imo. Even though her R provides some sustained damage, the persistent AOE damage aura on her Tibber has the same damage of 35 + 0.2 * AP for all ranks and the diameter of AOE is small.
If I were a designer I would probably do the following:
Increase her Tibber's persistent AOE damage to 40/55/70 + 0.2 * AP, increase the diameter of AOE to 600 to match R's AOE diameter (comparably, Karthus with rank 5 E does 110 + 0.25 * AP damage in a 850 diameter), and change Tibber's autoattacks to do magic damage. In exchange, if Tibber is more than 500 distance away from her, Tibber does 10% less damage per 100 distance (e.g. 20% less damage if Tibber is 700 distance from Annie); Tibber also loses health rapidly if he is more than 1000 distance away from Annie depending on the distance; the leash range is removed.
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On December 21 2012 15:58 Sufficiency wrote:
What I feel about Annie is that her kit is mismatched. Her E and R are particularly problematic.
All you can do with her is Flash Tibber initiate and burst someone, then die because you burnt your Flash offensively. Her E is an useless part of her kit that does almost nothing except providing a mechanism that builds her passive stacks and help her laning phase in some edge cases, because defensive steroids do absolutely nothing for a bursty AP that builds almost exclusively damage items.
Did you know her Tibber can actually do damage? Unfortunately, because Annie often goes Kamikaze mode, she will die before Tibber can punch anyone. In fact, currently her R is nothing except another AOE spell that slightly outranges her W.
It's hard to make a sustained damage build for Annie imo. Even though her R provides some sustained damage, the persistent AOE damage aura on her Tibber has the same damage of 35 + 0.2 * AP for all ranks and the diameter of AOE is small.
If I were a designer I would probably do the following:
Increase her Tibber's persistent AOE damage to 40/55/70 + 0.2 * AP, increase the diameter of AOE to 600 to match R's AOE diameter (comparably, Karthus with rank 5 E does 110 + 0.25 * AP damage in a 850 diameter), and change Tibber's autoattacks to do magic damage. In exchange, if Tibber is more than 500 distance away from her, Tibber does 10% less damage per 100 distance (e.g. 20% less damage if Tibber is 700 distance from Annie); Tibber also loses health rapidly if he is more than 1000 distance away from Annie depending on the distance; the leash range is removed.
I'd just change her passive. Its too easy to abuse for the enemy, not good enough for annie. Basically Annie is seemingly balanced on her passive being on-demand, but it is not on demand.
Maybe if they moved it to the next spell after you activate E, then make the passive her passive on Q.
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On December 21 2012 16:13 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2012 15:58 Sufficiency wrote:
What I feel about Annie is that her kit is mismatched. Her E and R are particularly problematic.
All you can do with her is Flash Tibber initiate and burst someone, then die because you burnt your Flash offensively. Her E is an useless part of her kit that does almost nothing except providing a mechanism that builds her passive stacks and help her laning phase in some edge cases, because defensive steroids do absolutely nothing for a bursty AP that builds almost exclusively damage items.
Did you know her Tibber can actually do damage? Unfortunately, because Annie often goes Kamikaze mode, she will die before Tibber can punch anyone. In fact, currently her R is nothing except another AOE spell that slightly outranges her W.
It's hard to make a sustained damage build for Annie imo. Even though her R provides some sustained damage, the persistent AOE damage aura on her Tibber has the same damage of 35 + 0.2 * AP for all ranks and the diameter of AOE is small.
If I were a designer I would probably do the following:
Increase her Tibber's persistent AOE damage to 40/55/70 + 0.2 * AP, increase the diameter of AOE to 600 to match R's AOE diameter (comparably, Karthus with rank 5 E does 110 + 0.25 * AP damage in a 850 diameter), and change Tibber's autoattacks to do magic damage. In exchange, if Tibber is more than 500 distance away from her, Tibber does 10% less damage per 100 distance (e.g. 20% less damage if Tibber is 700 distance from Annie); Tibber also loses health rapidly if he is more than 1000 distance away from Annie depending on the distance; the leash range is removed. I'd just change her passive. Its too easy to abuse for the enemy, not good enough for annie. Basically Annie is seemingly balanced on her passive being on-demand, but it is not on demand. Maybe if they moved it to the next spell after you activate E, then make the passive her passive on Q.
If her passive was on demand she would be OP spamming Q on enemies and winning trades 100% of the time no matter what.
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On December 21 2012 16:16 Zooper31 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2012 16:13 cLutZ wrote:On December 21 2012 15:58 Sufficiency wrote:
What I feel about Annie is that her kit is mismatched. Her E and R are particularly problematic.
All you can do with her is Flash Tibber initiate and burst someone, then die because you burnt your Flash offensively. Her E is an useless part of her kit that does almost nothing except providing a mechanism that builds her passive stacks and help her laning phase in some edge cases, because defensive steroids do absolutely nothing for a bursty AP that builds almost exclusively damage items.
Did you know her Tibber can actually do damage? Unfortunately, because Annie often goes Kamikaze mode, she will die before Tibber can punch anyone. In fact, currently her R is nothing except another AOE spell that slightly outranges her W.
It's hard to make a sustained damage build for Annie imo. Even though her R provides some sustained damage, the persistent AOE damage aura on her Tibber has the same damage of 35 + 0.2 * AP for all ranks and the diameter of AOE is small.
If I were a designer I would probably do the following:
Increase her Tibber's persistent AOE damage to 40/55/70 + 0.2 * AP, increase the diameter of AOE to 600 to match R's AOE diameter (comparably, Karthus with rank 5 E does 110 + 0.25 * AP damage in a 850 diameter), and change Tibber's autoattacks to do magic damage. In exchange, if Tibber is more than 500 distance away from her, Tibber does 10% less damage per 100 distance (e.g. 20% less damage if Tibber is 700 distance from Annie); Tibber also loses health rapidly if he is more than 1000 distance away from Annie depending on the distance; the leash range is removed. I'd just change her passive. Its too easy to abuse for the enemy, not good enough for annie. Basically Annie is seemingly balanced on her passive being on-demand, but it is not on demand. Maybe if they moved it to the next spell after you activate E, then make the passive her passive on Q. If her passive was on demand she would be OP spamming Q on enemies and winning trades 100% of the time no matter what.
Yes well, right now her passive is doesn't fit the game of LOL.
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On December 21 2012 16:13 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2012 15:58 Sufficiency wrote:
What I feel about Annie is that her kit is mismatched. Her E and R are particularly problematic.
All you can do with her is Flash Tibber initiate and burst someone, then die because you burnt your Flash offensively. Her E is an useless part of her kit that does almost nothing except providing a mechanism that builds her passive stacks and help her laning phase in some edge cases, because defensive steroids do absolutely nothing for a bursty AP that builds almost exclusively damage items.
Did you know her Tibber can actually do damage? Unfortunately, because Annie often goes Kamikaze mode, she will die before Tibber can punch anyone. In fact, currently her R is nothing except another AOE spell that slightly outranges her W.
It's hard to make a sustained damage build for Annie imo. Even though her R provides some sustained damage, the persistent AOE damage aura on her Tibber has the same damage of 35 + 0.2 * AP for all ranks and the diameter of AOE is small.
If I were a designer I would probably do the following:
Increase her Tibber's persistent AOE damage to 40/55/70 + 0.2 * AP, increase the diameter of AOE to 600 to match R's AOE diameter (comparably, Karthus with rank 5 E does 110 + 0.25 * AP damage in a 850 diameter), and change Tibber's autoattacks to do magic damage. In exchange, if Tibber is more than 500 distance away from her, Tibber does 10% less damage per 100 distance (e.g. 20% less damage if Tibber is 700 distance from Annie); Tibber also loses health rapidly if he is more than 1000 distance away from Annie depending on the distance; the leash range is removed. I'd just change her passive. Its too easy to abuse for the enemy, not good enough for annie. Basically Annie is seemingly balanced on her passive being on-demand, but it is not on demand. Maybe if they moved it to the next spell after you activate E, then make the passive her passive on Q.
I don't like this idea. It's like saying "Brand relies too much on skillshots, so let's remove all of his skillshots so everything is easy and point-and-click". Her passive is fine imo; it's just that her E does not help her at all beside building a stack and her R is really no different from another W due to weak scaling on Tibber.
I think her R needs some buffs (such as my proposal above), so an Annie play can choose to play bursty (same as all Annies do currently), or play sustained damage Tibber bot, build survivability, and kite in teamfights.
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I find it curious that everyone seems to just automatically assume annie is like.... leblanc. When her signature move is to AoE stun and her two nukes are on a 4 sec and 8 sec base CD. her initiate is essentially aoe stun for 2 seconds, then 5 seconds later a second aoe stun. (R>Q>W>E>Q>W)
iounno. she's a baseline mage, not a baseline assasin. maybe everyone's too used to league of dcap.
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On December 21 2012 16:20 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2012 16:16 Zooper31 wrote:On December 21 2012 16:13 cLutZ wrote:On December 21 2012 15:58 Sufficiency wrote:
What I feel about Annie is that her kit is mismatched. Her E and R are particularly problematic.
All you can do with her is Flash Tibber initiate and burst someone, then die because you burnt your Flash offensively. Her E is an useless part of her kit that does almost nothing except providing a mechanism that builds her passive stacks and help her laning phase in some edge cases, because defensive steroids do absolutely nothing for a bursty AP that builds almost exclusively damage items.
Did you know her Tibber can actually do damage? Unfortunately, because Annie often goes Kamikaze mode, she will die before Tibber can punch anyone. In fact, currently her R is nothing except another AOE spell that slightly outranges her W.
It's hard to make a sustained damage build for Annie imo. Even though her R provides some sustained damage, the persistent AOE damage aura on her Tibber has the same damage of 35 + 0.2 * AP for all ranks and the diameter of AOE is small.
If I were a designer I would probably do the following:
Increase her Tibber's persistent AOE damage to 40/55/70 + 0.2 * AP, increase the diameter of AOE to 600 to match R's AOE diameter (comparably, Karthus with rank 5 E does 110 + 0.25 * AP damage in a 850 diameter), and change Tibber's autoattacks to do magic damage. In exchange, if Tibber is more than 500 distance away from her, Tibber does 10% less damage per 100 distance (e.g. 20% less damage if Tibber is 700 distance from Annie); Tibber also loses health rapidly if he is more than 1000 distance away from Annie depending on the distance; the leash range is removed. I'd just change her passive. Its too easy to abuse for the enemy, not good enough for annie. Basically Annie is seemingly balanced on her passive being on-demand, but it is not on demand. Maybe if they moved it to the next spell after you activate E, then make the passive her passive on Q. If her passive was on demand she would be OP spamming Q on enemies and winning trades 100% of the time no matter what. Yes well, right now her passive is doesn't fit the game of LOL.
Who are you to say that though. Since Annie has been released riot has seen it fit for her passive to remain basically unchanged, sure they reduced it by 1 spell but mechanics are the same. You use spells charge up stun, then go in for a trade or zone champs out of cs. I think it's a perfectly fine passive and way better than alot of champs. You can't change her passive without doing a complete redesign of the champion. It would have to be on Jax or Xin level.
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On December 21 2012 16:39 Zooper31 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2012 16:20 cLutZ wrote:On December 21 2012 16:16 Zooper31 wrote:On December 21 2012 16:13 cLutZ wrote:On December 21 2012 15:58 Sufficiency wrote:
What I feel about Annie is that her kit is mismatched. Her E and R are particularly problematic.
All you can do with her is Flash Tibber initiate and burst someone, then die because you burnt your Flash offensively. Her E is an useless part of her kit that does almost nothing except providing a mechanism that builds her passive stacks and help her laning phase in some edge cases, because defensive steroids do absolutely nothing for a bursty AP that builds almost exclusively damage items.
Did you know her Tibber can actually do damage? Unfortunately, because Annie often goes Kamikaze mode, she will die before Tibber can punch anyone. In fact, currently her R is nothing except another AOE spell that slightly outranges her W.
It's hard to make a sustained damage build for Annie imo. Even though her R provides some sustained damage, the persistent AOE damage aura on her Tibber has the same damage of 35 + 0.2 * AP for all ranks and the diameter of AOE is small.
If I were a designer I would probably do the following:
Increase her Tibber's persistent AOE damage to 40/55/70 + 0.2 * AP, increase the diameter of AOE to 600 to match R's AOE diameter (comparably, Karthus with rank 5 E does 110 + 0.25 * AP damage in a 850 diameter), and change Tibber's autoattacks to do magic damage. In exchange, if Tibber is more than 500 distance away from her, Tibber does 10% less damage per 100 distance (e.g. 20% less damage if Tibber is 700 distance from Annie); Tibber also loses health rapidly if he is more than 1000 distance away from Annie depending on the distance; the leash range is removed. I'd just change her passive. Its too easy to abuse for the enemy, not good enough for annie. Basically Annie is seemingly balanced on her passive being on-demand, but it is not on demand. Maybe if they moved it to the next spell after you activate E, then make the passive her passive on Q. If her passive was on demand she would be OP spamming Q on enemies and winning trades 100% of the time no matter what. Yes well, right now her passive is doesn't fit the game of LOL. Who are you to say that though. Since Annie has been released riot has seen it fit for her passive to remain basically unchanged, sure they reduced it by 1 spell but mechanics are the same. You use spells charge up stun, then go in for a trade or zone champs out of cs. I think it's a perfectly fine passive and way better than alot of champs. You can't change her passive without doing a complete redesign of the champion. It would have to be on Jax or Xin level.
It did not reduce by 1 spell. It was a wording change.
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I'm never sure how to feel about Annie. She's probably my 2nd best AP mid, but she does need tweaking still. Not a lot, but those arguing to play her as a sustained caster I think are hoping for something her kit doesn't allow. Her lack of mobility and not-so-great spell range mean she just kinda' gets in there and hopes to blow people up. I think in lane playing her more sustain-like is a good idea and that's how you win lane; you just abuse your stun combo and long auto rangeto get a life lead enough to zone them for fear of a jungle gank or a full combo.
Part of me has wanted her E to provide a very short boost of speed, but I'm pretty sure that would probably be OP. I think short of some weird reworks (like the Tibbers changes brought up) it's likely she'll stay as she is for quite a while for fear of overbuffs.
random edit: BTW, anybody done much rammus jungling in s3. If so, any suggestions/thoughts?
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On December 21 2012 16:48 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2012 16:39 Zooper31 wrote:On December 21 2012 16:20 cLutZ wrote:On December 21 2012 16:16 Zooper31 wrote:On December 21 2012 16:13 cLutZ wrote:On December 21 2012 15:58 Sufficiency wrote:
What I feel about Annie is that her kit is mismatched. Her E and R are particularly problematic.
All you can do with her is Flash Tibber initiate and burst someone, then die because you burnt your Flash offensively. Her E is an useless part of her kit that does almost nothing except providing a mechanism that builds her passive stacks and help her laning phase in some edge cases, because defensive steroids do absolutely nothing for a bursty AP that builds almost exclusively damage items.
Did you know her Tibber can actually do damage? Unfortunately, because Annie often goes Kamikaze mode, she will die before Tibber can punch anyone. In fact, currently her R is nothing except another AOE spell that slightly outranges her W.
It's hard to make a sustained damage build for Annie imo. Even though her R provides some sustained damage, the persistent AOE damage aura on her Tibber has the same damage of 35 + 0.2 * AP for all ranks and the diameter of AOE is small.
If I were a designer I would probably do the following:
Increase her Tibber's persistent AOE damage to 40/55/70 + 0.2 * AP, increase the diameter of AOE to 600 to match R's AOE diameter (comparably, Karthus with rank 5 E does 110 + 0.25 * AP damage in a 850 diameter), and change Tibber's autoattacks to do magic damage. In exchange, if Tibber is more than 500 distance away from her, Tibber does 10% less damage per 100 distance (e.g. 20% less damage if Tibber is 700 distance from Annie); Tibber also loses health rapidly if he is more than 1000 distance away from Annie depending on the distance; the leash range is removed. I'd just change her passive. Its too easy to abuse for the enemy, not good enough for annie. Basically Annie is seemingly balanced on her passive being on-demand, but it is not on demand. Maybe if they moved it to the next spell after you activate E, then make the passive her passive on Q. If her passive was on demand she would be OP spamming Q on enemies and winning trades 100% of the time no matter what. Yes well, right now her passive is doesn't fit the game of LOL. Who are you to say that though. Since Annie has been released riot has seen it fit for her passive to remain basically unchanged, sure they reduced it by 1 spell but mechanics are the same. You use spells charge up stun, then go in for a trade or zone champs out of cs. I think it's a perfectly fine passive and way better than alot of champs. You can't change her passive without doing a complete redesign of the champion. It would have to be on Jax or Xin level. It did not reduce by 1 spell. It was a wording change.
When you spawn from death or start the game, the first stun charge up takes one fewer spell that it did before the change. All subsequent stun charges take the old amount of spells to charge up.
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On December 21 2012 16:30 Kaneh wrote:
I find it curious that everyone seems to just automatically assume annie is like.... leblanc. When her signature move is to AoE stun and her two nukes are on a 4 sec and 8 sec base CD. her initiate is essentially aoe stun for 2 seconds, then 5 seconds later a second aoe stun. (R>Q>W>E>Q>W)
iounno. she's a baseline mage, not a baseline assasin. maybe everyone's too used to league of dcap.
Honestly, I think the real baseline mage is Orianna. Compare Annie to Orianna. Is there a single thing Annie does better? Annie's damage is slightly better, but given the range difference it's practically irrelevant. Annie's ult is instantaneous, but its a lot easier to use Ori's ult in practice. But would you say Ori is way better than other APs? I wouldn't.
The average AP these days has tons of utility and it costs them almost nothing in terms of damage or range. Diana was the living embodiment of this, and not the moon.
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Pretty funny how Annie is considered useless and almost never played nowadays... In early 2011, she was considered very OP and was in almost every single game (in normal games), constant threads on the forums whining about her being too stronk to play against.
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Early 2011 Didn't have Brand, Orianna, Talon, Xerath, Fizz, Ahri, Viktor, Ziggs, Zyra, Diana, or Syndra. If you stay the same, and other stronger picks show up, you're comparatively weaker. And it's not just limited to the new mid lane picks effecting her performance.
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Just wanted to say that her E fucks up fiora really, really badly lol.
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On December 21 2012 17:20 Tobberoth wrote:
Pretty funny how Annie is considered useless and almost never played nowadays... In early 2011, she was considered very OP and was in almost every single game (in normal games), constant threads on the forums whining about her being too stronk to play against.
She had some AP ratio nerfs, Tibbers had a double damage bug that would proc sometimes (and was present in the game for like two months), and frankly she's probably still just as abusive in solo queue but there are champions who faceroll even harder than her now (Ahri and Diana are the best two examples off the top of my head).
Also, Brand was out during Annie's hayday of being considered OP by the general community. Brand was generally considered one of the strongest counters to Annie in lane.
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On December 21 2012 16:39 Zooper31 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2012 16:20 cLutZ wrote:On December 21 2012 16:16 Zooper31 wrote:On December 21 2012 16:13 cLutZ wrote:On December 21 2012 15:58 Sufficiency wrote:
What I feel about Annie is that her kit is mismatched. Her E and R are particularly problematic.
All you can do with her is Flash Tibber initiate and burst someone, then die because you burnt your Flash offensively. Her E is an useless part of her kit that does almost nothing except providing a mechanism that builds her passive stacks and help her laning phase in some edge cases, because defensive steroids do absolutely nothing for a bursty AP that builds almost exclusively damage items.
Did you know her Tibber can actually do damage? Unfortunately, because Annie often goes Kamikaze mode, she will die before Tibber can punch anyone. In fact, currently her R is nothing except another AOE spell that slightly outranges her W.
It's hard to make a sustained damage build for Annie imo. Even though her R provides some sustained damage, the persistent AOE damage aura on her Tibber has the same damage of 35 + 0.2 * AP for all ranks and the diameter of AOE is small.
If I were a designer I would probably do the following:
Increase her Tibber's persistent AOE damage to 40/55/70 + 0.2 * AP, increase the diameter of AOE to 600 to match R's AOE diameter (comparably, Karthus with rank 5 E does 110 + 0.25 * AP damage in a 850 diameter), and change Tibber's autoattacks to do magic damage. In exchange, if Tibber is more than 500 distance away from her, Tibber does 10% less damage per 100 distance (e.g. 20% less damage if Tibber is 700 distance from Annie); Tibber also loses health rapidly if he is more than 1000 distance away from Annie depending on the distance; the leash range is removed. I'd just change her passive. Its too easy to abuse for the enemy, not good enough for annie. Basically Annie is seemingly balanced on her passive being on-demand, but it is not on demand. Maybe if they moved it to the next spell after you activate E, then make the passive her passive on Q. If her passive was on demand she would be OP spamming Q on enemies and winning trades 100% of the time no matter what. Yes well, right now her passive is doesn't fit the game of LOL. Who are you to say that though. Since Annie has been released riot has seen it fit for her passive to remain basically unchanged, sure they reduced it by 1 spell but mechanics are the same. You use spells charge up stun, then go in for a trade or zone champs out of cs. I think it's a perfectly fine passive and way better than alot of champs. You can't change her passive without doing a complete redesign of the champion. It would have to be on Jax or Xin level.
IDK why people were ever QQing about annie, because that is mostly before my time. But here is how you counter her:
Click on annie. Trade if 0-2 charges. Push if 3-4 charges. /gg
On December 21 2012 17:28 Inschato wrote:
Early 2011 Didn't have Brand, Orianna, Talon, Xerath, Fizz, Ahri, Viktor, Ziggs, Zyra, Diana, or Syndra. If you stay the same, and other stronger picks show up, you're comparatively weaker. And it's not just limited to the new mid lane picks effecting her performance.
I'd also bold Xerath Ziggs and Viktor. Long range skillshots mean you never need to be in range of a non-tibbers stun combo.
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hey guys it looks like my team made it to the s3 live qualifier in la
~ just thought i'd share the good news
hurrah!
not official yet, but it looks like that's how the seeds will play out
yay! 
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sorry for being ignorant but which team are you playing for/coaching/managing.
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On December 21 2012 18:12 AsnSensation wrote:
sorry for being ignorant but which team are you playing for/coaching/managing.
SG - Severity Gaming
http://www.severitygaming.com/
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EPT
