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I'm watching Salce's vod for some of their epik gamer matches. How is Westrice is SO bad...?
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United States15536 Posts
On December 22 2012 00:32 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 00:27 AsmodeusXI wrote:On December 22 2012 00:19 Requizen wrote:
Alright, on Vi, I need a bit of input. What are my matchups that I can fight into? She doesn't seem nearly as safe to just farm with like Riven (who can dash in and out) or Jayce (Ranged mode). I went against Olaf and Garen, and I felt each time I went in to farm, they dumped on me. If I tried to duel to force them out, they out damaged me and were able to get more health back through regen mechanics.
Were these just bad matchups? Who do you think you can/can't pick her into? Maybe it would be good to go with what someone suggested earlier and max W and E for more dueling power. Barring anything else, maybe there's a few matchups where you just have to use E to farm? Entirely possible. I maxed Q vs Garen (though I might need the mobility for their jungle Mao). I maxed W vs Olaf, but I felt like every time I went in to trade he just landed QE and walk away, and later he could just QE and initiate and I couldn't outdamage him. Though I really shouldn't have tried, Olaf isn't really someone you can duel.
I do really like the Q max, honestly, just because having that near instant escape up again is really great. But on paper it does seem like E/W would be better for trades, and E definitely for "long-range" farm and harass. But also, Olaf. =/ Can't do much against that. Maybe build early DShield and hope your passive does work? I dunno if there's a solution there.
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On December 22 2012 00:35 AsmodeusXI wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 00:32 Requizen wrote:On December 22 2012 00:27 AsmodeusXI wrote:On December 22 2012 00:19 Requizen wrote:
Alright, on Vi, I need a bit of input. What are my matchups that I can fight into? She doesn't seem nearly as safe to just farm with like Riven (who can dash in and out) or Jayce (Ranged mode). I went against Olaf and Garen, and I felt each time I went in to farm, they dumped on me. If I tried to duel to force them out, they out damaged me and were able to get more health back through regen mechanics.
Were these just bad matchups? Who do you think you can/can't pick her into? Maybe it would be good to go with what someone suggested earlier and max W and E for more dueling power. Barring anything else, maybe there's a few matchups where you just have to use E to farm? Entirely possible. I maxed Q vs Garen (though I might need the mobility for their jungle Mao). I maxed W vs Olaf, but I felt like every time I went in to trade he just landed QE and walk away, and later he could just QE and initiate and I couldn't outdamage him. Though I really shouldn't have tried, Olaf isn't really someone you can duel. I do really like the Q max, honestly, just because having that near instant escape up again is really great. But on paper it does seem like E/W would be better for trades, and E definitely for "long-range" farm and harass. But also, Olaf. =/ Can't do much against that. Maybe build early DShield and hope your passive does work? I dunno if there's a solution there.
I got frustrated with Q because it felt like damn near everything interrupted the channel/powerup. Are you just firing it off immediately for the quick gap opener/closer or are you charging it up? Especially against Garen, he would just save the silence for the exact second I started powering it up. Mao's root also interrupted it and put it on CD, which I thought was odd.
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On December 21 2012 23:35 Live2Win wrote:
THE SECRET'S OUT! Helios's interview: "I wanted to play Hec, because he's secretly OP right now, but my teammates wanted to keep it on the DL" (which is dumb now cuz now people know)
They're lucky no one listens to me.
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United States15536 Posts
On December 22 2012 00:40 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 00:35 AsmodeusXI wrote:On December 22 2012 00:32 Requizen wrote:On December 22 2012 00:27 AsmodeusXI wrote:On December 22 2012 00:19 Requizen wrote:
Alright, on Vi, I need a bit of input. What are my matchups that I can fight into? She doesn't seem nearly as safe to just farm with like Riven (who can dash in and out) or Jayce (Ranged mode). I went against Olaf and Garen, and I felt each time I went in to farm, they dumped on me. If I tried to duel to force them out, they out damaged me and were able to get more health back through regen mechanics.
Were these just bad matchups? Who do you think you can/can't pick her into? Maybe it would be good to go with what someone suggested earlier and max W and E for more dueling power. Barring anything else, maybe there's a few matchups where you just have to use E to farm? Entirely possible. I maxed Q vs Garen (though I might need the mobility for their jungle Mao). I maxed W vs Olaf, but I felt like every time I went in to trade he just landed QE and walk away, and later he could just QE and initiate and I couldn't outdamage him. Though I really shouldn't have tried, Olaf isn't really someone you can duel. I do really like the Q max, honestly, just because having that near instant escape up again is really great. But on paper it does seem like E/W would be better for trades, and E definitely for "long-range" farm and harass. But also, Olaf. =/ Can't do much against that. Maybe build early DShield and hope your passive does work? I dunno if there's a solution there. I got frustrated with Q because it felt like damn near everything interrupted the channel/powerup. Are you just firing it off immediately for the quick gap opener/closer or are you charging it up? Especially against Garen, he would just save the silence for the exact second I started powering it up. Mao's root also interrupted it and put it on CD, which I thought was odd.
I did a lot of charging in brush, but tbh the two games I played were against a terrible Mao top and another Vi, who started E. With Q I could constantly jump on her and my Q cds were shorter than her E's were. So it felt like godmode. But I think the general solution is bush charging if possible, though I understand that makes the escape harder, if not impossible. The Twisted Advance thing seems like a bug.
On December 22 2012 00:46 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2012 23:35 Live2Win wrote:
THE SECRET'S OUT! Helios's interview: "I wanted to play Hec, because he's secretly OP right now, but my teammates wanted to keep it on the DL" (which is dumb now cuz now people know) They're lucky no one listens to me.
Soniv did... eventually.
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United States23745 Posts
On December 21 2012 22:26 WhiteDog wrote:
I'm getting tired with all these nerf / up. I never bought rengar, but what they did to that champ is just ridiculous Why even getting a PBE if you can't understand that the nerf you made are bad ? The constant up and down that new champ are getting everytime shows that either Riot is inexperienced and rush things up or that they do that to make sure people actually buy those characters.
Also that Riven nerf, wtf.
Also some champ will never be balanced for solo q. Support at 1500 elo will never buy pink for evelynn, team will never split before amumu, no solo q team will ever know how to play vs karthus (I have a ridic 100% win rate on Karthus despite being really bad, I always lose my lane stupidly, sometime even feeding, but still focus on farming, then win later on when the whole team feel like doing their business in my defile).
If someone can't effectively change their tactics based on the presence of a certain champ then they don't really deserve to be a higher Elo. Especially if people aren't willing to learn from their mistakes. If they get wrecked by Eve and don't buy a pink ward next game to deal with her then they haven't really improved and probably deserve to lose.
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On December 22 2012 00:40 Requizen wrote:
I got frustrated with Q because it felt like damn near everything interrupted the channel/powerup. Are you just firing it off immediately for the quick gap opener/closer or are you charging it up? Especially against Garen, he would just save the silence for the exact second I started powering it up. Mao's root also interrupted it and put it on CD, which I thought was odd.
I've noticed this too and it is very frustrating. Any root / displacement (my experience was with Lux.) stops your Q and puts it on CD instead of causing it to fizzle. So not only is your Q charging very apparent, there's plenty of ways to completely stop it.
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On December 22 2012 00:47 AsmodeusXI wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 00:40 Requizen wrote:On December 22 2012 00:35 AsmodeusXI wrote:On December 22 2012 00:32 Requizen wrote:On December 22 2012 00:27 AsmodeusXI wrote:On December 22 2012 00:19 Requizen wrote:
Alright, on Vi, I need a bit of input. What are my matchups that I can fight into? She doesn't seem nearly as safe to just farm with like Riven (who can dash in and out) or Jayce (Ranged mode). I went against Olaf and Garen, and I felt each time I went in to farm, they dumped on me. If I tried to duel to force them out, they out damaged me and were able to get more health back through regen mechanics.
Were these just bad matchups? Who do you think you can/can't pick her into? Maybe it would be good to go with what someone suggested earlier and max W and E for more dueling power. Barring anything else, maybe there's a few matchups where you just have to use E to farm? Entirely possible. I maxed Q vs Garen (though I might need the mobility for their jungle Mao). I maxed W vs Olaf, but I felt like every time I went in to trade he just landed QE and walk away, and later he could just QE and initiate and I couldn't outdamage him. Though I really shouldn't have tried, Olaf isn't really someone you can duel. I do really like the Q max, honestly, just because having that near instant escape up again is really great. But on paper it does seem like E/W would be better for trades, and E definitely for "long-range" farm and harass. But also, Olaf. =/ Can't do much against that. Maybe build early DShield and hope your passive does work? I dunno if there's a solution there. I got frustrated with Q because it felt like damn near everything interrupted the channel/powerup. Are you just firing it off immediately for the quick gap opener/closer or are you charging it up? Especially against Garen, he would just save the silence for the exact second I started powering it up. Mao's root also interrupted it and put it on CD, which I thought was odd. I did a lot of charging in brush, but tbh the two games I played were against a terrible Mao top and another Vi, who started E. With Q I could constantly jump on her and my Q cds were shorter than her E's were. So it felt like godmode. But I think the general solution is bush charging if possible, though I understand that makes the escape harder, if not impossible. The Twisted Advance thing seems like a bug. Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 00:46 Seuss wrote:On December 21 2012 23:35 Live2Win wrote:
THE SECRET'S OUT! Helios's interview: "I wanted to play Hec, because he's secretly OP right now, but my teammates wanted to keep it on the DL" (which is dumb now cuz now people know) They're lucky no one listens to me. Soniv did... eventually.
Lol, no. Monte and I have discussions every once in a while about champs when they get released. We ruled Hecarim strong a looooooooooooooooooong time ago. Same with Nautilus on his release.
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Funny fact of the day mid is sooo easy and almost impossible to die at, if you've played top lane with a character that is quite easy to gank for a long time. Since when you go mid you barely feel the need to ward since you won't get into positions where you will be surceptible to ganks. However, people will complain at you when mid comes and ganks other lanes... it's sad. Agree or disagree?
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To be fair, Vi's Q is only good to chase opponent or when charged outside of the vision, any other situation than that it seems lack luster and way too obvious to be of any help.
A quick charge can be good in team fight as it interupt a little but that's it.
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United States15536 Posts
On December 22 2012 00:57 jcarlsoniv wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 00:47 AsmodeusXI wrote:On December 22 2012 00:40 Requizen wrote:On December 22 2012 00:35 AsmodeusXI wrote:On December 22 2012 00:32 Requizen wrote:On December 22 2012 00:27 AsmodeusXI wrote:On December 22 2012 00:19 Requizen wrote:
Alright, on Vi, I need a bit of input. What are my matchups that I can fight into? She doesn't seem nearly as safe to just farm with like Riven (who can dash in and out) or Jayce (Ranged mode). I went against Olaf and Garen, and I felt each time I went in to farm, they dumped on me. If I tried to duel to force them out, they out damaged me and were able to get more health back through regen mechanics.
Were these just bad matchups? Who do you think you can/can't pick her into? Maybe it would be good to go with what someone suggested earlier and max W and E for more dueling power. Barring anything else, maybe there's a few matchups where you just have to use E to farm? Entirely possible. I maxed Q vs Garen (though I might need the mobility for their jungle Mao). I maxed W vs Olaf, but I felt like every time I went in to trade he just landed QE and walk away, and later he could just QE and initiate and I couldn't outdamage him. Though I really shouldn't have tried, Olaf isn't really someone you can duel. I do really like the Q max, honestly, just because having that near instant escape up again is really great. But on paper it does seem like E/W would be better for trades, and E definitely for "long-range" farm and harass. But also, Olaf. =/ Can't do much against that. Maybe build early DShield and hope your passive does work? I dunno if there's a solution there. I got frustrated with Q because it felt like damn near everything interrupted the channel/powerup. Are you just firing it off immediately for the quick gap opener/closer or are you charging it up? Especially against Garen, he would just save the silence for the exact second I started powering it up. Mao's root also interrupted it and put it on CD, which I thought was odd. I did a lot of charging in brush, but tbh the two games I played were against a terrible Mao top and another Vi, who started E. With Q I could constantly jump on her and my Q cds were shorter than her E's were. So it felt like godmode. But I think the general solution is bush charging if possible, though I understand that makes the escape harder, if not impossible. The Twisted Advance thing seems like a bug. On December 22 2012 00:46 Seuss wrote:On December 21 2012 23:35 Live2Win wrote:
THE SECRET'S OUT! Helios's interview: "I wanted to play Hec, because he's secretly OP right now, but my teammates wanted to keep it on the DL" (which is dumb now cuz now people know) They're lucky no one listens to me. Soniv did... eventually. Lol, no. Monte and I have discussions every once in a while about champs when they get released. We ruled Hecarim strong a looooooooooooooooooong time ago. Same with Nautilus on his release.
Wait... LoL things happen outside of this forum? Impossible.
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On December 22 2012 01:07 Yttrasil wrote:
Funny fact of the day mid is sooo easy and almost impossible to die at, if you've played top lane with a character that is quite easy to gank for a long time. Since when you go mid you barely feel the need to ward since you won't get into positions where you will be surceptible to ganks. However, people will complain at you when mid comes and ganks other lanes... it's sad. Agree or disagree?
Uh...if you're not warding as a mid, you're doing something wrong.
I buy two wards almost every single back and toss one at the enemy banana bush (one leading into their blue buff), and at the enemy wraiths. Not only does it protect your ass from any ganks coming, it gives so much map vision for your team.
People should complain at you if you aren't warding.
tl;dr ward goddammit
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On December 22 2012 00:32 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 00:27 AsmodeusXI wrote:On December 22 2012 00:19 Requizen wrote:
Alright, on Vi, I need a bit of input. What are my matchups that I can fight into? She doesn't seem nearly as safe to just farm with like Riven (who can dash in and out) or Jayce (Ranged mode). I went against Olaf and Garen, and I felt each time I went in to farm, they dumped on me. If I tried to duel to force them out, they out damaged me and were able to get more health back through regen mechanics.
Were these just bad matchups? Who do you think you can/can't pick her into? Maybe it would be good to go with what someone suggested earlier and max W and E for more dueling power. Barring anything else, maybe there's a few matchups where you just have to use E to farm? Entirely possible. I maxed Q vs Garen (though I might need the mobility for their jungle Mao). I maxed W vs Olaf, but I felt like every time I went in to trade he just landed QE and walk away, and later he could just QE and initiate and I couldn't outdamage him. Though I really shouldn't have tried, Olaf isn't really someone you can duel.
I assume you've tried to absorb, at least some of, the true damage with your shield?
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On December 22 2012 01:25 jcarlsoniv wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 01:07 Yttrasil wrote:
Funny fact of the day mid is sooo easy and almost impossible to die at, if you've played top lane with a character that is quite easy to gank for a long time. Since when you go mid you barely feel the need to ward since you won't get into positions where you will be surceptible to ganks. However, people will complain at you when mid comes and ganks other lanes... it's sad. Agree or disagree? Uh...if you're not warding as a mid, you're doing something wrong. I buy two wards almost every single back and toss one at the enemy banana bush (one leading into their blue buff), and at the enemy wraiths. Not only does it protect your ass from any ganks coming, it gives so much map vision for your team. People should complain at you if you aren't warding. tl;dr ward goddammit
agree,mid is the easiest lane for farming by far.If you aren't buying at least one ward on every back you are doing something wrong.Warding the entrance to your jungle is beyond helpful to everyone.
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On December 22 2012 01:46 TheKefka wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 01:25 jcarlsoniv wrote:On December 22 2012 01:07 Yttrasil wrote:
Funny fact of the day mid is sooo easy and almost impossible to die at, if you've played top lane with a character that is quite easy to gank for a long time. Since when you go mid you barely feel the need to ward since you won't get into positions where you will be surceptible to ganks. However, people will complain at you when mid comes and ganks other lanes... it's sad. Agree or disagree? Uh...if you're not warding as a mid, you're doing something wrong. I buy two wards almost every single back and toss one at the enemy banana bush (one leading into their blue buff), and at the enemy wraiths. Not only does it protect your ass from any ganks coming, it gives so much map vision for your team. People should complain at you if you aren't warding. tl;dr ward goddammit agree,mid is the easiest lane for farming by far.If you aren't buying at least one ward on every back you are doing something wrong.Warding the entrance to your jungle is beyond helpful to everyone.
Exactly. If you're used to playing those easy to gank top laners you should understand how nice it is to have more map vision. If you can farm well and have lots of money, help out the team! Buy wards.
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On December 22 2012 01:46 TheKefka wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 01:25 jcarlsoniv wrote:On December 22 2012 01:07 Yttrasil wrote:
Funny fact of the day mid is sooo easy and almost impossible to die at, if you've played top lane with a character that is quite easy to gank for a long time. Since when you go mid you barely feel the need to ward since you won't get into positions where you will be surceptible to ganks. However, people will complain at you when mid comes and ganks other lanes... it's sad. Agree or disagree? Uh...if you're not warding as a mid, you're doing something wrong. I buy two wards almost every single back and toss one at the enemy banana bush (one leading into their blue buff), and at the enemy wraiths. Not only does it protect your ass from any ganks coming, it gives so much map vision for your team. People should complain at you if you aren't warding. tl;dr ward goddammit agree,mid is the easiest lane for farming by far.If you aren't buying at least one ward on every back you are doing something wrong.Warding the entrance to your jungle is beyond helpful to everyone.
Which takes priority, wraiths or blue side? Wraiths are the most common invade target but blue side often lets you see the enemy jungle leave theirs.
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On December 22 2012 01:51 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 01:46 TheKefka wrote:On December 22 2012 01:25 jcarlsoniv wrote:On December 22 2012 01:07 Yttrasil wrote:
Funny fact of the day mid is sooo easy and almost impossible to die at, if you've played top lane with a character that is quite easy to gank for a long time. Since when you go mid you barely feel the need to ward since you won't get into positions where you will be surceptible to ganks. However, people will complain at you when mid comes and ganks other lanes... it's sad. Agree or disagree? Uh...if you're not warding as a mid, you're doing something wrong. I buy two wards almost every single back and toss one at the enemy banana bush (one leading into their blue buff), and at the enemy wraiths. Not only does it protect your ass from any ganks coming, it gives so much map vision for your team. People should complain at you if you aren't warding. tl;dr ward goddammit agree,mid is the easiest lane for farming by far.If you aren't buying at least one ward on every back you are doing something wrong.Warding the entrance to your jungle is beyond helpful to everyone. Which takes priority, wraiths or blue side? Wraiths are the most common invade target but blue side often lets you see the enemy jungle leave theirs.
My advcie is buy 2 wards and ward both sides.
If you are against a heavy roamer like kat,diana,eve or something pop a ward in the mid lane so you always see where they go.
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I ward wraiths when possible but sometimes dangerous to do so. Also, warding wraiths doesn't give vision to the river, which means your lane opponent can still roam, and also when you're blue side and top comes down to gank you. Generally mid is a lane you want to keep pushed as much as possible, and when you only have 1 ward you want to hug that side of the lane to escape ganks.
Usually the jungler is nice enough to ward one of the sides for you, but don't rely on it.
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On December 22 2012 01:51 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 01:46 TheKefka wrote:On December 22 2012 01:25 jcarlsoniv wrote:On December 22 2012 01:07 Yttrasil wrote:
Funny fact of the day mid is sooo easy and almost impossible to die at, if you've played top lane with a character that is quite easy to gank for a long time. Since when you go mid you barely feel the need to ward since you won't get into positions where you will be surceptible to ganks. However, people will complain at you when mid comes and ganks other lanes... it's sad. Agree or disagree? Uh...if you're not warding as a mid, you're doing something wrong. I buy two wards almost every single back and toss one at the enemy banana bush (one leading into their blue buff), and at the enemy wraiths. Not only does it protect your ass from any ganks coming, it gives so much map vision for your team. People should complain at you if you aren't warding. tl;dr ward goddammit agree,mid is the easiest lane for farming by far.If you aren't buying at least one ward on every back you are doing something wrong.Warding the entrance to your jungle is beyond helpful to everyone. Which takes priority, wraiths or blue side? Wraiths are the most common invade target but blue side often lets you see the enemy jungle leave theirs.
Entirely depends on the situation.
Let's suppose I only have enough for one ward (blue side):
Am I backing around 6 minutes?
I know that the enemy blue will be up in about a minute (assuming a normal blue start from the enemy). This means that not only will the jungler be bottom half jungle around then, but their mid will also be there for the blue transfer. I ward the banana bush on the bottom of the river to see if their mid and jungler are going to wrap around either for me or my bot lane.
Is the enemy jungler spending a lot of time in the top jungle (ganking top and mid a lot)?
Ward wraiths. This will also allow you to see any mid movement through his own jungle (either to wraiths or top).
Is the enemy mid very gank heavy and roams frequently?
Ward whichever side you think is most vulnerable. If I don't trust my bot lane to live without wards, I throw one in the banana bush. Likewise for top/wraiths.
But it's too scary to go that far! The enemy will kill me for sure.
Ward as deep as you dare go. Any vision is good vision. Try and catch as many paths as possible with your ward. Mid lane side bushes are even good for it, although not quite as good as alternatives.
It really is situational, and requires you to be thinking ahead and have a good sense of how the game flow is going. Ideally, wait until you have enough for the two wards and then you don't even have to decide.
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With the new jungle entrance, it is often smarter to just ward on the middle of that ramp instead of at wraiths, depending on what your goals are. If you intend to do something to their wraiths, a wraith ward might be better. But that ward on the middle of the ramp covers both the jungle entrance, and the river, too.
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EPT
