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On December 22 2012 01:35 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 00:32 Requizen wrote:On December 22 2012 00:27 AsmodeusXI wrote:On December 22 2012 00:19 Requizen wrote:
Alright, on Vi, I need a bit of input. What are my matchups that I can fight into? She doesn't seem nearly as safe to just farm with like Riven (who can dash in and out) or Jayce (Ranged mode). I went against Olaf and Garen, and I felt each time I went in to farm, they dumped on me. If I tried to duel to force them out, they out damaged me and were able to get more health back through regen mechanics.
Were these just bad matchups? Who do you think you can/can't pick her into? Maybe it would be good to go with what someone suggested earlier and max W and E for more dueling power. Barring anything else, maybe there's a few matchups where you just have to use E to farm? Entirely possible. I maxed Q vs Garen (though I might need the mobility for their jungle Mao). I maxed W vs Olaf, but I felt like every time I went in to trade he just landed QE and walk away, and later he could just QE and initiate and I couldn't outdamage him. Though I really shouldn't have tried, Olaf isn't really someone you can duel. I assume you've tried to absorb, at least some of, the true damage with your shield?
Tried yeah, but somewhat unsuccessfully. Probably on my part, especially once he got a level advantage for his E. I'm sure getting better at managing her shield is important.
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On December 22 2012 00:57 jcarlsoniv wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 00:47 AsmodeusXI wrote:On December 22 2012 00:40 Requizen wrote:On December 22 2012 00:35 AsmodeusXI wrote:On December 22 2012 00:32 Requizen wrote:On December 22 2012 00:27 AsmodeusXI wrote:On December 22 2012 00:19 Requizen wrote:
Alright, on Vi, I need a bit of input. What are my matchups that I can fight into? She doesn't seem nearly as safe to just farm with like Riven (who can dash in and out) or Jayce (Ranged mode). I went against Olaf and Garen, and I felt each time I went in to farm, they dumped on me. If I tried to duel to force them out, they out damaged me and were able to get more health back through regen mechanics.
Were these just bad matchups? Who do you think you can/can't pick her into? Maybe it would be good to go with what someone suggested earlier and max W and E for more dueling power. Barring anything else, maybe there's a few matchups where you just have to use E to farm? Entirely possible. I maxed Q vs Garen (though I might need the mobility for their jungle Mao). I maxed W vs Olaf, but I felt like every time I went in to trade he just landed QE and walk away, and later he could just QE and initiate and I couldn't outdamage him. Though I really shouldn't have tried, Olaf isn't really someone you can duel. I do really like the Q max, honestly, just because having that near instant escape up again is really great. But on paper it does seem like E/W would be better for trades, and E definitely for "long-range" farm and harass. But also, Olaf. =/ Can't do much against that. Maybe build early DShield and hope your passive does work? I dunno if there's a solution there. I got frustrated with Q because it felt like damn near everything interrupted the channel/powerup. Are you just firing it off immediately for the quick gap opener/closer or are you charging it up? Especially against Garen, he would just save the silence for the exact second I started powering it up. Mao's root also interrupted it and put it on CD, which I thought was odd. I did a lot of charging in brush, but tbh the two games I played were against a terrible Mao top and another Vi, who started E. With Q I could constantly jump on her and my Q cds were shorter than her E's were. So it felt like godmode. But I think the general solution is bush charging if possible, though I understand that makes the escape harder, if not impossible. The Twisted Advance thing seems like a bug. On December 22 2012 00:46 Seuss wrote:On December 21 2012 23:35 Live2Win wrote:
THE SECRET'S OUT! Helios's interview: "I wanted to play Hec, because he's secretly OP right now, but my teammates wanted to keep it on the DL" (which is dumb now cuz now people know) They're lucky no one listens to me. Soniv did... eventually. Lol, no. Monte and I have discussions every once in a while about champs when they get released. We ruled Hecarim strong a looooooooooooooooooong time ago. Same with Nautilus on his release.
I also thought Skarner was strong when he came out (it's the reason I'm his thread-keeper). Guess who else wasn't initially popular?
My only glaring mistake when evaluating new champions as junglers remains Shyvana. I never really thought much of her, probably because her playstyle is so divorced from how I like to play the jungle.
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On December 22 2012 02:40 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 00:57 jcarlsoniv wrote:On December 22 2012 00:47 AsmodeusXI wrote:On December 22 2012 00:40 Requizen wrote:On December 22 2012 00:35 AsmodeusXI wrote:On December 22 2012 00:32 Requizen wrote:On December 22 2012 00:27 AsmodeusXI wrote:On December 22 2012 00:19 Requizen wrote:
Alright, on Vi, I need a bit of input. What are my matchups that I can fight into? She doesn't seem nearly as safe to just farm with like Riven (who can dash in and out) or Jayce (Ranged mode). I went against Olaf and Garen, and I felt each time I went in to farm, they dumped on me. If I tried to duel to force them out, they out damaged me and were able to get more health back through regen mechanics.
Were these just bad matchups? Who do you think you can/can't pick her into? Maybe it would be good to go with what someone suggested earlier and max W and E for more dueling power. Barring anything else, maybe there's a few matchups where you just have to use E to farm? Entirely possible. I maxed Q vs Garen (though I might need the mobility for their jungle Mao). I maxed W vs Olaf, but I felt like every time I went in to trade he just landed QE and walk away, and later he could just QE and initiate and I couldn't outdamage him. Though I really shouldn't have tried, Olaf isn't really someone you can duel. I do really like the Q max, honestly, just because having that near instant escape up again is really great. But on paper it does seem like E/W would be better for trades, and E definitely for "long-range" farm and harass. But also, Olaf. =/ Can't do much against that. Maybe build early DShield and hope your passive does work? I dunno if there's a solution there. I got frustrated with Q because it felt like damn near everything interrupted the channel/powerup. Are you just firing it off immediately for the quick gap opener/closer or are you charging it up? Especially against Garen, he would just save the silence for the exact second I started powering it up. Mao's root also interrupted it and put it on CD, which I thought was odd. I did a lot of charging in brush, but tbh the two games I played were against a terrible Mao top and another Vi, who started E. With Q I could constantly jump on her and my Q cds were shorter than her E's were. So it felt like godmode. But I think the general solution is bush charging if possible, though I understand that makes the escape harder, if not impossible. The Twisted Advance thing seems like a bug. On December 22 2012 00:46 Seuss wrote:On December 21 2012 23:35 Live2Win wrote:
THE SECRET'S OUT! Helios's interview: "I wanted to play Hec, because he's secretly OP right now, but my teammates wanted to keep it on the DL" (which is dumb now cuz now people know) They're lucky no one listens to me. Soniv did... eventually. Lol, no. Monte and I have discussions every once in a while about champs when they get released. We ruled Hecarim strong a looooooooooooooooooong time ago. Same with Nautilus on his release. I also thought Skarner was strong when he came out (it's the reason I'm his thread-keeper). Guess who else wasn't initially popular? My only glaring mistake when evaluating new champions as junglers remains Shyvana. I never really thought much of her, probably because her playstyle is so divorced from how I like to play the jungle.
Granted shyv kind of sucked on release. (in the meta at the time)
At least from what I remember. x_x
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United States15536 Posts
On December 22 2012 02:50 BlackPaladin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 02:34 Requizen wrote:On December 22 2012 01:35 Gahlo wrote:On December 22 2012 00:32 Requizen wrote:On December 22 2012 00:27 AsmodeusXI wrote:On December 22 2012 00:19 Requizen wrote:
Alright, on Vi, I need a bit of input. What are my matchups that I can fight into? She doesn't seem nearly as safe to just farm with like Riven (who can dash in and out) or Jayce (Ranged mode). I went against Olaf and Garen, and I felt each time I went in to farm, they dumped on me. If I tried to duel to force them out, they out damaged me and were able to get more health back through regen mechanics.
Were these just bad matchups? Who do you think you can/can't pick her into? Maybe it would be good to go with what someone suggested earlier and max W and E for more dueling power. Barring anything else, maybe there's a few matchups where you just have to use E to farm? Entirely possible. I maxed Q vs Garen (though I might need the mobility for their jungle Mao). I maxed W vs Olaf, but I felt like every time I went in to trade he just landed QE and walk away, and later he could just QE and initiate and I couldn't outdamage him. Though I really shouldn't have tried, Olaf isn't really someone you can duel. I assume you've tried to absorb, at least some of, the true damage with your shield? Tried yeah, but somewhat unsuccessfully. Probably on my part, especially once he got a level advantage for his E. I'm sure getting better at managing her shield is important. ...... True damage. It cannot be reduced. It's true damage.
Edit: LOLOLOL Shen'd.
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But when you have a HP shield on you, the true damage will affect the shield first. And her passive happens to be one.
Bleh, ninja edit. 
I'm currently running several setups with jungle Vi, will edit with results.
And Shyv didn't suck, she wasn't changed until M5 used her. Which kind of makes your point about the meta I guess.
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I misread it, huehue. For some reason I read it as Garen w max and was like wuttttt Req, this doesn't sound like you.
It's okay though, world ending today. You'll all not remember this tomorrow.
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United States15536 Posts
On December 22 2012 02:56 BlackPaladin wrote:
I misread it, huehue. For some reason I read it as Garen w max and was like wuttttt Req, this doesn't sound like you.
It's okay though, world ending today. You'll all not remember this tomorrow.
The Mayans foretold the day when Heimerdinger would once again be OP and the world would end.
Today is that day.
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I was doing 2xDBlade into Phage on Top Vi. I dunno, it felt ok, I wanted to be more bruiser-y, but I guess I could have gone for a Bruta in place of Phage. I felt like I needed the sticking power and health, though.
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On December 22 2012 02:50 BlackPaladin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 02:40 Seuss wrote:On December 22 2012 00:57 jcarlsoniv wrote:On December 22 2012 00:47 AsmodeusXI wrote:On December 22 2012 00:40 Requizen wrote:On December 22 2012 00:35 AsmodeusXI wrote:On December 22 2012 00:32 Requizen wrote:On December 22 2012 00:27 AsmodeusXI wrote:On December 22 2012 00:19 Requizen wrote:
Alright, on Vi, I need a bit of input. What are my matchups that I can fight into? She doesn't seem nearly as safe to just farm with like Riven (who can dash in and out) or Jayce (Ranged mode). I went against Olaf and Garen, and I felt each time I went in to farm, they dumped on me. If I tried to duel to force them out, they out damaged me and were able to get more health back through regen mechanics.
Were these just bad matchups? Who do you think you can/can't pick her into? Maybe it would be good to go with what someone suggested earlier and max W and E for more dueling power. Barring anything else, maybe there's a few matchups where you just have to use E to farm? Entirely possible. I maxed Q vs Garen (though I might need the mobility for their jungle Mao). I maxed W vs Olaf, but I felt like every time I went in to trade he just landed QE and walk away, and later he could just QE and initiate and I couldn't outdamage him. Though I really shouldn't have tried, Olaf isn't really someone you can duel. I do really like the Q max, honestly, just because having that near instant escape up again is really great. But on paper it does seem like E/W would be better for trades, and E definitely for "long-range" farm and harass. But also, Olaf. =/ Can't do much against that. Maybe build early DShield and hope your passive does work? I dunno if there's a solution there. I got frustrated with Q because it felt like damn near everything interrupted the channel/powerup. Are you just firing it off immediately for the quick gap opener/closer or are you charging it up? Especially against Garen, he would just save the silence for the exact second I started powering it up. Mao's root also interrupted it and put it on CD, which I thought was odd. I did a lot of charging in brush, but tbh the two games I played were against a terrible Mao top and another Vi, who started E. With Q I could constantly jump on her and my Q cds were shorter than her E's were. So it felt like godmode. But I think the general solution is bush charging if possible, though I understand that makes the escape harder, if not impossible. The Twisted Advance thing seems like a bug. On December 22 2012 00:46 Seuss wrote:On December 21 2012 23:35 Live2Win wrote:
THE SECRET'S OUT! Helios's interview: "I wanted to play Hec, because he's secretly OP right now, but my teammates wanted to keep it on the DL" (which is dumb now cuz now people know) They're lucky no one listens to me. Soniv did... eventually. Lol, no. Monte and I have discussions every once in a while about champs when they get released. We ruled Hecarim strong a looooooooooooooooooong time ago. Same with Nautilus on his release. I also thought Skarner was strong when he came out (it's the reason I'm his thread-keeper). Guess who else wasn't initially popular? My only glaring mistake when evaluating new champions as junglers remains Shyvana. I never really thought much of her, probably because her playstyle is so divorced from how I like to play the jungle. Granted shyv kind of sucked on release. (in the meta at the time) At least from what I remember. x_x
That doesn't particularly matter. She may have redefined the meta (along with Mundo and Udyr), but I had no issues picking out Nautilus (who also redefined the meta). It would be unbecoming of me to accept accolades for Nautilus if I did not also accept my error in overlooking Shyvana.
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On December 22 2012 03:04 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 02:50 BlackPaladin wrote:On December 22 2012 02:40 Seuss wrote:On December 22 2012 00:57 jcarlsoniv wrote:On December 22 2012 00:47 AsmodeusXI wrote:On December 22 2012 00:40 Requizen wrote:On December 22 2012 00:35 AsmodeusXI wrote:On December 22 2012 00:32 Requizen wrote:On December 22 2012 00:27 AsmodeusXI wrote:On December 22 2012 00:19 Requizen wrote:
Alright, on Vi, I need a bit of input. What are my matchups that I can fight into? She doesn't seem nearly as safe to just farm with like Riven (who can dash in and out) or Jayce (Ranged mode). I went against Olaf and Garen, and I felt each time I went in to farm, they dumped on me. If I tried to duel to force them out, they out damaged me and were able to get more health back through regen mechanics.
Were these just bad matchups? Who do you think you can/can't pick her into? Maybe it would be good to go with what someone suggested earlier and max W and E for more dueling power. Barring anything else, maybe there's a few matchups where you just have to use E to farm? Entirely possible. I maxed Q vs Garen (though I might need the mobility for their jungle Mao). I maxed W vs Olaf, but I felt like every time I went in to trade he just landed QE and walk away, and later he could just QE and initiate and I couldn't outdamage him. Though I really shouldn't have tried, Olaf isn't really someone you can duel. I do really like the Q max, honestly, just because having that near instant escape up again is really great. But on paper it does seem like E/W would be better for trades, and E definitely for "long-range" farm and harass. But also, Olaf. =/ Can't do much against that. Maybe build early DShield and hope your passive does work? I dunno if there's a solution there. I got frustrated with Q because it felt like damn near everything interrupted the channel/powerup. Are you just firing it off immediately for the quick gap opener/closer or are you charging it up? Especially against Garen, he would just save the silence for the exact second I started powering it up. Mao's root also interrupted it and put it on CD, which I thought was odd. I did a lot of charging in brush, but tbh the two games I played were against a terrible Mao top and another Vi, who started E. With Q I could constantly jump on her and my Q cds were shorter than her E's were. So it felt like godmode. But I think the general solution is bush charging if possible, though I understand that makes the escape harder, if not impossible. The Twisted Advance thing seems like a bug. On December 22 2012 00:46 Seuss wrote:On December 21 2012 23:35 Live2Win wrote:
THE SECRET'S OUT! Helios's interview: "I wanted to play Hec, because he's secretly OP right now, but my teammates wanted to keep it on the DL" (which is dumb now cuz now people know) They're lucky no one listens to me. Soniv did... eventually. Lol, no. Monte and I have discussions every once in a while about champs when they get released. We ruled Hecarim strong a looooooooooooooooooong time ago. Same with Nautilus on his release. I also thought Skarner was strong when he came out (it's the reason I'm his thread-keeper). Guess who else wasn't initially popular? My only glaring mistake when evaluating new champions as junglers remains Shyvana. I never really thought much of her, probably because her playstyle is so divorced from how I like to play the jungle. Granted shyv kind of sucked on release. (in the meta at the time) At least from what I remember. x_x That doesn't particularly matter. She may have redefined the meta (along with Mundo and Udyr), but I had no issues picking out Nautilus (who also redefined the meta). It would be unbecoming of me to accept accolades for Nautilus if I did not also accept my error in overlooking Shyvana.
So what do you think the jungle meta is now? I see less tanky cc junglers (aside from Amumu when he's not banned), and more fighter/bruiser junglers like Xin/Riven/Olaf/Jax. Is this the "new thing"?
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On December 22 2012 02:52 Alaric wrote:But when you have a HP shield on you, the true damage will affect the shield first. And her passive happens to be one. Bleh, ninja edit. I'm currently running several setups with jungle Vi, will edit with results. And Shyv didn't suck, she wasn't changed until M5 used her. Which kind of makes your point about the meta I guess.
Well, she wasn't strong until the jungle changes came out, but I think the jungle changes came pretty close to the Shyv patch so I'm not sure how relevant that is.
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On December 22 2012 03:06 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 03:04 Seuss wrote:On December 22 2012 02:50 BlackPaladin wrote:On December 22 2012 02:40 Seuss wrote:On December 22 2012 00:57 jcarlsoniv wrote:On December 22 2012 00:47 AsmodeusXI wrote:On December 22 2012 00:40 Requizen wrote:On December 22 2012 00:35 AsmodeusXI wrote:On December 22 2012 00:32 Requizen wrote:On December 22 2012 00:27 AsmodeusXI wrote:
[quote]
Maybe it would be good to go with what someone suggested earlier and max W and E for more dueling power. Barring anything else, maybe there's a few matchups where you just have to use E to farm?
Entirely possible. I maxed Q vs Garen (though I might need the mobility for their jungle Mao). I maxed W vs Olaf, but I felt like every time I went in to trade he just landed QE and walk away, and later he could just QE and initiate and I couldn't outdamage him. Though I really shouldn't have tried, Olaf isn't really someone you can duel. I do really like the Q max, honestly, just because having that near instant escape up again is really great. But on paper it does seem like E/W would be better for trades, and E definitely for "long-range" farm and harass. But also, Olaf. =/ Can't do much against that. Maybe build early DShield and hope your passive does work? I dunno if there's a solution there. I got frustrated with Q because it felt like damn near everything interrupted the channel/powerup. Are you just firing it off immediately for the quick gap opener/closer or are you charging it up? Especially against Garen, he would just save the silence for the exact second I started powering it up. Mao's root also interrupted it and put it on CD, which I thought was odd. I did a lot of charging in brush, but tbh the two games I played were against a terrible Mao top and another Vi, who started E. With Q I could constantly jump on her and my Q cds were shorter than her E's were. So it felt like godmode. But I think the general solution is bush charging if possible, though I understand that makes the escape harder, if not impossible. The Twisted Advance thing seems like a bug. On December 22 2012 00:46 Seuss wrote:On December 21 2012 23:35 Live2Win wrote:
THE SECRET'S OUT! Helios's interview: "I wanted to play Hec, because he's secretly OP right now, but my teammates wanted to keep it on the DL" (which is dumb now cuz now people know) They're lucky no one listens to me. Soniv did... eventually. Lol, no. Monte and I have discussions every once in a while about champs when they get released. We ruled Hecarim strong a looooooooooooooooooong time ago. Same with Nautilus on his release. I also thought Skarner was strong when he came out (it's the reason I'm his thread-keeper). Guess who else wasn't initially popular? My only glaring mistake when evaluating new champions as junglers remains Shyvana. I never really thought much of her, probably because her playstyle is so divorced from how I like to play the jungle. Granted shyv kind of sucked on release. (in the meta at the time) At least from what I remember. x_x That doesn't particularly matter. She may have redefined the meta (along with Mundo and Udyr), but I had no issues picking out Nautilus (who also redefined the meta). It would be unbecoming of me to accept accolades for Nautilus if I did not also accept my error in overlooking Shyvana. So what do you think the jungle meta is now? I see less tanky cc junglers (aside from Amumu when he's not banned), and more fighter/bruiser junglers like Xin/Riven/Olaf/Jax. Is this the "new thing"?
yea if your not maokai or amumu or nunu, you're a duelist these days. Mundo/Xin/lee sin/Nocturne/etc.
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Ran some tests in the jungle with Vi.
21-9-0
machete+5 pots
Wolves->Blue->Wraiths->Wolves->Red->Wraiths->Golems
All camps started with a charged Q once I skilled it.
AS/MS
WEQ, E max: 4:09, 580 HP no pots
WEQ, Q max: 4:09, 590 HP no pots
WQE, E max: 4:10, 500 HP no pots (I may have it a shield less on this one)
WQE, Q max: 4:11, 575 HP no pots
AD/MS
WEQ, E max : 4:09, 364 HP no pots
-> no further tests, too much HP loss
AD/AD
WEQ, E max: 4:09, 690 HP no pots
WEQ, Q max: 4:09, 630 HP no pots (I took a bit more damage at wraiths because of positioning, should be 20-30 HP higher)
WQE, E max: 4:06, 565 HP no pots
WQE, Q max: 4:10, 590 HP no pots
The wraiths camp is by far the most annoying because it's not too easy to place yourself so that your E will hit everything, while still punching the big one.
Trying AD/AD with E first, for kicks:
EWQ, E max: 4:05, 600 HP no pots
EWQ, Q max: 4:09, 610 HP no pots
I drop lower on the blue but kill the wolves faster. I could have had more HP on the E max clear but I missed a shield on the golems.
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On December 22 2012 03:06 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 03:04 Seuss wrote:On December 22 2012 02:50 BlackPaladin wrote:On December 22 2012 02:40 Seuss wrote:On December 22 2012 00:57 jcarlsoniv wrote:On December 22 2012 00:47 AsmodeusXI wrote:On December 22 2012 00:40 Requizen wrote:On December 22 2012 00:35 AsmodeusXI wrote:On December 22 2012 00:32 Requizen wrote:On December 22 2012 00:27 AsmodeusXI wrote:
[quote]
Maybe it would be good to go with what someone suggested earlier and max W and E for more dueling power. Barring anything else, maybe there's a few matchups where you just have to use E to farm?
Entirely possible. I maxed Q vs Garen (though I might need the mobility for their jungle Mao). I maxed W vs Olaf, but I felt like every time I went in to trade he just landed QE and walk away, and later he could just QE and initiate and I couldn't outdamage him. Though I really shouldn't have tried, Olaf isn't really someone you can duel. I do really like the Q max, honestly, just because having that near instant escape up again is really great. But on paper it does seem like E/W would be better for trades, and E definitely for "long-range" farm and harass. But also, Olaf. =/ Can't do much against that. Maybe build early DShield and hope your passive does work? I dunno if there's a solution there. I got frustrated with Q because it felt like damn near everything interrupted the channel/powerup. Are you just firing it off immediately for the quick gap opener/closer or are you charging it up? Especially against Garen, he would just save the silence for the exact second I started powering it up. Mao's root also interrupted it and put it on CD, which I thought was odd. I did a lot of charging in brush, but tbh the two games I played were against a terrible Mao top and another Vi, who started E. With Q I could constantly jump on her and my Q cds were shorter than her E's were. So it felt like godmode. But I think the general solution is bush charging if possible, though I understand that makes the escape harder, if not impossible. The Twisted Advance thing seems like a bug. On December 22 2012 00:46 Seuss wrote:On December 21 2012 23:35 Live2Win wrote:
THE SECRET'S OUT! Helios's interview: "I wanted to play Hec, because he's secretly OP right now, but my teammates wanted to keep it on the DL" (which is dumb now cuz now people know) They're lucky no one listens to me. Soniv did... eventually. Lol, no. Monte and I have discussions every once in a while about champs when they get released. We ruled Hecarim strong a looooooooooooooooooong time ago. Same with Nautilus on his release. I also thought Skarner was strong when he came out (it's the reason I'm his thread-keeper). Guess who else wasn't initially popular? My only glaring mistake when evaluating new champions as junglers remains Shyvana. I never really thought much of her, probably because her playstyle is so divorced from how I like to play the jungle. Granted shyv kind of sucked on release. (in the meta at the time) At least from what I remember. x_x That doesn't particularly matter. She may have redefined the meta (along with Mundo and Udyr), but I had no issues picking out Nautilus (who also redefined the meta). It would be unbecoming of me to accept accolades for Nautilus if I did not also accept my error in overlooking Shyvana. So what do you think the jungle meta is now? I see less tanky cc junglers (aside from Amumu when he's not banned), and more fighter/bruiser junglers like Xin/Riven/Olaf/Jax. Is this the "new thing"?
It's the result of the penetration and itemization changes. Bruisers/assassins are much, much stronger than before. Whereas before the jungle almost always needed to be a tank/cc champion, that's no longer absolutely necessary.
You can expect to see more bruisers and assassins in general, not just in the jungle. I don't currently expect us to run into another full bruiser meta, but they will definitely be popular in and out of the jungle for some time to come unless Riot gives them the Diana treatment.
On December 22 2012 03:08 EquilasH wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 02:52 Alaric wrote:But when you have a HP shield on you, the true damage will affect the shield first. And her passive happens to be one. Bleh, ninja edit. I'm currently running several setups with jungle Vi, will edit with results. And Shyv didn't suck, she wasn't changed until M5 used her. Which kind of makes your point about the meta I guess. Well, she wasn't strong until the jungle changes came out, but I think the jungle changes came pretty close to the Shyv patch so I'm not sure how relevant that is.
The Shyvana patch was v128, and the jungle remake was v130, so you have your timeline correct. She was definitely terrible in the original jungle, which likely colored a lot of opinions even after the remake.
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I think EUW game servers might have shit themselves. Can anyone else confirm?
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Just finished a game and no problems. Starting another now so I'll tell you.
EDIT: NVM A DODGER :< and another!
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United States37500 Posts
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On the shyvanna thing, I think it was about a month or so after her release that the jungle was remade. And I have to say, shyv was beastly in the old old jungle.
She could clear all her small camps and then have time and HP to gank two lanes before her mini camps respawned. And after 6 with oracles + wriggles her counter jungling was extremely effective because of how long it took mini camps to respawn. It was possible to starve the enemy jungle and still exert pressure on lanes.
But that was at lower elo at the time, don't know what people were doing at high elo.
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On December 22 2012 03:04 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 02:50 BlackPaladin wrote:On December 22 2012 02:40 Seuss wrote:On December 22 2012 00:57 jcarlsoniv wrote:On December 22 2012 00:47 AsmodeusXI wrote:On December 22 2012 00:40 Requizen wrote:On December 22 2012 00:35 AsmodeusXI wrote:On December 22 2012 00:32 Requizen wrote:On December 22 2012 00:27 AsmodeusXI wrote:On December 22 2012 00:19 Requizen wrote:
Alright, on Vi, I need a bit of input. What are my matchups that I can fight into? She doesn't seem nearly as safe to just farm with like Riven (who can dash in and out) or Jayce (Ranged mode). I went against Olaf and Garen, and I felt each time I went in to farm, they dumped on me. If I tried to duel to force them out, they out damaged me and were able to get more health back through regen mechanics.
Were these just bad matchups? Who do you think you can/can't pick her into? Maybe it would be good to go with what someone suggested earlier and max W and E for more dueling power. Barring anything else, maybe there's a few matchups where you just have to use E to farm? Entirely possible. I maxed Q vs Garen (though I might need the mobility for their jungle Mao). I maxed W vs Olaf, but I felt like every time I went in to trade he just landed QE and walk away, and later he could just QE and initiate and I couldn't outdamage him. Though I really shouldn't have tried, Olaf isn't really someone you can duel. I do really like the Q max, honestly, just because having that near instant escape up again is really great. But on paper it does seem like E/W would be better for trades, and E definitely for "long-range" farm and harass. But also, Olaf. =/ Can't do much against that. Maybe build early DShield and hope your passive does work? I dunno if there's a solution there. I got frustrated with Q because it felt like damn near everything interrupted the channel/powerup. Are you just firing it off immediately for the quick gap opener/closer or are you charging it up? Especially against Garen, he would just save the silence for the exact second I started powering it up. Mao's root also interrupted it and put it on CD, which I thought was odd. I did a lot of charging in brush, but tbh the two games I played were against a terrible Mao top and another Vi, who started E. With Q I could constantly jump on her and my Q cds were shorter than her E's were. So it felt like godmode. But I think the general solution is bush charging if possible, though I understand that makes the escape harder, if not impossible. The Twisted Advance thing seems like a bug. On December 22 2012 00:46 Seuss wrote:On December 21 2012 23:35 Live2Win wrote:
THE SECRET'S OUT! Helios's interview: "I wanted to play Hec, because he's secretly OP right now, but my teammates wanted to keep it on the DL" (which is dumb now cuz now people know) They're lucky no one listens to me. Soniv did... eventually. Lol, no. Monte and I have discussions every once in a while about champs when they get released. We ruled Hecarim strong a looooooooooooooooooong time ago. Same with Nautilus on his release. I also thought Skarner was strong when he came out (it's the reason I'm his thread-keeper). Guess who else wasn't initially popular? My only glaring mistake when evaluating new champions as junglers remains Shyvana. I never really thought much of her, probably because her playstyle is so divorced from how I like to play the jungle. Granted shyv kind of sucked on release. (in the meta at the time) At least from what I remember. x_x That doesn't particularly matter. She may have redefined the meta (along with Mundo and Udyr), but I had no issues picking out Nautilus (who also redefined the meta). It would be unbecoming of me to accept accolades for Nautilus if I did not also accept my error in overlooking Shyvana.
It's not exactly the same comparison. A situational farm jungler who relies on fast clears vs a cc bot is a big difference. CC will always be valued high in any meta because of how strong it is in fights. Literally the only cc shyv has is the slight knock back from her ult, and that's very situational. Just the nature of their kits makes shyv a lot more situational, and arguably weaker overall as a "i want this champ on my team" type of deal. Obviously it's team comp dependent, but I'm just talking in a general sense here.
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