EPTUp until now, the difference between Annie Flash-Tibbers and slower, less reliable initiation skills hasn't been all that relevant, because those hair-splitting travel times/animation times haven't made a critical difference in many situations at the top level because the skill wasn't there to differentiate them anyway. But we're getting to the point where that difference matters now--where 1500 Elo Korean solo queue players can flash Malphite ults, and Asian pro ADs can do it reliably, the comparative reliability of Annie's 0-animation spells becomes increasingly valuable.
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
Up until now, the difference between Annie Flash-Tibbers and slower, less reliable initiation skills hasn't been all that relevant, because those hair-splitting travel times/animation times haven't made a critical difference in many situations at the top level because the skill wasn't there to differentiate them anyway. But we're getting to the point where that difference matters now--where 1500 Elo Korean solo queue players can flash Malphite ults, and Asian pro ADs can do it reliably, the comparative reliability of Annie's 0-animation spells becomes increasingly valuable. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
Unless you are running some sort of killcomp that needs to dominate botlane, cus Ali just counters that. | ||
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VayneAuthority
United States8983 Posts
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obesechicken13
United States10467 Posts
On December 21 2012 14:50 TheYango wrote: Annie Flash-Tibbers is bar-none the fastest, most reliable initiation in the game, as it beats anything that has a travel time, and anything that has a cast animation, because it has neither. Up until now, the difference between Annie Flash-Tibbers and slower, less reliable initiation skills hasn't been all that relevant, because those hair-splitting travel times/animation times haven't made a critical difference in many situations at the top level because the skill wasn't there to differentiate them anyway. But we're getting to the point where that difference matters now--where 1500 Elo Korean solo queue players can flash Malphite ults, and Asian pro ADs can do it reliably, the comparative reliability of Annie's 0-animation spells becomes increasingly valuable. I'm pretty sure dodging malphite ults comes down to having your key over the flash key and having low ping. That or I suck at it. I don't think Annie is terrible. I just hate her laning. Also hate it when Nocturne jumps her and no one is there to save her. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On December 21 2012 14:51 VayneAuthority wrote: If you want to play a close range glass cannon mage with AOE, fiddlesticks is simply superior to annie. Her lack of sustain in lane with no real other strength over other mids...doesnt give much of a reason to play her I would argue that playing her as a glass cannon is the wrong way to play her, which was more or less proliferated by the rework that buffed her AP scaling, coupled with Deathcap being insanely over-tuned at the time. She played as a glass cannon because every AP played that way at the time, but in the current environment I think that's the wrong way to play her, particularly as itemization right now allows more smooth mixed defensive/offensive itemization. | ||
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arb
Noobville17921 Posts
On December 21 2012 14:51 cLutZ wrote: Ali cant S3 jungle. Ali support has never been banworthy. Thus Ali is not banworthy. Unless you are running some sort of killcomp that needs to dominate botlane, cus Ali just counters that. In the right hands an Alistar support is honestly one of the most brutal supports to have to face botlane imo | ||
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Vanka
China1336 Posts
On December 21 2012 14:56 TheYango wrote: I would argue that playing her as a glass cannon is the wrong way to play her, which was more or less proliferated by the rework that buffed her AP scaling, coupled with Deathcap being insanely over-tuned at the time. She played as a glass cannon because every AP played that way at the time, but in the current environment I think that's the wrong way to play her, particularly as itemization right now allows more smooth mixed defensive/offensive itemization. I agree with this, considering level 5 E gives you 60 mr and armor, so health and resists add on that quite well | ||
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overt
United States9006 Posts
On December 21 2012 14:56 obesechicken13 wrote: I'm pretty sure dodging malphite ults comes down to having your key over the flash key and having low ping. That or I suck at it. I don't think Annie is terrible. I just hate her laning. Also hate it when Nocturne jumps her and no one is there to save her. Honestly imo her laning is only bad pre-6. She has a small handful of favorable lanes even pre-6 and can go even with a ton of people post-6 as her burst is still really high and you're almost always gonna get a stun off in a life or death trade. Hardest part of playing her is dodging all the 700+ range skill shots that everyone else in mid lane has. Post-6 most of the enemies who harassed you a lot can typically be killed especially if you harassed at all with Q pre-6 (which really isn't as difficult as some people make it sound). Her biggest weakness isn't even her laning it's her over-reliance on Flash/ult. Basically after she does her combo she has like a three minute period where she's significantly less of a threat and instead of a strong initiator she serves more of a counter-initiation role. But her roam is strong, her laning is average (I think you can get farmed against nearly everyone), and she doesn't need to build any mana items at all. edit: btw, on the subject of a more defensive oriented Annie all of her spells are within Abyssals 700 range. And Zhonya's has been almost mandatory as second or third big item for a long time on her. So you could probably still do the old Abyssal rush that AP mids all used to do three or four months ago. And early Negatron could potentially help her against bad match ups. | ||
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Zdrastochye
Ivory Coast6262 Posts
On December 21 2012 14:40 TheYango wrote: You guys all underrate Annie. She's actually quite good, especially given a few significant indirect buffs from S3 (such as Mastermind being moved down to tier 2 Utility). I will say that one point that everyone neglects as a balance point is that all 4 of Annie's spells cast instantaneously, as opposed to most other APs that have several spells with noticeable pre-cast animations. This actually matters a LOT toward balancing the strength of her spells, but very few people pay attention to this fact. Her Q has a tiny windup time. Small but noticeable. Her W and R are instant, sure, but W is pretty short, and her ult has always been what's defined Annie as a good champ. | ||
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foxmeep
Australia2333 Posts
On December 21 2012 14:50 TheYango wrote: Annie Flash-Tibbers is bar-none the fastest, most reliable initiation in the game, as it beats anything that has a travel time, and anything that has a cast animation, because it has neither. Up until now, the difference between Annie Flash-Tibbers and slower, less reliable initiation skills hasn't been all that relevant, because those hair-splitting travel times/animation times haven't made a critical difference in many situations at the top level because the skill wasn't there to differentiate them anyway. But we're getting to the point where that difference matters now--where 1500 Elo Korean solo queue players can flash Malphite ults, and Asian pro ADs can do it reliably, the comparative reliability of Annie's 0-animation spells becomes increasingly valuable. No one can realistically dodge an Amumu flash-ultimate. I would take that any day over Annie. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On December 21 2012 15:18 foxmeep wrote: No one can realistically dodge an Amumu flash-ultimate. I would take that any day over Annie. It has shorter effective range, and a less practical shape for initiating with unless you use a movement-based item active or Bandage Toss, which are very much non-instant. | ||
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VayneAuthority
United States8983 Posts
On December 21 2012 14:56 TheYango wrote: I would argue that playing her as a glass cannon is the wrong way to play her, which was more or less proliferated by the rework that buffed her AP scaling, coupled with Deathcap being insanely over-tuned at the time. She played as a glass cannon because every AP played that way at the time, but in the current environment I think that's the wrong way to play her, particularly as itemization right now allows more smooth mixed defensive/offensive itemization. Would you suggest playing her top then? Or having a burster go top compensate? Team comps without burst are usually lackluster since they are the quickest way to make plays from mid by roaming. It also makes you lack play making ability as the game goes on. In addition, I feel like anivia and cho gath outserve annie as tanky disruptors with good laning phases, but I am open to your thoughts of course. | ||
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Kaneh
Canada737 Posts
On December 21 2012 14:56 TheYango wrote: I would argue that playing her as a glass cannon is the wrong way to play her, which was more or less proliferated by the rework that buffed her AP scaling, coupled with Deathcap being insanely over-tuned at the time. She played as a glass cannon because every AP played that way at the time, but in the current environment I think that's the wrong way to play her, particularly as itemization right now allows more smooth mixed defensive/offensive itemization. this, a thousand times this. Rylai + spellvamp + what is essentially Leona's shield makes her really tanky. and molten shield is actually really significant damage. The up front burst isn't nearly as good as staying alive and keeping tibbers on whatever target. Plus rylai works on tibbers aura and molten shield. yeah, deathcap is great, but unless you're pretty far ahead and consistently able to one shot people, its much better to just be alive chucking disintegrates every ~3 seconds and having tibbers burn/slow people. If you're alive to start a 2nd rotation of spells, it works out that your incinerate cone will be up in ~5 seconds, along with your stun counter. so if you're tanky enough to survive those 5 seconds you essentially have 2 massive aoe stuns. Plus constant slows. | ||
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Kaneh
Canada737 Posts
On December 21 2012 15:21 VayneAuthority wrote: Would you suggest playing her top then? Or having a burster go top compensate? Team comps without burst are usually lackluster since they are the quickest way to make plays from mid by roaming. It also makes you lack play making ability as the game goes on. In addition, I feel like anivia and cho gath outserve annie as tanky disruptors with good laning phases, but I am open to your thoughts of course. IMO she's an initiator/peel, not a tanky disruptor. the same role/way galio is played. it requires a different team comp than all the assasin/carry mids we see, but it doesn't seem all that unfeasible. | ||
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NEOtheONE
United States2233 Posts
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Zdrastochye
Ivory Coast6262 Posts
On December 21 2012 15:21 VayneAuthority wrote: Would you suggest playing her top then? Or having a burster go top compensate? Team comps without burst are usually lackluster since they are the quickest way to make plays from mid by roaming. It also makes you lack play making ability as the game goes on. In addition, I feel like anivia and cho gath outserve annie as tanky disruptors with good laning phases, but I am open to your thoughts of course. As good as Cho is top, he has a lot of unfavorable matchups mid, until he gets a lot of MR under his belt. Especially when one of them (Ori) also happens to be very FOTM right now. That said I'd take a Cho over an Annie in a team fight any day of the week, but that's just a personal preference. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
On December 21 2012 15:14 Zdrastochye wrote: Her Q has a tiny windup time. Small but noticeable. Her W and R are instant, sure, but W is pretty short, and her ult has always been what's defined Annie as a good champ. That W is terrific because since you never see any Annie you more or less forget its range (esp. since it's longer than the particles show), and then you run barely into it and suddenly you're stunned and left wondering for 0.2 second until you see the flame and realize your mistake (as the Q and auto land in you face). | ||
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zer0das
United States8519 Posts
On December 21 2012 14:40 TheYango wrote: You guys all underrate Annie. She's actually quite good, especially given a few significant indirect buffs from S3 (such as Mastermind being moved down to tier 2 Utility). I tried her again, and I agree the season 3 changes help. Went against a Midalee, with flask and pots I just stayed in lane until I felt like leaving. Liandry's is really good on her, because you can blanket their entire team with Tibbers. I also feel like Deathfire Grasp would be quite strong on her for individual burst. Probably works best with an ADC with long range though (Tris covered up a lot of my range problems). Also the free resists from her shield are a hell of a lot more useful than they used to be. On the downside, roaming is a lot worse because of sightstone and the oracles change. Also, when did they make her model so tiny? This helps a ton. I played her about a month ago and it was still the old fat model. | ||
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Kaneh
Canada737 Posts
On December 21 2012 15:41 Alaric wrote: That W is terrific because since you never see any Annie you more or less forget its range (esp. since it's longer than the particles show), and then you run barely into it and suddenly you're stunned and left wondering for 0.2 second until you see the flame and realize your mistake (as the Q and auto land in you face). heh everyone looks at the animation and forgets that q and w are the same range. | ||
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seRapH
United States9756 Posts
On December 21 2012 15:00 arb wrote: In the right hands an Alistar support is honestly one of the most brutal supports to have to face botlane imo In the wrong hands its hilariously easy to stomp. Alistar is not one of those champions you just pick up and do well with. | ||
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