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On November 30 2012 03:24 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 02:32 PrinceXizor wrote:
Re doublelift is dumb. He's still on a team with hotshot.
question answered. With that logic, you'd be saying Chauster is dumb. This has been hotly debated in SC:BW and SC:2 forums, just because someone's rating is higher than someone else, doesn't mean their points all of a sudden have validity. A good point backed by reason, coming from any elo rating is still a good point backed by reason.
Sure but sometimes people who experience the game one way cannot find a common ground with those who have a different experience. If you play vs ADs who don't hit you back in lane, you can't completely fathom what another person means by poke supports are good vs ADs that trade often (this is purely a hypothetical example). Whereas if you play vs ADs who hit back, sustain gains value an kill lanes lose value. Hence maybe philo stone is better for that type of games, and HOGs are better for more passive lanes.
What kind of games have ADs that don't hit back or hit back less? Lower elo ones. If you agree then you should agree that people who play at different elo tiers play the game differently, and not all builds/items/champs are optimized for all elos. If you think this is discriminatory you're a huge pussy.
Everyone criticizes and has the right to criticize pro athletes, but if you're gonna be like ESPN and circle jerk around sheep opinions masquerading as "insight" to someone's play, when you yourself have no idea how the game works I think I will say something.
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That's implying that you don't understand the idea that AD's hit back at lower elo's.
You're talking about dumbass 500elo trash tier redditors.
I'm talking about reasonable TL posters, who obviously understand high level tactics/gameplay, despite not playing at that level.
On average, higher elo usually implies better understanding of the game, but that doesn't mean all of a sudden someone with lower elo's points are completely moot.
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On November 30 2012 03:30 xes wrote:
Irelia vs Jax, how do you do it?
I was 2-0-2 from lvl1 + roaming mid, and went all in lvl 6 vs his lvl 5 (I also had a phage red buff dorans vs his vamp dorans).
So now I'm 3-0, pick up a sheen and go back to lane and immediately try to all in him again. But he's 6 now and outduels me ?_? I saved my W until after his E and then E'd him after he wasted his E without stunning me. But his ramping ult damage and W resets do way more than my ult+sheen procs. Should I have just backed out after his E went on CD, waited for his passive to die + ult active to die, and then go back in? I felt like I should be massively ahead enough to have just 1v1'd him regardless.
Since I was massively ahead and still lost an all in duel, how do you play the lane if its even? Seems like Jax can just shit on you all day. Build Ionic Spark and just push push push and never fight him?
Basically. Jax has the stronger 1v1 than you, and his power spike is close enough to yours that you can't really abuse him in the early game and then you're kinda even and then you're gonna fall behind and never come back(if equal farm and levels, ofc)
That said, some pros say that the match up is actually kinda even, but apparently you have to bait his E and then re-engage. I'm usually the jax in this match up, so I don't really know what to do as Irelia.
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On November 30 2012 03:24 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 02:32 PrinceXizor wrote:
Re doublelift is dumb. He's still on a team with hotshot.
question answered. With that logic, you'd be saying Chauster is dumb. This has been hotly debated in SC:BW and SC:2 forums, just because someone's rating is higher than someone else, doesn't mean their points all of a sudden have validity. A good point backed by reason, coming from any elo rating is still a good point backed by reason.
Yep. lol i feel like being on a team w/ hotshot is dumb regardless of who you are.
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Germany24009 Posts
On November 30 2012 02:13 OutlaW- wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 02:08 AsnSensation wrote:On November 30 2012 01:46 Sandster wrote:On November 30 2012 01:40 Dandel Ion wrote:On November 30 2012 01:29 Sandster wrote:
I hate PD first on Vayne. But maybe that's why I'm so bad on her. Try PD first with a Nunu support rushing Zekes. Never look back. Also Trist >>>>>>>> Vayne lategame, stick your damage calculations wherever. Range > Everything else in lategame. if vayne does 20 more damage to a bruiser doesn't matter at all, because she's gonna die twice as fast. Ok, this is something that I've never understood. Why do you need PD if you already have a Nunu? You already attack fast, so getting a BF sword first would make you do SO much more damage while not relying on consistently auto attacking (and being more exposed). It's like the Vayne in one of my ranked games that went PD->Zeal and did nothing mid game since he couldn't sit there and auto attack. yeah I agree, pd first is good when you dont get the nunu but Id always go IE/BT first with nunu, since we just clarified a few pages ago that W is not thaaaat much dmg, especially early mid game. with non nunu supports pd first is decent but even with 2 dorans there is a small period where you can't last hit under turret like usual ( 1 hit after 2 towershots on melee or 1 hit after range) because you simply lack the raw ad, this is where you have to adapt your cs'ing slightly or you'll miss alot in that small window  are you sure about this? aren't full ad masteries + 19/11 + 2 dorans enough?
I'm pretty sure when I tested pd first I missed a ton of cs because I expected to cs smoothly like usual and like a week ago Chaox tried pd first too and missed alot of cs under turret or in general because he expected to "have more ad" ^^
gotta test it again sometime because I pretty much stick with bt first nowadays.
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On November 30 2012 03:37 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 03:24 wei2coolman wrote:On November 30 2012 02:32 PrinceXizor wrote:
Re doublelift is dumb. He's still on a team with hotshot.
question answered. With that logic, you'd be saying Chauster is dumb. This has been hotly debated in SC:BW and SC:2 forums, just because someone's rating is higher than someone else, doesn't mean their points all of a sudden have validity. A good point backed by reason, coming from any elo rating is still a good point backed by reason. Yep. lol i feel like being on a team w/ hotshot is dumb regardless of who you are.
They are in CLG for the material aspect of it, did you see them showers, them beds and them houses they gets ? It's all thanks to clgmoneygg. Would you leave to play with aphromo in a team that change name every 2 weeks cauz sponsors doesn't want to invest in an unknown brand ?
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On November 30 2012 03:37 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 03:24 wei2coolman wrote:On November 30 2012 02:32 PrinceXizor wrote:
Re doublelift is dumb. He's still on a team with hotshot.
question answered. With that logic, you'd be saying Chauster is dumb. This has been hotly debated in SC:BW and SC:2 forums, just because someone's rating is higher than someone else, doesn't mean their points all of a sudden have validity. A good point backed by reason, coming from any elo rating is still a good point backed by reason. Yep. lol i feel like being on a team w/ hotshot is dumb regardless of who you are.
I dunno, Chauster has to provide enough brains throughout CLG to balance out HSGG, and Doublelift; all while remaining #2 in NA scene for S2. Pretty impressive imo. Say what you want about CLG, but they're still top tier in NA scene (whatever the fuck that means; cuz NA scene is pretty bad right now)
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On November 30 2012 03:35 wei2coolman wrote:
That's implying that you don't understand the idea that AD's hit back at lower elo's.
You're talking about dumbass 500elo trash tier redditors.
I'm talking about reasonable TL posters, who obviously understand high level tactics/gameplay, despite not playing at that level.
On average, higher elo usually implies better understanding of the game, but that doesn't mean all of a sudden someone with lower elo's points are completely moot.
I've played at every elo tier for extensive periods from 1100 on up to my high, if you think ADs lane the same way, and all harass as often you're delusional about the game. Thinking the average TL poster understands high level tactics/gameplay is also delusional.
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wow i skipped pages and pages to get to something interesting and it's all people trying to find the nastiest thing they can say about doublelift (which is embarassing. A few high elo players calling him retarded and a swarm of questionably skilled players doing the same thing is kind of like xisor calling loci shitty, and a bunch of people with level seven accounts agreeing). Then bly posts and these people i don't give a fuck about form an instant lynch mob. To be honest, nobody cares whether you like him or not, nobody cares what his motivations are, and of course i'm not a mod but i'd like if it you please wouldn't piss on the forum, on it's members, on it's topics of discussion because it's what the club does. You guys act like a bunch of teenage girls. EDTI: takes forever to post on phone and lats page is actually reasonable, but there are many many pages of garbage behind it.
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The most interesting about all that is that zulu_nation8 is ready to start the same rant other and other again whatever the discussion is and whoever we are criticising (well, when it's a CLG player, he doesn't care when people say dyrus is dumb).
On November 30 2012 03:31 BlueSpace wrote:
In germany we sometimes say there are 80 million trainers for our national soccer team...
Critizing pros and pretending you would do better is one of the great joys of watching sports in my opinion. I would have totally scored that goal. I would never check a brush without thinking!
Well you don't have to be intelligent to play soccer... do you know Ribery ? I think people can respect certain aspect of a player and criticise other aspects. Note that I don't think that doublelift is dumb, he is just a cocky like all CLG.
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On November 30 2012 03:40 zulu_nation8 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 03:35 wei2coolman wrote:
That's implying that you don't understand the idea that AD's hit back at lower elo's.
You're talking about dumbass 500elo trash tier redditors.
I'm talking about reasonable TL posters, who obviously understand high level tactics/gameplay, despite not playing at that level.
On average, higher elo usually implies better understanding of the game, but that doesn't mean all of a sudden someone with lower elo's points are completely moot. I've played at every elo tier for extensive periods from 1100 on up to my high, if you think ADs lane the same way, and all harass as often you're delusional about the game. Thinking the average TL poster understands high level tactics/gameplay is also delusional.
A good point made by anyone at any elo, is still a good point regardless.
A "good point" is objectively "good", no matter where it comes from.
Yes, it gives more credibility if you're high elo, but it is by no means the end all or be all reasoning.
I mean, seriously, have you seen Dan Dinh's build orders for his junglers? It's almost as if he gets a dart, and he has a target with different items on there, and he just tosses the dart blindly, and then just buys that item for the game.
On November 30 2012 03:42 UniversalSnip wrote:
wow i skipped pages and pages to get to something interesting and it's all people trying to find the nastiest thing they can say about doublelift (which is embarassing. A few high elo players calling him retarded and a swarm of questionably skilled players doing the same thing is kind of like xisor calling loci shitty, and a bunch of people with level seven accounts agreeing). Then bly posts and these people i don't give a fuck about form an instant lynch mob. To be honest, nobody cares whether you like him or not, nobody cares what his motivations are, and of course i'm not a mod but i'd like if it you please wouldn't piss on the forum, on it's members, on it's topics of discussion because it's what the club does. You guys act like a bunch of teenage girls.
Where was this message when everyone was making fun of Elementz a few days ago?
I think most of the people who are shittalking doublelift, are DL fans, they're just being facetious.
On November 30 2012 03:47 thenexusp wrote:
wtf are people even arguing about anymore.
didn't we say the whole 2xlift is dumb meme is based on some dumb things he did a year ago and wasn't really related to his current performance
you don't need to be a high elo player to be able to criticize a pro, just like how you don't need to be a filmmaker to criticize a movie
DL made some dumb facechecks, we point at him and say how dumb that was (it comes with the fame or being regarded as the best NA AD carry). We make our own dumb facechecks all the time, we realize they are dumb after the fact, DL probably realized his dumb facechecks were dumb, the world goes on.
I'm guessing you've never heard a CLG argument before? He has some pretty questionable theorycrafting ideas, and how he thinks the game should be played out...
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wtf are people even arguing about anymore.
didn't we say the whole 2xlift is dumb meme is based on some dumb things he did a year ago and wasn't really related to his current performance
you don't need to be a high elo player to be able to criticize a pro, just like how you don't need to be a filmmaker to criticize a movie
DL made some dumb facechecks, we point at him and say how dumb that was (it comes with the fame or being regarded as the best NA AD carry). We make our own dumb facechecks all the time, we realize they are dumb after the fact, DL probably realized his dumb facechecks were dumb, the world goes on.
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Germany24009 Posts
On November 30 2012 02:10 Slayer91 wrote:
Doublelift being dumb meme is highly overstated and when I watch him play he seems to really know his shit. Him saying graves was bad when nobody played him was probably him just stomping bad graves in lane and he says well that champ sucks herp derp.
doublelift getting caught afk farming is just something that happens sometimes compared to the 99% of the time where he's afk farming and doesn't get caught. I think he's gotten better at not getting caught. You can't blame him for not grouping much when he plays with CLG with like no leadership and they all want to afk farm and he's playing ad carry anyway and hotshot will probably just split push his lane if he doesn't get the farm himself.
Pro players being wrong is something that happens a lot. For example wickd theorycrafted the cost effectiveness of ghostblade and tried it a lot and then he realized it didn't work out as well in reality for various reasons.
Calling pros "dumb" is just ignorant as fuck and mechanics are just part of game understanding since for example skillshots rely watching opponents movement and predicting them and their reactions if you move closer to them etc etc. Positioning shouldn't count as mechanics either since it's just analysis of the enemies potential and what skill CDs they have up.
The only thing that should count as mechanics is last hitting skills and the ability to line skillshots where you want them and flash over walls and shit as far as im concerned.
that's essentially the point I was trying to make earlier this day when I typed ultra long poson my tiny Iphone when people called Doublelift a moron and 0% theory, only a few hours later I realized that half of them were trolling me because DBL 0% theory is an old meme and the other 50% just heavily dislikes him xD
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On November 30 2012 03:30 thenexusp wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 03:03 obesechicken13 wrote:On November 30 2012 02:15 TheYango wrote:
A point about PD+Nunu:
Vayne needs 26% bonus MS to hit the MS soft cap of 495 MS with Night Hunter (and 36% to hit it without Night Hunter). PD+Nunu is smooth together because the combination gives you exactly 27% with Blood Boil rank 5.
By and large, people underestimate how important the MS softcap is. Now that I think about it, 4.5% movespeed from runes is shit for gold efficacy. Which makes me wonder: why do I run them? I don't rush zeal on anyone but AD Kayle so it can't be that useful. If I want to go AD stacking it's pretty easy. If I want to go MS stacking it's pretty tough; beyond boots, if my champ doesn't like zeal I'm pretty stuck. It's especially bad for APs that don't use lichbane, they literally have no options for increased MS beyond boots. EDIT: also theorying the gold value of stats that don't appear on base items is also somewhat bogus. If there was a quint that was "On minion hit, 20% chance to deal 70 bonus damage" every jungler would pick up 3 in a heartbeat, even if you theory out based on the cost of madred's razors that this effect has a gold value of only 30g or so.
I understand that, but I'm saying that if an AP really valued ms that much they'd buy lichbane.
I probably shouldn't swap out the ms runes. I know there have been many times I've gotten 1-2 more autos off on kayle, or a q, or 6 ryze Qs simply because I had the runes for MS. I guess ms is binary in that you just want more relative ms to your opponent. More or less than that is worth little.
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On November 30 2012 03:47 thenexusp wrote:
wtf are people even arguing about anymore.
didn't we say the whole 2xlift is dumb meme is based on some dumb things he did a year ago and wasn't really related to his current performance
you don't need to be a high elo player to be able to criticize a pro, just like how you don't need to be a filmmaker to criticize a movie
DL made some dumb facechecks, we point at him and say how dumb that was (it comes with the fame or being regarded as the best NA AD carry). We make our own dumb facechecks all the time, we realize they are dumb after the fact, DL probably realized his dumb facechecks were dumb, the world goes on.
Actually yeah, someone did say it was a meme a page or two ago
reading too hard
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On November 30 2012 03:39 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 03:37 PrinceXizor wrote:On November 30 2012 03:24 wei2coolman wrote:On November 30 2012 02:32 PrinceXizor wrote:
Re doublelift is dumb. He's still on a team with hotshot.
question answered. With that logic, you'd be saying Chauster is dumb. This has been hotly debated in SC:BW and SC:2 forums, just because someone's rating is higher than someone else, doesn't mean their points all of a sudden have validity. A good point backed by reason, coming from any elo rating is still a good point backed by reason. Yep. lol i feel like being on a team w/ hotshot is dumb regardless of who you are. I dunno, Chauster has to provide enough brains throughout CLG to balance out HSGG, and Doublelift; all while remaining #2 in NA scene for S2. Pretty impressive imo. Say what you want about CLG, but they're still top tier in NA scene (whatever the fuck that means; cuz NA scene is pretty bad right now)
Oh no i'm not talking about game intelligence or anything. it's just stupid to put yourself on a team with hotshot who is not going anywhere and is clearly a limiting factor that your team will never advance past. Pretty much, why join a pro team that can never be the best.
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On November 30 2012 03:48 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 03:30 thenexusp wrote:On November 30 2012 03:03 obesechicken13 wrote:On November 30 2012 02:15 TheYango wrote:
A point about PD+Nunu:
Vayne needs 26% bonus MS to hit the MS soft cap of 495 MS with Night Hunter (and 36% to hit it without Night Hunter). PD+Nunu is smooth together because the combination gives you exactly 27% with Blood Boil rank 5.
By and large, people underestimate how important the MS softcap is. Now that I think about it, 4.5% movespeed from runes is shit for gold efficacy. Which makes me wonder: why do I run them? I don't rush zeal on anyone but AD Kayle so it can't be that useful. If I want to go AD stacking it's pretty easy. If I want to go MS stacking it's pretty tough; beyond boots, if my champ doesn't like zeal I'm pretty stuck. It's especially bad for APs that don't use lichbane, they literally have no options for increased MS beyond boots. EDIT: also theorying the gold value of stats that don't appear on base items is also somewhat bogus. If there was a quint that was "On minion hit, 20% chance to deal 70 bonus damage" every jungler would pick up 3 in a heartbeat, even if you theory out based on the cost of madred's razors that this effect has a gold value of only 30g or so. I understand that, but I'm saying that if an AP really valued ms that much they'd buy lichbane. I probably shouldn't swap out the ms runes. I know there have been many times I've gotten 1-2 more autos off on kayle, or a q, or 6 ryze Qs simply because I had the runes for MS. I guess ms is binary in that you just want more relative ms to your opponent. More or less than that is worth little.
I think MS is way more valuable on some mids than others - notably Ori, Ryze, Cassio. Basically anyone with spammable abilities and no gap closer. Having much higher MS at the expense of a measly 15 AP is huge.
And obviously MS quints are amazing on most junglers and many tops.
On November 30 2012 03:50 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 03:39 wei2coolman wrote:On November 30 2012 03:37 PrinceXizor wrote:On November 30 2012 03:24 wei2coolman wrote:On November 30 2012 02:32 PrinceXizor wrote:
Re doublelift is dumb. He's still on a team with hotshot.
question answered. With that logic, you'd be saying Chauster is dumb. This has been hotly debated in SC:BW and SC:2 forums, just because someone's rating is higher than someone else, doesn't mean their points all of a sudden have validity. A good point backed by reason, coming from any elo rating is still a good point backed by reason. Yep. lol i feel like being on a team w/ hotshot is dumb regardless of who you are. I dunno, Chauster has to provide enough brains throughout CLG to balance out HSGG, and Doublelift; all while remaining #2 in NA scene for S2. Pretty impressive imo. Say what you want about CLG, but they're still top tier in NA scene (whatever the fuck that means; cuz NA scene is pretty bad right now) Oh no i'm not talking about game intelligence or anything. it's just stupid to put yourself on a team with hotshot who is not going anywhere and is clearly a limiting factor that your team will never advance past. Pretty much, why join a pro team that can never be the best.
Why do GM's field teams that they know cannot win the championship? Why do players join those teams? Why do owners buy them?
Everyone wants to win, but winning isn't everything.
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On November 30 2012 03:50 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 03:39 wei2coolman wrote:On November 30 2012 03:37 PrinceXizor wrote:On November 30 2012 03:24 wei2coolman wrote:On November 30 2012 02:32 PrinceXizor wrote:
Re doublelift is dumb. He's still on a team with hotshot.
question answered. With that logic, you'd be saying Chauster is dumb. This has been hotly debated in SC:BW and SC:2 forums, just because someone's rating is higher than someone else, doesn't mean their points all of a sudden have validity. A good point backed by reason, coming from any elo rating is still a good point backed by reason. Yep. lol i feel like being on a team w/ hotshot is dumb regardless of who you are. I dunno, Chauster has to provide enough brains throughout CLG to balance out HSGG, and Doublelift; all while remaining #2 in NA scene for S2. Pretty impressive imo. Say what you want about CLG, but they're still top tier in NA scene (whatever the fuck that means; cuz NA scene is pretty bad right now) Oh no i'm not talking about game intelligence or anything. it's just stupid to put yourself on a team with hotshot who is not going anywhere and is clearly a limiting factor that your team will never advance past. Pretty much, why join a pro team that can never be the best.
Everyone who doesn't have talent to be the best please go home plox, Entire NA scene leaves.
Welp there goes 2 of my favorite teams.
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On November 30 2012 03:44 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 03:40 zulu_nation8 wrote:On November 30 2012 03:35 wei2coolman wrote:
That's implying that you don't understand the idea that AD's hit back at lower elo's.
You're talking about dumbass 500elo trash tier redditors.
I'm talking about reasonable TL posters, who obviously understand high level tactics/gameplay, despite not playing at that level.
On average, higher elo usually implies better understanding of the game, but that doesn't mean all of a sudden someone with lower elo's points are completely moot. I've played at every elo tier for extensive periods from 1100 on up to my high, if you think ADs lane the same way, and all harass as often you're delusional about the game. Thinking the average TL poster understands high level tactics/gameplay is also delusional. Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 03:42 UniversalSnip wrote:
wow i skipped pages and pages to get to something interesting and it's all people trying to find the nastiest thing they can say about doublelift (which is embarassing. A few high elo players calling him retarded and a swarm of questionably skilled players doing the same thing is kind of like xisor calling loci shitty, and a bunch of people with level seven accounts agreeing). Then bly posts and these people i don't give a fuck about form an instant lynch mob. To be honest, nobody cares whether you like him or not, nobody cares what his motivations are, and of course i'm not a mod but i'd like if it you please wouldn't piss on the forum, on it's members, on it's topics of discussion because it's what the club does. You guys act like a bunch of teenage girls. Where was this message when everyone was making fun of Elementz a few days ago? I think most of the people who are shittalking doublelift, and DL fans, they're just being facetious
Im certain i skipped the elementz discussion since don't remember it at all. That's what i do when the thread sucks, i let the current carry the bad pages away, but sometimes there are an awful lot of them. As for being facetious, that's a pretty weak out.
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On November 30 2012 03:53 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 03:50 PrinceXizor wrote:On November 30 2012 03:39 wei2coolman wrote:On November 30 2012 03:37 PrinceXizor wrote:On November 30 2012 03:24 wei2coolman wrote:On November 30 2012 02:32 PrinceXizor wrote:
Re doublelift is dumb. He's still on a team with hotshot.
question answered. With that logic, you'd be saying Chauster is dumb. This has been hotly debated in SC:BW and SC:2 forums, just because someone's rating is higher than someone else, doesn't mean their points all of a sudden have validity. A good point backed by reason, coming from any elo rating is still a good point backed by reason. Yep. lol i feel like being on a team w/ hotshot is dumb regardless of who you are. I dunno, Chauster has to provide enough brains throughout CLG to balance out HSGG, and Doublelift; all while remaining #2 in NA scene for S2. Pretty impressive imo. Say what you want about CLG, but they're still top tier in NA scene (whatever the fuck that means; cuz NA scene is pretty bad right now) Oh no i'm not talking about game intelligence or anything. it's just stupid to put yourself on a team with hotshot who is not going anywhere and is clearly a limiting factor that your team will never advance past. Pretty much, why join a pro team that can never be the best. Everyone who doesn't have talent to be the best please go home plox, Entire NA scene leaves. Welp there goes 2 of my favorite teams.
It's not that they lack the talent, they lack the work ethic. hotshot is entitled and blames his team. chauster blames his team. loco doesn't see his own mistakes and doublelift doesn't practice enough. LoL isn't a game where natural talent can prevent a team from being the best, it's all down to work. maybe replacing bot lanes until you get people with great chemistry. same with top and jungle.
TL;DR you can take 2 TLers with good chemistry bot lane 2 good chemistry TLers top and jungle and a random TLer mid and if everyone has a good work ethic and has the hours could be the best in world. LoL isn't Football, Basketball Hockey where genetics can dictate a massive portion of your play, and it's not refined enough like chess, go, ect that your genetics can eek you out enough of an advantage to be the best.
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