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On November 30 2012 03:48 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 03:30 thenexusp wrote:On November 30 2012 03:03 obesechicken13 wrote:On November 30 2012 02:15 TheYango wrote:
A point about PD+Nunu:
Vayne needs 26% bonus MS to hit the MS soft cap of 495 MS with Night Hunter (and 36% to hit it without Night Hunter). PD+Nunu is smooth together because the combination gives you exactly 27% with Blood Boil rank 5.
By and large, people underestimate how important the MS softcap is. Now that I think about it, 4.5% movespeed from runes is shit for gold efficacy. Which makes me wonder: why do I run them? I don't rush zeal on anyone but AD Kayle so it can't be that useful. If I want to go AD stacking it's pretty easy. If I want to go MS stacking it's pretty tough; beyond boots, if my champ doesn't like zeal I'm pretty stuck. It's especially bad for APs that don't use lichbane, they literally have no options for increased MS beyond boots. EDIT: also theorying the gold value of stats that don't appear on base items is also somewhat bogus. If there was a quint that was "On minion hit, 20% chance to deal 70 bonus damage" every jungler would pick up 3 in a heartbeat, even if you theory out based on the cost of madred's razors that this effect has a gold value of only 30g or so. I understand that, but I'm saying that if an AP really valued ms that much they'd buy lichbane. I probably shouldn't swap out the ms runes. I know there have been many times I've gotten 1-2 more autos off on kayle, or a q, or 6 ryze Qs simply because I had the runes for MS. I guess ms is binary in that you just want more relative ms to your opponent. More or less than that is worth little.
If you discount the mana portion of lich bane (a lot of champs aren't going to need the mana esp. with the popularity of athene's lately) and the sheen proc, subtracting the gold costs of AP and MR from lich bane still leaves 1370 gold. It's possible for a champ to value MS but not at that level of expense. (If you actually value 7%MS at 1370 then the quints look really, really good!) You'd still want to be an AP mid that likes the sheen proc to get a lich bane even if you normally want more MS.
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I love all progamers from balls to toyz. I think it would be nice if people learned some etiquette when talking about LoL.
If someone in solo queue does something terrible like suicide into tower in a fail gank, he did something bad. You can even call him bad in chat over and over again. But please don't forget all the times you've done the same thing and that every player from lv1 to progamers have done the same in nomals and world finals.
If you see someone do something "bad" in a tourney game, you can absolutely call him bad. But don't forget that every progamer plays at a level you will never reach, and you and everyone you've ever played with would've done the same given the situation. It's okay to get as nasty as you want about progamesr if you understand the above, which should be self-evident. But it seems like the majority of the forum genuinely has no idea what level they play at, and actually thinks they understand the game better than the people they criticize, which is absolutely hilarious and even more hilarious that people would get offended when someone points out otherwise.
Oh and I've played vs dan dinh going 0-10 jungle fiora rush tiamat in solo queue, and ya it was hilarious. But I don't actually think he would do the same in a tourney and I don't think he's actually worse than anyone here. So to summarize, I didn't think that game was representative of his skill, but apparently you do.
My whole point is also that there are no objectively good points in this game. There can be good points agreed upon by all people who have the same experience, but not by all (maybe unless it's really basic). By extension when two people of vastly different skill levels argue there may genuinely exist a gap of experience that makes it so no one is right. Hence just because a higher elo disagrees with your build doesn't mean it's not optimal for lower elo games. I've made this point over and over but you guys keep saying lower elo's way of playing can apply to all. Surprisingly as solo queue games get higher, people tend to be more open minded, the classic "meta-sheep" is all low and mid elo.
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United States47024 Posts
On November 30 2012 03:38 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 03:37 PrinceXizor wrote:On November 30 2012 03:24 wei2coolman wrote:On November 30 2012 02:32 PrinceXizor wrote:
Re doublelift is dumb. He's still on a team with hotshot.
question answered. With that logic, you'd be saying Chauster is dumb. This has been hotly debated in SC:BW and SC:2 forums, just because someone's rating is higher than someone else, doesn't mean their points all of a sudden have validity. A good point backed by reason, coming from any elo rating is still a good point backed by reason. Yep. lol i feel like being on a team w/ hotshot is dumb regardless of who you are. They are in CLG for the material aspect of it, did you see them showers, them beds and them houses they gets ? It's all thanks to clgmoneygg. Would you leave to play with aphromo in a team that change name every 2 weeks cauz sponsors doesn't want to invest in an unknown brand ?
In fairness, if CLG - Hotshot all jumped ship and joined another team, that team wouldn't be an "unknown brand" for very long.
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In regards to season 3, I think Philo is still going to be pretty good if you're a champ that has some sort of sustain. Losing out on health regen always sucks, but it has a tiny bit more mana regen and is 100g cheaper, so probably still "core" on supports? I never really thought it would fall out of style, but there was a lot of moaning about it's nerf. I'll probably still buy it on GP if I'm playing passive, since more Oranges means I don't really need the hp5.
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On November 30 2012 02:32 PrinceXizor wrote:
TL;DR you can take 2 TLers with good chemistry bot lane 2 good chemistry TLers top and jungle and a random TLer mid and if everyone has a good work ethic and has the hours could be the best in world. LoL isn't Football, Basketball Hockey where genetics can dictate a massive portion of your play, and it's not refined enough like chess, go, ect that your genetics can eek you out enough of an advantage to be the best.
This has to be wrong. People used to believe that mechanics didn't matter that much in Starcraft either, but they give you a huge advantage in both laning wars and teamfights. Remember that Artosis thread about "build memory"? The ability to last hit on command while poking and controlling the minion wave, know what positioning is correct and having the ability to do it while stutterstepping, the presence of mind to click the exact target to CC/dps in a chaotic teamfight while not overextending: all of these require really good mechanics so you can do them while thinking about the fight. Look at how people screw up ults ALL THE TIME, I don't think it's just because they suck with the character.
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United States47024 Posts
On November 30 2012 05:05 Pooshlmer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 02:32 PrinceXizor wrote:
TL;DR you can take 2 TLers with good chemistry bot lane 2 good chemistry TLers top and jungle and a random TLer mid and if everyone has a good work ethic and has the hours could be the best in world. LoL isn't Football, Basketball Hockey where genetics can dictate a massive portion of your play, and it's not refined enough like chess, go, ect that your genetics can eek you out enough of an advantage to be the best. This has to be wrong. People used to believe that mechanics didn't matter that much in Starcraft either, but they give you a huge advantage in both laning wars and teamfights. Remember that Artosis thread about "build memory"? The ability to last hit on command while poking and controlling the minion wave, know what positioning is correct and having the ability to do it while stutterstepping, the presence of mind to click the exact target to CC/dps in a chaotic teamfight while not overextending: all of these require really good mechanics so you can do them while thinking about the fight. Look at how people screw up ults ALL THE TIME, I don't think it's just because they suck with the character.
You're implying that mechanics are dictated entirely by talent, which isn't the case.
Mechanics is in large part training and muscle memory.
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I'm saying that people are deluding themselves into thinking that, for example, Lustboy is godlike just because he practices SO much harder than all the other supports.
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On November 30 2012 04:57 Requizen wrote:
In regards to season 3, I think Philo is still going to be pretty good if you're a champ that has some sort of sustain. Losing out on health regen always sucks, but it has a tiny bit more mana regen and is 100g cheaper, so probably still "core" on supports? I never really thought it would fall out of style, but there was a lot of moaning about it's nerf. I'll probably still buy it on GP if I'm playing passive, since more Oranges means I don't really need the hp5.
The problem is the Philo changes haven't occurred in a vacuum. In isolation the nerf to Philo wouldn't be enough to stop supports from grabbing it, but with Crystalline Flask for regen, Sightstone for wards, and so many useful items that build out of things that aren't Philo, fitting it into a build is going to be a problem.
Supports looking to have lots of items late game might go Sightstone + Philo + Kage's, but that's a lot of investment for items which provide little in the way of stats.
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On November 30 2012 05:14 Pooshlmer wrote:
I'm saying that people are deluding themselves into thinking that, for example, Lustboy is godlike just because he practices SO much harder than all the other supports.
....? that IS why he's so good. because he works so hard at it? he didn't just decide to play LoL one day and win a tournament. all genetics does for LoL it set you at a different starting level. your individual skill cap isn't the limiting factor in LoL.
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Now that was beautifully played by m5, perfect eve ult.
Edit:: zzz wrong topic.
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On November 30 2012 05:18 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 05:14 Pooshlmer wrote:
I'm saying that people are deluding themselves into thinking that, for example, Lustboy is godlike just because he practices SO much harder than all the other supports. ....? that IS why he's so good. because he works so hard at it? he didn't just decide to play LoL one day and win a tournament. all genetics does for LoL it set you at a different starting level. your individual skill cap isn't the limiting factor in LoL.
I'd argue that genetics affects the *rate* as which you improve with practice. The best practice really really hard, and improves just a bit more than the really good people who practice really really hard.
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Strategy question: Doing ranked 5s with friends for the first time (low elo for all intents and purposes). Bot is even more or less with kills and cs. Mid is pretty passive. I ganked top to give him a kill over his opponent and I'm jungling decently. I wish I knew the times better but probably 12min in the game or so top is down 4-1 kills and bot is getting ganked while I try to help top who is getting shoved out of lane repeatedly.
What is the appropriate response from the team? I wanted to force something at mid before things got out of hand top but I really wasn't sure what to say other than we were outplayed. If you need specifics like champs I can provide if that would dictate what you would do.
My analysis was mid needed a stronger presence (really it's player related which is fine I can accept who i'm playing with  ) And top was probably counterpicked and built suboptimally (I'm being nice hehe) I just want to know what to do when you're in those situations. Strongest player on the team was playing the AD.
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United States47024 Posts
On November 30 2012 05:25 Sandster wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 05:18 PrinceXizor wrote:On November 30 2012 05:14 Pooshlmer wrote:
I'm saying that people are deluding themselves into thinking that, for example, Lustboy is godlike just because he practices SO much harder than all the other supports. ....? that IS why he's so good. because he works so hard at it? he didn't just decide to play LoL one day and win a tournament. all genetics does for LoL it set you at a different starting level. your individual skill cap isn't the limiting factor in LoL. I'd argue that genetics affects the *rate* as which you improve with practice. The best practice really really hard, and improves just a bit more than the really good people who practice really really hard.
But the overall level of LoL play isn't so high that is a limiting factor yet.
BW only really hit that point after like 7-8 years (at the point where you could say TBLS were dominating on the basis of their talent AND their practice). LoL isn't anywhere close to that yet.
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Generally if your laning is suffering that much either shift to teamfights if you think you can win or have him take jungle while you gank more. In either case you need to look at the power curve of each team and decide whether to go aggressive or defensive. Yeah, that means if you're worse late game you're pretty screwed.
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On November 30 2012 05:40 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 05:25 Sandster wrote:On November 30 2012 05:18 PrinceXizor wrote:On November 30 2012 05:14 Pooshlmer wrote:
I'm saying that people are deluding themselves into thinking that, for example, Lustboy is godlike just because he practices SO much harder than all the other supports. ....? that IS why he's so good. because he works so hard at it? he didn't just decide to play LoL one day and win a tournament. all genetics does for LoL it set you at a different starting level. your individual skill cap isn't the limiting factor in LoL. I'd argue that genetics affects the *rate* as which you improve with practice. The best practice really really hard, and improves just a bit more than the really good people who practice really really hard. But the overall level of LoL play isn't so high that is a limiting factor yet. BW only really hit that point after like 7-8 years (at the point where you could say TBLS were dominating on the basis of their talent AND their practice). LoL isn't anywhere close to that yet.
BW was the first real esport, practice regimens were really loose for a long time. People know more about what matters now.
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The higher level you go, the less often laners will straight up die 1v1 in lane. But at low(er) levels players don't know how much they can trade and tend to die, so lanes are extremely snowbally, and that can quickly get out of hand.
You need to know your team. If you realize your top lane is your weakest lane, either repeatedly gank (2-3 man gank top), pull lane swaps, or give up the turret while pushing dragon/turrets elsewhere on the map. The worst thing you can do, especially if you know he will make bad engages and die 1v1, is to hope he catches up on his own. You simply can't play it like a "normal" lane, i.e. if neither jungler goes top then top will be even on farm after 10 min.
At low elo, mids that roam/gank well like Diana/Eve/Ahri are absolutely disgusting. Also, snowballing top is very powerful because many top lanes are much more binary than other lanes, due to the long lane and prevalence of melee/gap closers.
EDIT: You can sacrifice one lane for 1-2 others, but obviously at some point it boils down to individual skill. If you're repeatedly playing against significantly more skilled opponents in lane, there's nothing you as a jungler can do when 2-3 lanes simultaneously fail whenever you're not around and the other team can start invading your jungle at will.
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On November 30 2012 05:44 Sandster wrote:
The higher level you go, the less often laners will straight up die 1v1 in lane. But at low(er) levels players don't know how much they can trade and tend to die, so lanes are extremely snowbally, and that can quickly get out of hand.
You need to know your team. If you realize your top lane is your weakest lane, either repeatedly gank (2-3 man gank top), pull lane swaps, or give up the turret while pushing dragon/turrets elsewhere on the map. The worst thing you can do, especially if you know he will make bad engages and die 1v1, is to hope he catches up on his own. You simply can't play it like a "normal" lane, i.e. if neither jungler goes top then top will be even on farm after 10 min.
At low elo, mids that roam/gank well like Diana/Eve/Ahri are absolutely disgusting. Also, snowballing top is very powerful because many top lanes are much more binary than other lanes, due to the long lane and prevalence of melee/gap closers.
In tournaments players don't seem to take very many risks so if Jax gets a kill pre 6, then the person he's playing against will end up with 2 levels less and 40-50 cs less but no kills will go to either side by the time laning ends. That's still a dramatic snowball.
If a player dies, they give up hope of coming back in lane.
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On November 30 2012 06:09 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 05:44 Sandster wrote:
The higher level you go, the less often laners will straight up die 1v1 in lane. But at low(er) levels players don't know how much they can trade and tend to die, so lanes are extremely snowbally, and that can quickly get out of hand.
You need to know your team. If you realize your top lane is your weakest lane, either repeatedly gank (2-3 man gank top), pull lane swaps, or give up the turret while pushing dragon/turrets elsewhere on the map. The worst thing you can do, especially if you know he will make bad engages and die 1v1, is to hope he catches up on his own. You simply can't play it like a "normal" lane, i.e. if neither jungler goes top then top will be even on farm after 10 min.
At low elo, mids that roam/gank well like Diana/Eve/Ahri are absolutely disgusting. Also, snowballing top is very powerful because many top lanes are much more binary than other lanes, due to the long lane and prevalence of melee/gap closers. In tournaments players don't seem to take very many risks so if Jax gets a kill pre 6, then the person he's playing against will end up with 2 levels less and 40-50 cs less but no kills will go to either side by the time laning ends. That's still a dramatic snowball. If a player dies, they give up hope of coming back in lane.
In IPL just earlier today Jax got a kill in lane pre-6 against Rengar and was 10+cs ahead (Blaze's jax got a kill vs TD's rengar), and Rengar still won the lane. It's definitely possible to come back.
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On November 30 2012 06:09 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 05:44 Sandster wrote:
The higher level you go, the less often laners will straight up die 1v1 in lane. But at low(er) levels players don't know how much they can trade and tend to die, so lanes are extremely snowbally, and that can quickly get out of hand.
You need to know your team. If you realize your top lane is your weakest lane, either repeatedly gank (2-3 man gank top), pull lane swaps, or give up the turret while pushing dragon/turrets elsewhere on the map. The worst thing you can do, especially if you know he will make bad engages and die 1v1, is to hope he catches up on his own. You simply can't play it like a "normal" lane, i.e. if neither jungler goes top then top will be even on farm after 10 min.
At low elo, mids that roam/gank well like Diana/Eve/Ahri are absolutely disgusting. Also, snowballing top is very powerful because many top lanes are much more binary than other lanes, due to the long lane and prevalence of melee/gap closers. In tournaments players don't seem to take very many risks so if Jax gets a kill pre 6, then the person he's playing against will end up with 2 levels less and 40-50 cs less but no kills will go to either side by the time laning ends. That's still a dramatic snowball. If a player dies, they give up hope of coming back in lane.
Main thing is you'll need a couple successful ganks to stop the snowball. The first gank will only put you even, and being even with Jax isn't a good thing because of his scaling. It's often better to let the top laner stay behind and help lanes that are even, because if you can put them ahead you don't need to go there any more.
Not saying it's impossible to come back through outplaying or otherwise, but helping losing lanes is only good if they stand a chance of getting back into it.
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On November 30 2012 06:12 Sandster wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 06:09 obesechicken13 wrote:On November 30 2012 05:44 Sandster wrote:
The higher level you go, the less often laners will straight up die 1v1 in lane. But at low(er) levels players don't know how much they can trade and tend to die, so lanes are extremely snowbally, and that can quickly get out of hand.
You need to know your team. If you realize your top lane is your weakest lane, either repeatedly gank (2-3 man gank top), pull lane swaps, or give up the turret while pushing dragon/turrets elsewhere on the map. The worst thing you can do, especially if you know he will make bad engages and die 1v1, is to hope he catches up on his own. You simply can't play it like a "normal" lane, i.e. if neither jungler goes top then top will be even on farm after 10 min.
At low elo, mids that roam/gank well like Diana/Eve/Ahri are absolutely disgusting. Also, snowballing top is very powerful because many top lanes are much more binary than other lanes, due to the long lane and prevalence of melee/gap closers. In tournaments players don't seem to take very many risks so if Jax gets a kill pre 6, then the person he's playing against will end up with 2 levels less and 40-50 cs less but no kills will go to either side by the time laning ends. That's still a dramatic snowball. If a player dies, they give up hope of coming back in lane. In IPL just earlier today Jax got a kill in lane pre-6 against Rengar and was 10+cs ahead (Blaze's jax got a kill vs TD's rengar), and Rengar still won the lane. It's definitely possible to come back.
I think that's more so Rengar being broken as fuck, rather than a top lane coming back. 
The only real way to win back top lane is. if the enemy toplane starts roaming with advantage, and you stay toplane farm up, and hopefully your team doesn't get raped by the roaming enemy toplaner.
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EPT
